Open/Closed Kinetic Chains

[hardy_practice]

Yes. It's called coincidence.

Being pedantic more like!  

From the OED:
Belly is ME - the ly in belly appears around the 14th century.  1340 Hampole. ye breast with ye bely.  Gelé also ME from the same period.  Hardly conclusive but who gives a hoot?

[hardy_practice]

Depends on what you mean. Actually, the "jelly" idea is not very functional when we have to make movements in succession. There should be tonus and there should be allertness all the time. However hard this is to imagine, real "relaxation" in action causes tension in the same parts you are trying to relax and spreading all over until you are basically unable to accomplish anything at all.

The belly is an interchange - it receives and cushions shocks from outside (I mean via fingers/hands arms) but also turns those around and sends a reactive impulse back.  It's the ultimate relaxation/tension transmuter.  Not sure about your last point - how can something be relaxed and active?

[anamnesis]

@ anamnesis

Very good thoughts. In order to understand the idea of energy flowing even better, though, I think we might first want to get rid of the fixed-fulcrums-in-the-body kind of ideas that seem to plague pedagogical thinking a bit too much as if we were dealing with weight lifting (or weight pushing in this case) and not with the art of playing an instrument that doesn't really require force?

To my mind, it's this kind of thinking ("you have to fix this to move that or to transfer something else") that causes injury because the body doesn't really seem to work that way. It seems to me that the only fixed point in piano playing is the piano bench on the floor; the rest is alignment and balance of a very flexible body structure adaptable to any new situation that might occur. If we understand that, then closed kinetic chains (holding one or more notes on the keybed, for example) are suddenly not so harmful anymore and there is no need to be tense, neither in the pelvis, nor in the shoulders, the elbows, or the wrists. What do you think?

I agree, it's just that if you naturally use the center to periphery orientation of movement where more distal parts are moved as the result of other things moving via the kinetic chain, it becomes easier so figure how the flow of the larger body parts to the smaller.

However, in terms of the closed chain, you actually have to figure how you have close that contact (the fingers are obviously the point of contact that closes the chain), which is where Whiteside is lacking in terms of writing about it.  She presumed everyone to already have adequate finger technique, and only indirectly wrote about what you have to do.  At the very least from her writings it clear, that limp dead fingers are not part of the technique she was trying to espouse.  They are used to deliver the skeletal power of the rest of the body, and obviously dead fingers cannot do that.  What she was against, was them guiding the horizontal progression of the piece, and "reaching" for the keys.

My understanding is that with her approach, movement at the piano is far closer to dance and choreography then it is to weight lifting.  I've spoken to a student of Rosoff's (the one most directly continuing Whiteside's work) at one point, and that is how they described it.  

In terms of injury, I believe these things do tend to naturally minimize the things that cause it, but as mentioned before, no matter how healthy you move, the body does have limits and pianists are naturally inclined toward RSI.  

EDIT:

Outlining oddly enough provides a solution, because it allows us to work on different levels of the piece and allows us to progress without working the same level of stress on the same muscle groups day in and out.  

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

'However hard this is to imagine, real "relaxation" in action causes tension in the same parts you are trying to relax'

is the bit I didn't get esp. real "relaxation" in action - what's that?

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

P.S.: This is probably too difficult for me to explain. I hope somebody else will try.

No.  I get it, even if I do only play 'simple waltzes'.

[anamnesis]

You can completely relax BETWEEN musical phrases but not within the "action" of sounding one phrase, motif or pattern. Really relaxing would break the flow of movement and cause an entirely different impression of the rhythmical image of that phrase. There is also the risk of becoming flaccid and of note-wise playing without expression.
P.S.: This is probably too difficult for me to explain. I hope somebody else will try.

I think you are being very clear, and this does articulate very well why this relaxation language as a pedagogical imagery tool can be taken too far. (Other than the obvious, true relaxation would cause to flop onto the floor) 

Extra tension is the result of improper flow, balance/alignment, and the lack of appropriate connection with piano (and taking advantage of the provided counter momentum). 

[timothy42b]

I have a cat and I observe her a lot and learn from her. What she does when she gets up is stretching. Then she starts moving, always alert and exerting just as much energy as necessary for the quickly changing tasks at hand she sets herself, immediately going to lower levels of energy when the job is done. That's a state we should try to achieve: move like the instinctive animal in us and not interfere with rationalities.

There is something instantly recognizable when a cat snaps into predator mode, intent on some prey we may not even see.  The posture is little if any different from the previous moment but suddenly the intent is clear. 

