Open/Closed Kinetic Chains

[hardy_practice]

These came up in a recent thread.  Who knows about them?  Here's the wiki pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_kinetic_chain_exercises   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_kinetic_chain_exercises

Something tells me lower-arm-held-up-by-the-upper-arm playing is 'open' whilst extreme arm weight (very loud, involving upper arm muscles) would be 'closed'.  Non-verbose responses welcomed!

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

Shamelessly googling here: https://www.acefitness.org/blog/2929/what-is-a-kinetic-chain

Thanks Dima, I'll check that out.  At what level of force does open become closed do we think?

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

Initially I think definitions are more the order of the day:

According to their creator, Dr Steindler: "We designate an open kinetic chain a combination in which the terminal joint is free..... A closed kinetic chain, on the other hand, is one in which the terminal joint meets with some considerable external resistance which prohibits or restrains its free motion."

Where does your thinking fit with the above?

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

The keybed doesn't allow you to go any deeper than you already are, perhaps? I would say that's a pretty considerable external resistance.

That's if you keybed with 'considerable' force.  I would think the keys (that 3/8ths of an inch of descent) would not come under the description 'considerable external resistance'.

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

Please watch the Katsaris clip already and stop theoreticizing.

Now that comes out as rather rude.   When I saw it was over an hour long I'm afraid I bottled out.  I've had my own master teachers, thank you very much, and know exactly what he's saying.  Initially in this thread it would be nice to establish some definitions - you're not helping with your insistence on talking about tone right of the bat.

[dima_76557]

-

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

I'm sorry. It wasn't meant like that. I meant that theoreticizing about things one has no personal experience with is kind of useless.

Since when?

Science is not my hobby, sorry. The only thing that really matters to me between life and death is music.

Fine but do you think before you shuffle off this mortal coil you'd like to help establish (just for this thread) where/how open becomes closed?  Jut so that the thread doesn't spiral off OT?

[hardy_practice]

The fragment of interest to you lasts no more than 2 minutes from the moment I set the time at.

and I have to get another computer out!

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

I added a new message higher up. I have to go.

Yeh, I got another computer out - this had better be good.

Here's Mr Katsaris bit:


Scale first time only fingers, 2nd with body - no difference and 3rd with body - as you can see (and hear) he just plays louder.

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

You think there is a difference in Mr Katsaris' scales?  Pretty much OT to this thread anyway - it's about (initially) some kind of agreed upon definition on open vs closed kinetic chains.  How or whether they contribute to 'tone' can easily come later.   

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

The data are digitalized (=doctored) through the YouTube system.

but you're the one who posted the link??

And how are you going to measure "kinetic energy" anyway whenever every other poster will tell you something about their personal experience?

Don't know.  I'm hoping there will be posters who have a useful contribution.  Sorry to embarrass you (not).   

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

In which case this didn't help: " This is basically the same as "closing the kinetic chain and it is noticeable in the timbre of the instrument.  But I take your point.  Is it closing in the Dr Steindler sense though?

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

and it is noticeable in the timbre of the instrument...When you are present in the room, of course, not through a YouTube clip.

a)How will we ever know? b) Is it closing in the Dr Steindler sense though?

I think what you are saying is that by exerting the same amount of kinetic energy but from a different source in the body, the tone is different?  I thought many years ago the answer to that would be to have the pianist sat on a highly sensitive scales.   The amount of weight displaced for each type of tone should be identical but the tones not. Went so far to ask the PE dept if they had such a thing - you'd think in this day and age! but no.  I doubt your theory would stand though.

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

These hardly perceivable noises carry haptic-auditory info that give an impression about the quality of the product. Piano playing is much the same. What is insignificant on a digital recording becomes a major issue in a life performance in a hall with good acoustics.

Granted, but you don't say which haptic-auditory info are desirable and which not?  and how could you?  and if you can't reproduce it you blame the room or the listener!  Very much metaphysics so far.

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

. First one needs to register and admit that it's there

Well no.  It is there as in ' These hardly perceivable noises'.  It's have they any effect on the listener is the question.

