sexism in music

[thalbergmad]

But quelle surprise that the misogynist brigade bring this up.

Nothing misogynistic about it at all. Not all of us are comfortable with some inconsiderate pregnant dog getting her tits out in a restaurant and start breastfeeding without any consideration whatsoever for all of the other diners.

It is simply bad manners.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I have studied this field extensively as well (before you were even born actually) and I can assure you that sexism is not limited to women.

You are banging your head against a brick wall here. She will not budge even in the face of good evidence.

Thal

[jknott]

and it's not bad manners to force her to do it in the toilet?

As for you not being a misogynist, your posts speak for themselves - misogyny was oozing from every word of that last one.  The bad manners are all yours.

But mainly I wonder what has changed in the last 30 years - no problem breast-feeding in public when I did it back then, yet we seem to have become more reactionary in the intervening years.

[j_menz]

She will not budge even in the face of good evidence.

A chance would be a fine thing in that regard.

[outin]

You are banging your head against a brick wall here. She will not budge even in the face of good evidence.

She doesn't have to... If she continues to study the issue open-mindedly, her ideas will naturally go through some development and her views will be expanded in this matter. It's not about evidence really, it's about having more than one angle on how to perceive things.

Of course some people seem to manage life quite well without that

[ahinton]

and it's not bad manners to force her to do it in the toilet?

As for you not being a misogynist, your posts speak for themselves - misogyny was oozing from every word of that last one.  The bad manners are all yours.

But mainly I wonder what has changed in the last 30 years - no problem breast-feeding in public when I did it back then, yet we seem to have become more reactionary in the intervening years.

The bad manners in forcing or otherwise obliging a woman to go into a toilet to do this are those of the people who want to force or otherwise oblige her to do so; those of women who want to breastfeed in a public situation such as a restaurant as Thal mentions is arguably theirs.

This is not a "black and white" situation. Many women would prefer to find somewhere private in which to do this, with no one but themselves and the child present; the dignity of privacy for such an action is surely understandable and there's none in being forced to go into a toilet to do it. Many women would not in any case want, or ever feel up to, going out to dinner in a restaurant when they have a child with them who might need breastfeeding; not every restaurant would necessarily accommodate babies in such a situation in any case.

The question here is, I think, that of whether many women would choose to make an exhibition of their breastfeeding activity among total strangers in a public environment and, in Western society, I somehow suspect that most would really rather not.

The recent crass comments by the leader of the UK Independence Party (UKIP) on this subject as reported widely in the press do neither him nor women nor children nor his party's supporters nor anyone else any favours whatsoever and, almost certainly realising this now, he appears to be trying to distance himself from them.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

and it's not bad manners to force her to do it in the toilet?

No, I don't think it is, or at the very least, ask her to cover up as in the recent Claridges case.

Now we have a group of stupid breastfeeding protesters, who have brought out there respective kids in freezing weather just to try and prove a point. How pathetic.

If this view is mysoginistic, then indeed I am guilty and bloody proud of it.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

The question here is, I think, that of whether many women would choose to make an exhibition of their breastfeeding activity among total strangers in a public environment and, in Western society, I somehow suspect that most would really rather not.

Indeed, but there will always be a minority that will do so without any consideration for others and their "rights" will be backed up by pathetic politicians terrified of upsetting the feminists and garbage left wing trash newspapers such as the Guardian.

Thal

[chopincat]

Nothing misogynistic about it at all. Not all of us are comfortable with some inconsiderate pregnant dog getting her tits out in a restaurant and start breastfeeding without any consideration whatsoever for all of the other diners.

It is simply bad manners.

Let me break it down for you. Do I enjoy seeing fat, elderly, hairy, ugly men in speedos on the beach or running through parks? Not at all! Does it make me uncomfortable? Extremely! But is it really harming me in any way? Nope! So can I really reasonably object to it? Not really! But do I have the right to look away since it makes me uncomfortable to look? Of course!

Same goes for you and breastfeeding, with one key difference: women absolutely need to feed their children. Men don't absolutely need to wear as little clothing as possible (though of course they have the right to do so).

People like you are the reason why things like gay marriage are still illegal in so many places. If someone else is doing something that is not harming or even affecting you or anyone else in any way but makes you "uncomfortable," then you are the problem, not the person. Look away if something makes you uncomfortable, don't infringe on their rights. Get it through your head that the world does not revolve around you and what you think of as "good manners."

Also: "some pregnant dog"? Unless they have another infant child, pregnant women don't breastfeed. Don't know where you got that idea into your head.

