Questions about teaching

[m1469]

1.   Is it right for a student to be able to ask a teacher for any insights that a teacher may have and is willing to give on subjects related to piano study:  practice, memorization, performance etc. (I am asking this from the perspective of being a student), or is this taboo?

2.   Isn't it logical to assume that, should a teacher have discovered helpful treasures and gems in thier own endeavors with the piano, believing in these things and putting them into practice themselves, that they should naturally want to incoporate this into their teaching?

3.  Is it fair to assume that should there appear to be a lack of systematic approach in teaching, that perhaps there is a lack of systematic approach in that teacher's own learning, therefore reflected within the teaching?

4.  If #3 is true, would the application of #1, in essence, be an insult and therefore wise to steer clear from?

5.  How is it that people who may have very sought-after training (big name schools, big name teachers, early-age beginnings etc.,) have failed to clearly develop a truly systematic and practical approach to piano study (this is based on both my own observations, and previous discussions on subjects within this forum within different threads)?  (Perhaps I am in need of an awakening here?)


Please tell me if you do not understand my questions.

Thanks,
m1469 Fox

[m1469]

And a few more...

6.  Is it ludicrous to expect one teacher to provide truly sufficient answers to all of the categorical problems of piano playing, and guide a willing and capable student through these, thereby truly giving a student the tools needed to then continue study on their own with success?

  a)  Or should it be expected that a student will need many teachers and take the   responsiblity on themselves to find the exact right teacher at the exact right time, for the exact right reasons?

  b)  Is it a teacher's job to aid in finding another teacher for a student who needs more than what can be given by themselves?

  c)  Is it a teacher's job to communicate with a student as to when and if that student needs another teacher, or time on their own, etc.?

7.  Is it completely fantasy to want to be one of these teachers?


(8. Is it obvious that I am really searching here?)


m1469 Fox

[bernhard]

1.   Is it right for a student to be able to ask a teacher for any insights that a teacher may have and is willing to give on subjects related to piano study:  practice, memorization, performance etc. (I am asking this from the perspective of being a student), or is this taboo?

Yes. It is all right to ask. But just as it is all right for you to ask, it is all right for the teacher not to answer.

2.   Isn't it logical to assume that, should a teacher have discovered helpful treasures and gems in their own endeavours with the piano, believing in these things and putting them into practice themselves, that they should naturally want to incorporate this into their teaching?

It is logical if the teacher in question is the kind of teacher who believes into incorporating his insights into his teachings.

However many teachers may not even be interested in discovering such gems. Just as there are students from h ell, so there are teachers from h ell. Just as there are lazy students, so there are lazy teachers (except that they call themselves traditional teachers). Just a some students cannot be bothered with practice and homework, so some teachers cannot be bothered with lesson preparation and self-improvement.

3.  Is it fair to assume that should there appear to be a lack of systematic approach in teaching, that perhaps there is a lack of systematic approach in that teacher's own learning, therefore reflected within the teaching?

No. The problem is not with systematic teaching. (I would call it logical teaching). The nature of piano teaching – since it is highly personal – make it very difficult to have a uniform approach. Such uniformity would be wonderful for corporate business in music, but would be totally detrimental to teachers and students alike. Leschetizky’s (perhaps the most famous piano teacher ever) students could never agree in what exactly Leschetizky’s method actually consisted: he seemed to be teaching each student not only different things, but giving them downright contradictory instructions. He had a system all right, but it could not be uniformly applied to all and any: his system was tailored specifically to each student – and that is exactly as it should be.

So where is the lack of a systematic approach: between different students, or for a single student? And if the latter, is it really the lack of a system, or simply the system is so vast and complex that the student cannot see it? Or even more likely, the student may believe that there is no system, simply because the system does not conform to the student’s pre-conceived ideas about learning the piano?

And what about the student? No amount of systematisation will make up for a lack of consistency and discipline on the part of the student.

4.  If #3 is true, would the application of #1, in essence, be an insult and therefore wise to steer clear from?

It is only an insult to ask someone “What exactly are you doing” if they have no idea of what they are doing. Normally teachers are more than happy to explain their systems to whoever asks.

However, one must remember that a lesson is not a debate society. It is all right to ask questions in order to better understand instructions. It is not all right to ask questions in order to argue and disagree with your teacher. The reason is simple: it is a waste of time. If you do not agree with your teacher’s system you are better off changing teachers.

However my experience is that students are usually abysmally ignorant. Yet they have totally fixed ideas about how things should be run. Trying to explain things in that sort of situation usually leads nowhere fast. Faced with an inquisitive student of this kind, I certainly do not feel insulted by his/her questions, but I also do not waste time in endless and ultimately useless explanations. Instead we keep on practising in accordance to the correct principles and soon results speak by themselves.