But back to rationalities and flowing movement for a sec.  There's another factor here.  Humans don't stand and move awkwardly and inefficiently just because of bad habits.  Posture is a good example.  Bad habits are an influence, but the prime cause is lack of muscular fitness.  Weakness in various muscle groups causes us to be unable to maintain correct posture and relaxed coordinated motions, and attempting to address posture or motion first is not sufficient. 

At the risk of opening another rabbit hole, there are large groups of instrumentalists and singers who have the same discussions about body mechanics but complicate it with physiologically impossible theories about breathing.  Kinetic chains are straightforward compared to how singers and wind instrument players think the air works. 

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

 Posture is a good example.  Bad habits are an influence, but the prime cause is lack of muscular fitness.  Weakness in various muscle groups causes us to be unable to maintain correct posture and relaxed coordinated motions, and attempting to address posture or motion first is not sufficient.  

Really?  My experience is that the more muscular the more able to retain a poor posture.  A good posture is a matter of recruiting the right muscles not all and sundry.

the most important task in developing the piano player's apparatus is to require the ability to focus energy and attention onto the FINGERTIPS without tensing up higher up. .

And that requires excellent posture.

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

But not focus on that posture on the part of the player.

Now I am going to be contentious: good posture is not 100% natural and, like piano playing, some elements are counter-intuitive. i.e. it's learned.

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

You ask a lot of questions and I'm in the middle of doing my yoga.  I'll just say this: there are two ways to play an instrument - one that assists you gaining/maintaining good posture and one that inhibits.  90 odd percent do the latter.

[hardy_practice]

How high would you say the percentage of "unnatural" posture is as compared to the stuff we can do quite naturally? Does that warrant the kind of wrong and negative attention it is usually given? Why can't we "learn" it ourselves out of necessity in the context that requires adaptation?

Not sure about the first sentence.  Lots of posters like to say there are different ways  to play the piano dependent on an individual's anatomy.  I'm not sure, but I do know when it comes to posture there is a most efficient poise - a physical attitude most suited to physical tasks.  Did you observe yourself that muscles can only contract?  Did you observe for yourself that the two distal finger joints are operated from the forearm?  I doubt it.  It's learned because the body's pretty much counter-intuitive.  There's nothing there intended to be 'user serviceable'.  

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

Much of it comes down to helping the student to good posture through instrumental practice.  Check out on youtube how many kid violinists sway back! How ya gonna fix that? - what they are doing is the natural intuitive response.

[dima_76557]

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[timothy42b]

I used to think like that too some time ago but I am gradually changing my mind. If we take this idea to the extreme, then this would imply that we first have to become sportsmen in order to move a piano key and play something in mezzo forte, but prodigies and Suzuki children prove that that is not true.

I'm not sure those are good examples.  Children start out pretty fit, or at least did until the recent electronic explosion.  I have a story about subduing one that I'll tell sometime.

I also think that in the old days musicians probably did a great deal more manual labor or at least walked from place to place than we do now.  It might be that a modern human is so unfit we really DO have to exercise like a sportsman in order to play piano or do other activities our grandparents would have thought simple.

[hardy_practice]

It's fuzzy but most of the kids here are swaying back:

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

I don't see that as a problem, actually. They'll learn in time to control that. They are simply experiencing the power of natural rhythm. That's what makes them sway. It would be worse if they were just sawing or scraping without expressing anything at all.

and the girl in the yellow here:

Not swaying to the side - a permanent swaying back.  And they won't 'learn' their way out of it.

and sadly half the kids here, though it looks like a good lesson to me:

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

and this one is so sad!  What a good posture the boy has till the teacher adjusts his violin!

  Love the faces

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

No. He would have swayed back anyway - the teacher should have addressed it.  Point is, how would you fix it?

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

Here's one here whose posture/playing is excellent, but the kids are ruining their postures nevertheless! Example isn't the answer.

Here the girl in grey is swaying back - made worse as the teacher gets her to hold the violin high.  

So, how would you teach a child to a) hold the violin high but b) not sway back?

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

These children are obviously imitating - what else have they got?  I thought your answer was 'concentrating energy in the fingertip' .  I don't see how that helps them group or solo (and I've illustrated swaying back in both)

[dima_76557]

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[timothy42b]

I can't check the videos until later.

But we should not rule out the possibility that there some instruments designed for sound but not for ergonomics that CANNOT be played with optimal posture.

I have been reading Becoming a Supple Leopard
https://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Supple-Leopard-Preventing-Performance/dp/1936608588

which has some interesting, and new to me, points about hip and joint stabilization, among other things.  He does not use the word flexibility but prefers mobility.  

[hardy_practice]

As I see it now (may change during the course of time), the most important task in developing the piano player's apparatus is to require the ability to focus energy and attention onto the FINGERTIPS without tensing up higher up. If we cannot focus energy towards our fingertips, the problems you are talking about become simply more apparent and tension starts everywhere, locking joints in order to compensate for those weaknesses. Piano playing then becomes like an unheard off physically heavy task, which it is not.