The question here is, I think, that of whether many women would choose to make an exhibition of their breastfeeding activity among total strangers in a public environment and, in Western society, I somehow suspect that most would really rather not.

Being a woman in Western society, I can tell you that your suspicion is wrong. But of course the women who don't want to don't have to, and no one is saying that they do! But unfortunately that isn't the question here, as thalbergmad is suggesting that a women who do choose to breastfeed in public are somehow harming other people.

[chopincat]

You are banging your head against a brick wall here. She will not budge even in the face of good evidence.

Unfortunately this description is far more accurate of yourself.

Gender studies tend to focus more on women studies, but it doesn't mean they can claim the concepts solely for themselves. What you have been studying is just one way to use the concept (which seems to be heavily interweaved with a certain theoretical frame of reference). But it is not the only way, not even in scholarly circles. Text books tend to give you a somewhat limited view on what is happening in science..

As I am very young and have only studied this topic at a few institutions, I was not aware that scholars had multiple definitions for this term. Thank you for respectfully informing me otherwise. I can assure you, though, that I am not learning from textbooks.

[outin]

Unfortunately this description is far more accurate of yourself.

I do agree with you here, as I do with much of what you write about the subject. But do I think your time is productively spent trying to make Thal change his views? Absolutely not!

[ahinton]

Being a woman in Western society, I can tell you that your suspicion is wrong. But of course the women who don't want to don't have to, and no one is saying that they do! But unfortunately that isn't the question here, as thalbergmad is suggesting that a women who do choose to breastfeed in public are somehow harming other people.

Just because you are a woman in Western society does not of itself mean, let alone prove, that you are capable of representing a majority view among such women when it comes to the subject matter concerned.

Does breastfeeding strike you as an inherently public activity? It strikes me as being very much more a private one between a mother and her child, for which an ad hoc arbitrary uninvited audience is unnecessary and could constitute a distractive interference. There is surely a kind of intimacy about breastfeeding that is not naturally amenable to public exhibition; that's why I wrote as I did.

I am not suggesting - as you rightly or wrongly claim Thal to be doing - that women breastfeeding in public is on all occasions harmful to others who witness it; my view is that it is not only unnecssary but also not something that would be most women's first choice. In order to breastfeed, a woman has to expose a part of herself that she might well not wish to do in public (before whoever happens to be in the vicinity at the time) if she could avoid it, because breastfeeding is no one else's business except that of the woman and her child.

All that said, what's this got to do with "sexism in music"? It is simply not possible to breastfeed while playing an instrument or singing or conducting or even composing!

Best,

Alistair

[chopincat]

Just because you are a woman in Western society does not of itself mean, let alone prove, that you are capable of representing a majority view among such women when it comes to the subject matter concerned.

I'm aware of that. But you were suggesting - or so it seemed to me - that very few women would actually want to breastfeed in public. And I can assure that is just not true. If and when I have a child, I would have no problem feeding him or her just because I happened to be around other people. This was true of my mother and most of the women in my family, and most of the women I know. There's so many women who feel comfortable with it that I wouldn't even call it a minority view.

Does breastfeeding strike you as an inherently public activity? It strikes me as being very much more a private one between a mother and her child, for which an ad hoc arbitrary uninvited audience is unnecessary and could constitute a distractive interference. There is surely a kind of intimacy about breastfeeding that is not naturally amenable to public exhibition; that's why I wrote as I did.

As you are not a mother or even a woman, I really don't think that you are able or entitled to make comments about what breastfeeding is for a mother and a child. Sure, it's an intimate activity. Hugging or kissing a family member or loved one could also be considered an intimate activity. Are you suggesting everyone go to the bathroom when they want to hug or kiss someone else? Also, how can you say that breastfeeding is not natural to be in public when women have been doing it in public for literally thousands of years? I happen to think it's extremely unnatural of us to sexualize and be embarrassed by such a natural act.

my view is that it is not only unnecssary but also not something that would be most women's first choice. In order to breastfeed, a woman has to expose a part of herself that she might well not wish to do in public (before whoever happens to be in the vicinity at the time) if she could avoid it, because breastfeeding is no one else's business except that of the woman and her child.

I have no problem exposing parts of my body in public. Neither do all the women who breastfeed in public. The ones who do have a problem with exposing themselves in public just don't breastfeed in public. No one is making them do it, and the rest of us just want to have the right to. Please stop assuming what a woman's "first choice" would be. I know that it definitely wouldn't be my first choice to cram myself into a bathroom stall every time my child needed to eat.