Good results and progress in playing are far better than articulate verbal arguments.

This reminds me of a Sufi story:

“A man opened a restaurant and put a display on the window: FOOD SERVED HERE.

Soon a man entered the restaurant and said: I noticed your display. Wouldn’t it be better to have a different display saying: GOOD FOOD SERVED HERE. ?

The restaurant owner agreed, thanked the stranger, and changed the display accordingly.

Soon a woman entered the restaurant and said: I noticed your display. I do not think it is a good idea, since it implies that the food is not good, otherwise, why should you want to say that GOOD food is served here? Certainly one must assume that you indeed serve only good food here.

Again the restaurant owner thanked lady and changed the display back to what it was originally.

This time a couple came in the restaurant and said: We could not help noticing your restaurant and the display in the window. Surely if this is a restaurant, food is served here. Why do you need such a display at all?

The restaurant owner thanked the couple, gave a deep sigh and though to himself: When will someone enter here who actually wants to eat something?”

5.  How is it that people who may have very sought-after training (big name schools, big name teachers, early-age beginnings etc.,) have failed to clearly develop a truly systematic and practical approach to piano study (this is based on both my own observations, and previous discussions on subjects within this forum within different threads)?  (Perhaps I am in need of an awakening here?)

You may become very good at something through unconscious learning. Specially if you do it in a semi-sonambulistic way for 10-12 hours a day. This allows you to get good and at the same time maintain the most absurd theories about how you got to be so good (“I owe my virtuosity to Pischna/Hanon/Czerny and I don’t care what anyone else says).

The fact is, it is exceedingly difficult to observe honestly and impartially what you are actually doing and what is working and what is not. The complexity of piano playing does not help this task either.

This explains why superlative concert pianists are terrible teachers. Their explanations of how to do what they do is either useless (“Play like the wind ruffling the leaves in the forest”), or downright wrong (“Pass the thumb under when playing fast scales” – even though a slow motion video of their own playing shows that they do nothing of the kind). Conditioning is an awesome force.

6.  Is it ludicrous to expect one teacher to provide truly sufficient answers to all of the categorical problems of piano playing, and guide a willing and capable student through these, thereby truly giving a student the tools needed to then continue study on their own with success?

Yes, of course it is. No one is perfect (or omniscient). However, any teacher that comes your way will impart something of value to you – otherwise, they would not come your way. So focus on what you can get from this teacher. Once you get it, trust me, another teacher with more advanced stuff to impart will appear. However, if you do not learn what this teacher has to teach you you will just keep getting more of the same.

 

a)  Or should it be expected that a student will need many teachers and take the   responsiblity on themselves to find the exact right teacher at the exact right time, for the exact right reasons?

We always need an infinite number of teachers, and eventually the whole of life becomes our teacher. Teachings appear in the guise of the most unexpected teachers. I learned more about piano technique from the practice of martial arts, than from any of my formal piano teachers. I learned more about the process of piano playing from observing my student’s struggles and overcoming of technical obstacles than from any pedagogical instruction I ever received (in fact I firmly believe pedagogy to be a total waste of time at best and complete con at worst).

Both teachers and students do not need to worry about finding students and teachers respectively. In my experience, the right student/teacher always appears once you are ready for the teaching they will impart you. Your responsibility is not so much in looking for/finding the exact teacher/perfect student, but rather readying yourself for the occasion and being aware that teaching is taking place.

Then observe carefully the teacher you get: the teacher you get will tell you exactly what sort of student you are. If you want a different teacher, become a different student. Likewise, if all you get are the students from h ell, consider this as an evaluation of the kind of teacher you are. Then become a different teacher and you will attract a different sort of student.

  b)  Is it a teacher's job to aid in finding another teacher for a student who needs more than what can be given by themselves?

Given the level of competitiveness currently going on in the profession, do not expect too much in that area.

A teacher with a long waiting list may be more than happy to direct some of his students to another teacher, but guess what? It will be the students from h ell. The really good students (that will win competitions and become famous stars and make that teacher’s name) s/he will most likely keep.

This is not helped by the students themselves. Take Alfred Brendel as an example. What does he tell in interviews about his teachers? “My early teachers did not do me too much good, but I guess I should be grateful that they did not do too much harm either.” He then goes on to wax lyrical about his teacher Edwin Fisher. In fact Edwin Fisher was not his teacher in any way I would use the word. He had some ten lessons with him, when he was already a fully formed pianist. But you see, it sounds much better to trace your lineage to Edwin Fisher (who was taught by Martin Krause, who was taught by Liszt, who was taught by Czerny, who was taught by Beethoven), than to say: “I really owe my piano skills to humble Mary Smith who none of you ever heard of, but who was patient and kind and taught me how to read a score and how to play my first piece”.

