piano recital with Chopin-Scherzo No.2, Op.31

[pianochic]

   I'm planning to play the Chopin-Scherzo No.2, Op. 31 piece in my January recital. It is a quite long piece, and it seems easier than it actually sounds in recordings. I'm afraid that my audience will get bored of my playing because it repeats itself too many times, and it seems like the piece is over, but it isn't. I'm also thinking about cutting parts of the pieces. But, what I want to achieve out of this piece is to play the piece just like the recording I have. How do I acquire this technique? How does one acquire great technique like the great pianists? Yes, I know that it takes years of hardwork, but how does one practice to achieve a kind of technique? Should I just keep practicing every measure until I like the way it sounds?

P.S. If there was a past forum of achieving technique to the extent of great pianists, please show me the link. Thanks!

[presto agitato]

It is a quite long piece, and it seems easier than it actually sounds in recordings.

I dont think so, last week i saw a video with Cziffra playing this piece, and it is not easy at all.

I'm also thinking about cutting parts of the pieces.

This sucks IMO

what I want to achieve out of this piece is to play the piece just like the recording I have.

  What recordind do you have?

[zemos]

It's a tough piece. I also have the Cziffra video recording (although I don't like his playing at all) and it's even harder than it sounds... BTW - If there's one thing to say about this piece, it'll be very NOT boring! You can't cut parts or play without the repetitions, if so, it wouldn't be Chopin's Scherzo! (:

[jon]

I played this piece last year for a competition and I had to cut out the repeat of the first four pages because it was too long.This scherzo is definitely not a walk in the park even with extremely tedious practice for about three hours a day.I don't think you have to worry about the audience getting bored.When I played it, around 30 of my friends were there at the competition and they absolutely loved this piece even though not one of them is into classical music at all. The slow middle section is the place where I thought they would get bored but that was the part everyone remembered because it is so beautiful.This piece can never be expressed enough but the key is to always make the music seem like it is pulling;every note, the way you press it,the nuance possible in this music is what makes it great.

[m]

   I'm planning to play the Chopin-Scherzo No.2, Op. 31 piece in my January recital.

Great piece!

It is a quite long piece, and it seems easier than it actually sounds in recordings.

It is not that long--about 10 minutes. Everything is hard to play well, whether it is Schumann's Kinderscenen, or Liszt Sonata.

I'm also thinking about cutting parts of the pieces.

Do you really think that you are smarter than Chopin?

But, what I want to achieve out of this piece is to play the piece just like the recording I have. How do I acquire this technique? How does one acquire great technique like the great pianists?

The great pianists do not do two things:
1) They don't ask how to play like somebody else--they prefer to do their own mistakes.
2) They don't ask how to acquire a great technique--they work and think.

[Sketchee]

The great pianists do not do two things:
1) They don't ask how to play like somebody else--they prefer to do their own mistakes.
2) They don't ask how to acquire a great technique--they work and think.

Accounts by great pianists say otherwise.  There are so many famous dialogs between the great pianists that are quite interesting.   They had great teachers and spent their lives learning which included input from other musicians. There's no account of a great pianists becoming great sealed away in some a secluded vaccuum.

I've been working on this piece for a while now although my teacher and I have just begun to work on it seriously.  He gave me a few other repetitive pieces to show me how to make each repeat different.  After performing those pieces, I talked to a few music students who were in the audience.  They told me that even though I was repeating the same thing over and over, it was hardly noticable.  Each repeat was obviously the same music but somehow different.  They couldn't place their finger on it, interestingly.

"If you play it understated the first time," my professor gave as an example, "play it sharply the second time. If you play it accented the first time play it more legato the second time."  There are many ways to play a piece.  The individual music will help you find what are appropriate emphasises to exaggerate.  While those elements will actually be there in each repeat, just emphasizing one element over another can produce slight interest.  It might be a slight revoicing. Sometimes I'll bring a bit more attention to a secondary line or the bass.  I once watched a rehearsal of an orchestra and the conductor explained to an instrumentalist that a restatement of her solo line was 'the same but different'.  You might change your rubato or make a crescendo even more prominent for example.  You can get very creative with these interpretations and still stay within the scope of the intended music.  Think of Bolero where the same theme is repeated again and again in different ways.  Try to adjust the timbres of your playing in a similar fashion.

I'm not going to give you my specific applications to this particular piece since I'm sure you can find your own.  There's so many possibilities.  There are slight differences in the repetitions that you can carefully note.  They can give you hints at how you can characterize that particular repetition as whole.

[m]

Accounts by great pianists say otherwise.  There are so many famous dialogs between the great pianists that are quite interesting.   They had great teachers and spent their lives learning which included input from other musicians. There's no account of a great pianists becoming great sealed away in some a secluded vaccuum.

Agree! 100% agree!