If you really still don't get it, watch this:

All that said, what's this got to do with "sexism in music"? It is simply not possible to breastfeed while playing an instrument or singing or conducting or even composing!

As this is the "anything but piano" forum I don't think it's necessary that we stay on the topic of music. But if you're looking for someone to blame for straying from the original thread topic, it was thalbergmad who brought up breastfeeding, not me.

[cwjalex]

is breastfeeding in public even a huge issue?  who cares if women do it?

[thalbergmad]

I have no problem exposing parts of my body in public.

That will probably be a shock to all of those fat hairy men in Speedos that appear to inhabit your area.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

People like you are the reason why things like gay marriage are still illegal in so many places.

You stupid ignorant schoolbrat. That really is not worth commenting on.

Thal

[chopincat]

is breastfeeding in public even a huge issue?  who cares if women do it?

+1

[chopincat]

You stupid ignorant schoolbrat. That really is not worth commenting on.

It appears I've struck a chord (no pun intended). I'd have to say that in my opinion, most of what you've posted on this thread wasn't worth commenting on. The name calling sounds rather immature from someone who has made numerous claims to seniority.

[thalbergmad]

It appears I've struck a chord (no pun intended).

No, you have just been remarkably dumb. I have supported gay marriage for years.

I'd have to say that in my opinion, most of what you've posted on this thread wasn't worth commenting on

.

Well don't then. In fact I would prefer it if you did not. You are rooted in your position and you will not move.

The name calling sounds rather immature from someone who has made numerous claims to seniority.

I have been on this Earth a fair bit longer than you which means I have a greater cache of experiences. Once you are out in the real World, you may or may not change youe stance.

Thal

[chopincat]

No, you have just been remarkably dumb. I have supported gay marriage for years.

I never said you didn't support gay marriage. I just said "people like you" - i.e. people who want to ban/outlaw things that don't even affect them but just make them "uncomfortable," - are the reason why things like gay marriage, public breastfeeding, abortion, etc. are still banned/outlawed/frowned upon in so many places.

Once you are out in the real World, you may or may not change youe stance.

Oh? But I thought I was an ignorant schoolbrat who was rooted in my views and wouldn't even budge in the face of good evidence?

[thalbergmad]

I just said "people like you"

An infantile expression to use on an internet forum. I doubt if i would use that on someone that I had known for years.

Thal

[chopincat]

I doubt if i would use that on someone that I had known for years.

Don't really understand your point, considering I've only known you for a few days (actually, I don't know you. I just argue with you on an internet forum. I wouldn't really consider that "knowing" someone anyway).

[thalbergmad]

Well, don't use the expression "people like you" then.

[chopincat]

What... you said "I doubt if I would use that on someone I had known for years." I haven't known you for years, and there's no reason for me to treat you as if I have. So what exactly is your point???

[thalbergmad]

Oh dear, this is really very basic.

If you do not know someone, then saying "people like you" is a remarkably stupid and dimwitted thing to say.

Is that sufficient or do you need an essay??

Thal

[hardy_practice]

Nothing misogynistic about it at all. Not all of us are comfortable with some inconsiderate pregnant dog getting her tits out in a restaurant and start breastfeeding without any consideration whatsoever for all of the other diners.

What, babies have to eat in the toilet?  Oh dear.  'pregnant dog'!? What's that about??

[thalbergmad]

The forum software automatically replaces a word beginning with b and ending in h with pregnant dog.

Thal

[Bob]

Bah!

[Bob]

Perhaps it could be balanced out.  Women could breastfeed in public and men can urinate in public.  As long as it's covered... Just wipe out an appendage and take care of your business.  *Bob thinks this may achieve peak efficiency in men.*

This is all getting off track of the original topic though.   There's another thread about it on here from a few years ago I remember.

[chopincat]

Perhaps it could be balanced out.  Women could breastfeed in public and men can urinate in public.  As long as it's covered... Just wipe out an appendage and take care of your business. 

I'm not entirely sure if you're serious, but that comparison doesn't really work... Penises are genitalia, breasts are not. Breastfeeding involves the intake of food (something we often do in public), urinating involves the excretion of it (something we have done in private for quite some time). If you're arguing that men should be able to urinate in public on the basis of equality, there would have to be a pretense of women being able to urinate in public, which there isn't.

[Bob]

All right.  We'll through that in too.

*Bob has just successfully negotiated for public urination right for all guys.*

That could get really annoying during the quiet parts of concerts though.

[outin]

men can urinate in public. 

They already do that quite frequently...