I truly dislike this sort of people, and in the case of Brendel, he does not even play that well.

  c)  Is it a teacher's job to communicate with a student as to when and if that student needs another teacher, or time on their own, etc.?

In an ideal world yes. In this world that is not how things happen. What happens is that after 3 or 4 years of your hard work, and when you start to see a student beginning to develop, so that you will finally be able to impart some of your knowledge to him/her, instead of just doing some silly repertory and cajoling the student constantly to practise and to read the music instead of guessing the notes, they decide to quit.

7.  Is it completely fantasy to want to be one of these teachers?

Which one?

(8. Is it obvious that I am really searching here?)

Remember, you do not want to be a seeker after truth. You want to be a truth finder.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[m1469]

Okay, I have been thinking.  I have started many responses in my head, only to find myself backed into a corner.  Finally, I have picked one thing that seems to me to be the place that all the avenues of my thought about this have been leading to and then branch out from there:

...is it really the lack of a system, or simply the system is so vast and complex that the student cannot see it? Or even more likely, the student may believe that there is no system, simply because the system does not conform to the student’s pre-conceived ideas about learning the piano?

I will start by admitting that I get quite overwhelmed at times.  I get overwhelmed in two ways:

1.  That there appears to be no system at all.
2.  That the system is so vast and complex that I only glimpse it and never fully grasp it, all the while reaching to wrap my thought around it.

I tend to take huge swinging motions between the two, one of them throwing me somewhat serendipitously into the other.  Yet, here I am trying to use this positively; form and fashion it, shade and color it, taking a ride and then being ridden.  I find over and over again that it is not me who is holding the reins yet I have a responsiblity to keep moving.

And then I find myself here:

The fact is, it is exceedingly difficult to observe honestly and impartially what you are actually doing and what is working and what is not. The complexity of piano playing does not help this task either.

and because of this:

...students are usually abysmally ignorant.

I begin to feel as though I need a TEACHER, someone who can look from the outside in and help for me to see beyond what I think I know of myself and my endeavors. 

And because of a mixture of this:

many teachers may not even be interested in discovering such gems. Just as there are students from h ell, so there are teachers from h ell. Just as there are lazy students, so there are lazy teachers (except that they call themselves traditional teachers). Just a some students cannot be bothered with practice and homework, so some teachers cannot be bothered with lesson preparation and self-improvement.

and the first quote I used, I fear that I cannot and will not tell the difference and end up wasting my time.

I can see that I "have totally fixed ideas about how things should be run" in that I forever want deeply and solely to UNDERSTAND.  I am always expecting to reach it, and forever hoping to find it.  But perhaps it is not about my understanding.

This is however, soothing and comforting for me:

Both teachers and students do not need to worry about finding students and teachers respectively. In my experience, the right student/teacher always appears once you are ready for the teaching they will impart you. Your responsibility is not so much in looking for/finding the exact teacher/perfect student, but rather readying yourself for the occasion and being aware that teaching is taking place.

Then observe carefully the teacher you get: the teacher you get will tell you exactly what sort of student you are. If you want a different teacher, become a different student. Likewise, if all you get are the students from h ell, consider this as an evaluation of the kind of teacher you are. Then become a different teacher and you will attract a different sort of student.

Now, I must make a comment directed straight toward you Bernhard.  The more effort I make to compile and understand what you have provided here on this forum, the more I see what I need to do should I truly desire what I tell myself that I do, and it is a great responsibility.

Remember, you do not want to be a seeker after truth. You want to be a truth finder.

Thanks for the reminder.

m1469 Fox

[bernhard]

I begin to feel as though I need a TEACHER, someone who can look from the outside in and help for me to see beyond what I think I know of myself and my endeavors. 

Actually, at this point you may need a student more than you need a teacher.

[m1469]

Okay, some things clicked!  Thank you very much 

[bernhard]

You are welcome

[m1469]

 

We always need an infinite number of teachers, and eventually the whole of life becomes our teacher. Teachings appear in the guise of the most unexpected teachers. I learned more about piano technique from the practice of martial arts, than from any of my formal piano teachers. I learned more about the process of piano playing from observing my student’s struggles and overcoming of technical obstacles than from any pedagogical instruction I ever received (in fact I firmly believe pedagogy to be a total waste of time at best and complete con at worst).

I am just so excited that I am again inspired to share.  I have been having the most amazing musical experiences and responses from people in my life since making sincere efforts to take in this quote above!  (as well as profound realizations).   What adventure!

 

m1469 Fox