But my point is--can you imagine Rachmaninov coming to Horowits saying: "Hey bud! Just heard your recording of Chopin 2nd Scherzo. How can I do it JUST like you did it?"
Or Richter coming to Gilels:"Oh bro! Tell me how can I do Hammerklavier JUST like you do it?"

Yes, there are "technical secrets" in greatests pianists playing, but they are unseparable from their musical intentions, and this is my point when I see somebody posting a questions like  "I want to achieve out of this piece is to play the piece just like the recording I have."

[pianochic]

 

I dont think so, last week i saw a video with Cziffra playing this piece, and it is not easy at all.


 This sucks IMO


  What recordind do you have?

Sorry I never saw anyone play this piece professionally. And I guess it really isn't easy.
I have no idea who the pianist is of my recording because someone copied it for me.

[pianochic]

quote:
"I'm afraid that my audience will get bored of my playing because it repeats itself too many times, and it seems like the piece is over, but it isn't."
Sorry I wasn't clear in what I was saying. The music students who were part of the audience criticized me that they got bored of my playing because the scherzo repeated too many times, and said it seemed like it was over, but wasn't.

It's a tough piece. BTW - If there's one thing to say about this piece, it'll be very NOT boring! You can't cut parts or play without the repetitions, if so, it wouldn't be Chopin's Scherzo! (:

I was thinking about cutting the first 4 pages like Jon, but it was just my idea... I was just worried of inviting my friends and relatives to my recital, and making them get bored. But, of course my piano teacher has to allow me to do this. And it's just a recital not like it's a competition where it has time limits. Yes, this piece is very NOT boring at all zemos. I have the most respect for Chopin, and yes I won't cut parts of it because it wouldn't be Chopin's Scherzo! Now, I don't care if I bore my friends and family at the recital. As long as I honor Chopin!

[pianochic]

It is not that long--about 10 minutes. Everything is hard to play well, whether it is Schumann's Kinderscenen, or Liszt Sonata.

Do you really think that you are smarter than Chopin?

The great pianists do not do two things:
1) They don't ask how to play like somebody else--they prefer to do their own mistakes.
2) They don't ask how to acquire a great technique--they work and think.

It takes me less than 15 minutes to play this piece. Chopin is my most favorite composer, and I am NOTHING compared to him....and it really hurts me to even think about cutting Chopin's Scherzo. I am so addicted and in love with his compositions that I can only play Chopin.

I am an amateur pianist, who doesn't have a good piano instructor and she doesn't know this piece well. So like what all pianists do... I listened to a recording of this Scherzo. And my point is that I just want to play this Scherzo that beautifully. And when I said how does one acquire great technique?... I really meant that I only needed suggestions on how one proceeds to learn this Scherzo. I agree with you that everyone has their own unique technique on how to play a piece. And that I shouldn't ask how to play like someone else. I wasn't clear on what I meant when I said how does on acquire great technique. Sorry.
...........
By the way THANK YOU Sketchee for your suggestions and experiences! Really helps!

Jon. Thanks for inspring me to practice... wow you practiced 3 hours everyday for this Scherzo. lol. I really needed some inspiration to keep practicing and make this piece sound better. I live in Guam, and I'm glad that there are pianists out there who are really into piano because there are like only 4 teen classical pianists on Guam who take piano seriously...
 
Heart you all!
And please post if you have any suggestions for this piece.

[chromatickler]

There's a wonderful performance on Libetta's site: https://www.francescolibetta.it Go to 'Sound', and then the op39 (For some reason the 2 scherzi files are reversed).

I'm guessing this will be your introduction to this pianist too.

[m]

It takes me less than 15 minutes to play this piece. Chopin is my most favorite composer, and I am NOTHING compared to him....and it really hurts me to even think about cutting Chopin's Scherzo. I am so addicted and in love with his compositions that I can only play Chopin.

I am an amateur pianist, who doesn't have a good piano instructor and she doesn't know this piece well. So like what all pianists do... I listened to a recording of this Scherzo. And my point is that I just want to play this Scherzo that beautifully. And when I said how does one acquire great technique?... I really meant that I only needed suggestions on how one proceeds to learn this Scherzo. I agree with you that everyone has their own unique technique on how to play a piece. And that I shouldn't ask how to play like someone else. I wasn't clear on what I meant when I said how does on acquire great technique. Sorry.

Dear Pianochic,

My very first suggestion would be to change a teacher--it is not good that you even yourself understand that you don't have a good instructor. The good and experienced teacher will see right away all the problems and will guide you methodically, step-by-step, as for what to do, how to aqcuire good technique, and how to connect the technique with musical and emotional context of the piece.
Nothing can be worst, especially for motivated person, than not good teacher.