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

I say yes wholeheartedly, but who am I? It's up to science to investigate the phenomenon if anyone is interested in investing in such research.

So IYHO?  Can we get back to does Mr Katsaris move from open to closed chain?  and if so when?

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

It's my opinion that what Katsaris does is a practical example of that phenomenon. Mr. Katsaris himself might not know or realize that that is exactly what he is doing.

Does he go from open to closed?  Can you explain?

[nyiregyhazi]

These came up in a recent thread.  Who knows about them?  Here's the wiki pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_kinetic_chain_exercises   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_kinetic_chain_exercises

Something tells me lower-arm-held-up-by-the-upper-arm playing is 'open' whilst extreme arm weight (very loud, involving upper arm muscles) would be 'closed'.  Non-verbose responses welcomed!

It's impossible to discuss on your terms as they founded upon fallacies. Firstly, nobody plays legato without closing the chain. It's idiotic to think that legato playing involves stopping keys in the fraction of a second between escapement and keybed. And with coasting momentum, slowing the finger doesn't even stop things in time. It just means a key bounces and then stops in a very unstable and insecure position that gives no physical security and no predictability. Or, much of the time, the key doesn't even move enough to sound, as we so regularly hear in your films. See my most recent blog post for illustration of the reasons why ANY intent to pull back (rather than have solely positive intentions of completion) sacrifices control over the result. It takes an utter buffoon to think either that keybeds are so dangerous as to need to be avoided or that it's even possible to do so in serious pianism. Given that fingers ALWAYS bring keys to keybeds and ALWAYS stay in contact with keys that are being held (to stop them rising back up), the only open chain is only when the keys are not being depressed at all. In fact, even resting the hand on keys without depressing them has enough resistance to close a chain to a notable degree.

Secondly, you make a very foolish polarisation. Connecting to the keybeds has zero to do with requiring notable force. It requires the key to reach the bottom and stay there- which a few pound coins make enough force for. You're making a dumb strawman to argue against, because you can't find a strong enough argument to put against what happens in the reality of those who ground keys with intent to land them safely and securely, yet without wasted force. Regardless, all playing that involves depressed keys involves a balance between arm support at the shoulder and at the finger. Just a tiny level of action in the finger (with minimal weight) can close the chain in a way that relieves the upper arm of most work. It's not a simple shoulder OR finger situation at all.

PS. As long as you can only ever construct arguments to try to prove your existing beliefs, you will continue to make such spectacularly silly and irrational claims to support them. Given that you are so big on sources, I suggest you look for experimental evidence that it's remotely possible to avoid keybeds in even moderately loud playing. Then you'll be in a position to stop grasping at straws to protect a failing method and instead get on with looking for a premise that not only makes sense but which actually works without bucketloads of dropped notes and the impossibility of ever playing loudly without living in fear.

[hardy_practice]

VERBOSE POSTS NOT WELCOME!

[nyiregyhazi]

VERBOSE POSTS NOT WELCOME!

I couldn't give two shits what you think. It's a forum. If posts which actually detail the pertinent issues (that you wish to ignore) are too much for you to cope with, then shove your head right back up your arse again so you can protect your beliefs in the method that generates your results. ie. alternation between random accents and pathetically immaciated tones that frequently don't even sound at all, due to the sheer level of repression. Your fear of keybeds is simply pathetic. The only reason you don't know how to deal with them safely is because you pretend you don't need to. And because you're so *** ignorant as to waste hours arguing against the methods that would enable you to deal with them, rather than actually accepting reality and looking at HOW to contact them

[hardy_practice]

I couldn't give two shits what you think.

  You don't say? Nobody (who actually has a life) wants to read them.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yeh, I got another computer out - this had better be good.

Here's Mr Katsaris bit:


Scale first time only fingers, 2nd with body - no difference and 3rd with body - as you can see (and hear) he just plays louder.

This isn't the tone thread. So what?

[hardy_practice]

This isn't the tone thread. So what?

Are you disagreeing with Dima that a youtube vid can't encode the phenomenon? 