[Bob]

Legally though.   We'd have a legal right to it. 

They used to have spittoons...  *Bob looks to the horizon and thinks about the future.*  I think I'd ask for an extra glass or two at a restaurant. 

[hardy_practice]

But a pregnant dog isn't necessarily pregnant???

[ahinton]

I'm aware of that. But you were suggesting - or so it seemed to me - that very few women would actually want to breastfeed in public. And I can assure that is just not true.

OK, but where is your statistical evidence for this? On what and whose research is it based?

If and when I have a child, I would have no problem feeding him or her just because I happened to be around other people. This was true of my mother and most of the women in my family, and most of the women I know. There's so many women who feel comfortable with it that I wouldn't even call it a minority view.

That's as maybe; clearly, we don't know the same women!

As you are not a mother or even a woman, I really don't think that you are able or entitled to make comments about what breastfeeding is for a mother and a child.

I'm entitled to make coments on such as I know - and I do not pretend to know what it is in its entirety for those who do this.

Sure, it's an intimate activity. Hugging or kissing a family member or loved one could also be considered an intimate activity. Are you suggesting everyone go to the bathroom when they want to hug or kiss someone else?

Of course not, but that doesn't of itself involve the same kind of physical exposure.

Also, how can you say that breastfeeding is not natural to be in public when women have been doing it in public for literally thousands of years? I happen to think it's extremely unnatural of us to sexualize and be embarrassed by such a natural act.

I didn't actually use that word - that's down to you - but it is at best a spurious assumption that what might have been "natural" or considered to be "natural" millennia ago remains so in today's very different society.

I have no problem exposing parts of my body in public. Neither do all the women who breastfeed in public. The ones who do have a problem with exposing themselves in public just don't breastfeed in public. No one is making them do it, and the rest of us just want to have the right to. Please stop assuming what a woman's "first choice" would be. I know that it definitely wouldn't be my first choice to cram myself into a bathroom stall every time my child needed to eat.

No, I am aware that breastfeeding inpublic is not compulsory and I am not seeking to speak for all women about their first choices in such matters - indeed, no one could do that because not all women have the same ones. All that I know is that every woman in whose company I've been in a public situation when they've wanted to do this has excused herself to go and do it in private.

As this is the "anything but piano" forum I don't think it's necessary that we stay on the topic of music. But if you're looking for someone to blame for straying from the original thread topic, it was thalbergmad who brought up breastfeeding, not me.

The fact that this thread is in the Anything but piano section does not of itself provide an excuse to depart from its topic which, to remind you, is sexism in music. Whilst I admit that I have never seen a woman breastfeeding while singing, playing an instrument, conducting or composing and Thal's reference to it might be seen to represent something of a side issue where the practice of music is concerned; his introduction of it is not so far from the topic in certain contexts; think, for example, of auch activity being carried out in an auditorium in a concert hall or opera house with many hundreds of audience members present - would you consider that to be a more comfortable experience for the woman concerned than disappearing into a ladies' toilet to do it?

Anyway, I think that there's been quite enough on that aspect of the topic by now and there are, aftr all, many other aspects of "sexism in music" to identify, explore and discuss.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

The forum software automatically replaces a word beginning with b and ending in h with pregnant dog.

Really? So a forum devoted to piano automatically turns the composer of WTC into a pregnant dog? That's appalling! Nils should be told to change that software! Actually not, because of course it doesn't do that and, if it did, the forum might run the risk of being accused of blasphemy; remember Mauricio Kagel's wry observation that not all musicians believe in God but they do all believe in J S B**h"?

Best,

Alistair

[emill]

*Bob's waiting to Thalbergmad to chime in with some level-headed views on women and equality.* 

YES .... he has already ! ! !      

[chopincat]

Anyway, I think that there's been quite enough on that aspect of the topic by now and there are, aftr all, many other aspects of "sexism in music" to identify, explore and discuss.

Agreed!

[Petter]

Unfortunately there's a imbalance. When I went to music school (a jazz program, there were 4 girls and they were all singers) but I think it's getting better. It has a lot to do with role models I think. After Ezperansa Spaudling (jazz bass player) appeared on the scene there were lots of teenage girls who posted videos of them playing electric bass on Youtube. These things counts I think.

 Also, BBC had a some focus on woman in classical music at this years Promenade, which I though was really great. Some young female conductors I was really impressed by. In an interview they also let it be know that there are still symphony orchestras in Europe which refuses woman conductors, which is sad to say the least.

[carl_h]

I'm not at a voting age yet

Women can vote!?