[ericlc]

The scherzo is repetitive, yes, but that's the nature of the scherzo form. If you practice the piece and are keenly attentive to your technique and not doing extraneous movements with your fingers or wrists beyond what is absolutely necessary, it should not be that hard as the passages repeat themselves so much. You shouldn't cut any of it and if you believe you're at risk of making it sound boring and redundant, it may be best to work on another piece. Finally, speed isn't everything but I'd be worried if you were approaching 15 minutes -- that sounds a lot more like Moderato than Scherzo and you lose the jauntiness and lilting feeling if you take it that slow. This piece really should be performed in 9-10 minutes without there ever being an ebb in its flow.

[bernhard]

I am an amateur pianist, who doesn't have a good piano instructor and she doesn't know this piece well. So like what all pianists do... I listened to a recording of this Scherzo. And my point is that I just want to play this Scherzo that beautifully. And when I said how does one acquire great technique?... I really meant that I only needed suggestions on how one proceeds to learn this Scherzo. I agree with you that everyone has their own unique technique on how to play a piece. And that I shouldn't ask how to play like someone else. I wasn't clear on what I meant when I said how does on acquire great technique. Sorry.

Try this book:

Eleanor Bailie - Chopin: a Graded practical guide (Kahn and Averill).

It will give you the guidance you need (until you can get a better teacher).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[chopin2256]

To give you an idea, this piece took me about 80 hours to learn how to play.  The easiest parts are probably the introduction, and the slower part after the repeat.  The hardest part of the piece is probably the section after the slower section.  This section is played in e major which is supposed to be played quite fast.

Believe it or not, alot of this piece is just patterns.  Chopin was not only a great composer, he was a clever one also.  He wrote this piece in a way that makes it not so hard to play, if the patterns are found.  There was a reason for writing it in B flat minor.  One obvious reason is the triplets in the beginning of the piece are cake to play.  Another reason is probably because its relative major (A flat major) is a nice key to play with, which alleviates the left hand as it plays the theme right after the first.

Be careful about taking out the so called repeat...it is in fact slightly changed the second time around.  Chopin probably decided to repeat this because it was so carefully crafted and too beautiful to just play once.  Yet he changes it up a little, so the repeat will fit right in.

If people will be bored listening, its because they don't appreciate this type of music anyway.  Taking a repeat away will not change their mind of this type of music.

The best way to gain technique is by putting in your hours.  Technique probably should come automatically, but it will not happen if you only play a few hours a week. 

You also have to be motivated to play this piece....and be patient.  Are you good at playing fast passages?  The whole piece is pretty fast, and will be difficult for an amateur pianist to play, if your not used to moving your fingers with speed.  Try finding patterns, that should really help you out with your playing, especially with fast passages.

[pianochic]

Thanks Chromatickler for showing me that link of francesco libetta's... he's really good.

Dear Pianochic,

My very first suggestion would be to change a teacher--it is not good that you even yourself understand that you don't have a good instructor. The good and experienced teacher will see right away all the problems and will guide you methodically, step-by-step, as for what to do, how to aqcuire good technique, and how to connect the technique with musical and emotional context of the piece.
Nothing can be worst, especially for motivated person, than not good teacher.

Hi Marik,
I wish there was a better piano teacher on Guam, but my piano teacher is the best I can get here. There's no one better than her. I guess I'm not too fortunate to become a better classical pianist on Guam... But in the future when I move to the states to go to college...I'll probably study more of piano, and at the least minor it.

The scherzo is repetitive, yes, but that's the nature of the scherzo form. If you practice the piece and are keenly attentive to your technique and not doing extraneous movements with your fingers or wrists beyond what is absolutely necessary, it should not be that hard as the passages repeat themselves so much. You shouldn't cut any of it and if you believe you're at risk of making it sound boring and redundant, it may be best to work on another piece. Finally, speed isn't everything but I'd be worried if you were approaching 15 minutes -- that sounds a lot more like Moderato than Scherzo and you lose the jauntiness and lilting feeling if you take it that slow. This piece really should be performed in 9-10 minutes without there ever being an ebb in its flow.

I'll try my best to make it faster to make it become at least 10 minutes. You're right. If I don't make this Scherzo faster it will lose it exciting, jauntiness, and lilting feeling.

Also thanks Bernhard for the suggestion of that book!

 

[pianochic]

You also have to be motivated to play this piece....and be patient.  Are you good at playing fast passages?  The whole piece is pretty fast, and will be difficult for an amateur pianist to play, if your not used to moving your fingers with speed.  Try finding patterns, that should really help you out with your playing, especially with fast passages.

I'm very motivated by everyone's help to make this piece the way I want it to sound.
 

[Aspiring Romantic]

One thing that is pivotal to performing this piece is control.  If you're just blurring through the fast passages and the notes become uneven then you haven't truly learned the piece.  I agree, i thought the playing this piece was extremely easy at first.  However, if you want to play it well, then you better devote hours of SLOW practice. 
By the way, if you want a highly academic but wonderful live recording of this piece try Yundi Li's International Chopin Competition DVD.