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

Couldn't agree more.  What people think they gain listening to recordings is beyond me.  Now, music created for electronic reproduction is a different kettle of fish.  Things like Poème électronique by Varèse is what we should be listening to (although for that you really need a tunnel and 40 speakers!).

[pts1]

"Kinetic Chains"...?

Never heard of them... guess I've been playing the piano in ignorance for many, many years.

Is this related to "supply chain management"?

Personally, I find going to concerts very distracting. Its frustrating to me to have to deal with the audience, i.e. try and tune them out with all their program rattling, coughing, squirming, breathing, and so on.

Also, I find in live performance, the attractive female pianists ALWAYS play better than males, without exception.

Unhappily, however, some of the recordings of these same women are lacking somehow, which is testament to the fact that at least where the women are concerned in person is the only way to go!!!

So live performance is not necessarily an "authentic" experience.

I'd much rather listen to a recording than have to go to a concert.

Quite literally, I would not walk across the street to hear most pianists today. The dead ones are the best, IMHO.

Also, have you all forgotten that its been proven to a scientific certainty that the only thing that the pianist can control is the speed of the hammer?

IOW, aside from sound duration and dampers up, you can only control loudness.

Proved to a scientific certainty a number of times.

All the rest is preference for listening to attractive females and other non-factual diversions.

[nyiregyhazi]

Are you disagreeing with Dima that a youtube vid can't encode the phenomenon?  

Whether absolute tone is altered there is simply not relevant to the subject. I believe tone can be subtly manipulated, but I don't care greatly about the explanation of a single specific instance. The important thing regarding tone is not to write off the very possibility, in general terms. The important thing regarding closed vs open chains (which was the subject) is how truly deluded it is to imagine that keybeds can be avoided outright, rather than contacted better- to spring energy away from them rather than straight in. Open chains are irrelevant to anything involving long key depressions. The quality of connection is the only worthy issue for discussion.

[nyiregyhazi]

Regarding sound, it's worth reading this to test the value of subjective listening opinions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD#Sound_quality

But it's also true that all testing which supposedly ruled out tone did so in unsuitable conditions and that other tests have shown subtle variation (that may be augmented in real world playing with many notes). So I will not side either way firmly. But I'll still say how silly it is to say something is definitely impossible when that is not properly proven and when evidence actually exists for at least some observable difference.

[dima_76557]

-

[j_menz]

It is unclear for now whether some participants were actually sober when they thought they had heard something, and if not - how much sake they had had before they did so.

The same is true of most audiences (sake being substituted according to local tipple), so the test seems fair. 

[dima_76557]

-

[hardy_practice]

This isn't the tone thread. So what?

Do you or do you not agree with Dima that the phenomenon is not recorded on a vid?  Pretty simple question.

[nyiregyhazi]

Do you or do you not agree with Dima that the phenomenon is not recorded on a vid?  Pretty simple question.

And I'm obliged to speculate, whether I care to or not? No point I made in this thread hinged upon my opinion on the issue. Obviously things are lost in transmission. Who in their right mind would ever argue otherwise? However, I will not speculate as to whether differences are merely down to volume or down to absolute tone. The important thing is simply to be openminded enough not to close doors.

[nyiregyhazi]

Proved to a scientific certainty a number of times.

No, that's religion on your part. The only theoretical basis for saying tone doesn't exist is founded upon outrageous simplification. Accurate assessment shows many areas where theory gives an extremely credible basis to expect some degree of difference is possible. Saying only hammer speed matters is like plotting a projectile without bothering to consider air resistance, for all the relevance that can be found in such oversimplified theory. And experiments have also given empirical evidence for tone (even without bringing in the pedal, which is frankly outright negligence, with regard to the necessity of properly testing relevant variables).

Nothing but religious devotion could lead anyone to make such a ridiculous assertion in such a concrete fashion.

[lostinidlewonder]

Lol I wonder what drugs they are on.

[nyiregyhazi]

Lol I wonder what drugs they are on.

Yes, I lolled too. Hilarious contribution. You're absolutely right to laugh out loud at such a fine piece of wit.