Quite why the above only applies to piano is beyond me.  Never mind.

So, how would you fix sway back again?  Maybe even in a pianist?

Tim, the book looks pricey.  I'll try inter-library loan.

[timothy42b]

Tim, the book looks pricey.  I'll try inter-library loan.

Yup, that's how I got it.  I'm one of the local library's best interlibrary loan customers.

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

 Simply tell them to sit or stand more straight and they'll know what you're talking about.

You win the Bogus Prize with that one.  Telling anyone to sit/stand up straight is the worst thing you can do!

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

Here's how you play the violin: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/betsy-polatin/how-to-really-stand-up-st_1_b_4674588.html

Add to that your 'focus energy and attention onto the FINGERTIPS' and you're well on your way to being a master.

Notice she mentions actors.  We all watch TV and figure we must look like that.  No, they're trained - we're (maybe not including me IMHO) hideous!  Just take a look outside.

edit: just read some of Betsy's book.  Looks good - I ordered a copy.

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

Sweet dreams.  Don't forget- chest out, chin up! 

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

You create a topic, provoke people into phrasing something not entirely correctly, and then take on a parenting attitude.

Me with the patronizing attitude??  Sorry, don't get 'phrasing something not entirely correctly'.

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

I accidentally said "sit or stand up straight" in the context of violin playing and I didn't get time even to correct it before you attack with a yes - patronizing - remark, although I wouldn't really know the right command to make them change their positions.

It's surprising to me that you question me on a subject I know nothing about.

All teachers teach posture - whether they know it or not.  I suppose if you're never going to help anyone then you don't need to know.  Sheesh, the 'sit or stand up straight' is what everybody thinks is all that's necessary.  Otherwise we'd all have perfect posture.   I shouldn't take things so personally, especially from someone with an invisible tense thumb who only plays 'simple waltzes'.

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

Yeh, with the pretty advanced you're more or less stuck with what you're given.  That is, until they get injured.  Have you attended master classes where the teacher is really frustrated with the unhealthy playing?  I have many times, and obviously the teacher has to let it go.

[dima_76557]

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[hardy_practice]

They're all too busy on Facebook over here.

[sashaco]

Since cats and sprinters have been brought up in various discussions of relaxation and tension, I will venture an analogy to my area of expertise and in doing so attempt to address Dima's very reasonable objection to the idea that we should all be athletes rather than musicians.
The thing about cats is that they are not self-conscious.  They are fully "in the moment", indeed, not even conscious that there IS a moment.  The cat doesn't wonder, "What happens if I mess this pounce up? " or "Is this even the right pounce or should I be doing it more like Brendel?"  The cat is fully relaxed "between phrases" as it were, and only prepares the muscles in response to the prey, the music, to continue an admittedly strained analogy.
The BEST athletes are somewhat like cats.  They are so fully engaged in the activity that their minds, and therefore their bodies, have no space for extraneous tension.  David Foster Wallace, writing about Tracy Austin, waxes hilarious on his own convoluted mental processes in going to strike a tennis ball and compares his tension to the purity and singularity of purpose in the mind of a championship player.  Tennis players and other athletes often use the word "unconscious" to describe other athletes, or even themselves at their best.  I still remember a squash match I played in 1985 in which for a game and a half I destroyed a very strong player only to collapse IN THE MIDDLE OF A SINGLE SWING,  as the thought crossed my mind, " Don't hit that tricky shot, you've got a big lead, play it safe."  I began to think about the process instead of listening to the music.
Racket players  (others as well) use a split step at the exact instant their opponent is striking the ball.  They prepare the muscles to move and that preparation is a springboard to action.  BUT, prepare too soon and it creates tension that interferes with timing.  Here is a clip of two squash players, Ramy Ashour and Gregory Gaultier.

  As many commentators have noted, Ramy plays with supreme unconsciousness- he is always listening to the music.  Greg is a great player, no doubt, but is not nearly as relaxed as Ramy.  If you watch this clip, watch their posture between shots.  Ramy (in purple) looks like he's standing on a street corner until the precise moment at which Greg's racket hits the ball.  Greg looks as though he is "preparing to prepare."  If you do watch, try to watch the whole thing. At least watch the point at 7:12. (Just for fun, here is another clip, perhaps the most watched point on the internet, though I prefer one Ramy played in Qatar a couple of years ago.

)

Dima, I would argue that in many respects the athlete and the musician are not so far apart.  Too much time spent thinking about the physical action takes away  from the ultimate goal.