Ravel - Pavane pour une infante défunte

[throwawaynotreally]

.

[faulty_damper]

It should be faster.  The melody is forced, percussive so that needs to be toned down and more melodic.  This will be easier to do when played faster.  Also, be careful that the bass isn't too pronounced as a sudden dynamic increase can quickly ground the etherial quality of the music, shocking the listening out of the mood.

[chopinlover01]

@faulty_damper Not that you don't have a right to your opinion, but why is it you always want things played faster?

[j_menz]

@faulty_damper Not that you don't have a right to your opinion, but why is it you always want things played faster?

Because he's a "musician", or at least some other word starting with "m" and ending in "n".

[zheer]

It was very expressive, music has to communicate to the human soul, if it does then it is music.
On better piano and recording equipment it would be even better.

Thank you for sharing.

[faulty_damper]

@faulty_damper Not that you don't have a right to your opinion, but why is it you always want things played faster?

It will be very obvious to you and anyone else that it's much better when performed faster.  It will sound better.  But much more importantly, ideas are connected in meaningful ways.  Music isn't about making pretty sounds, it's about communicating ideas.  To really understand what I mean, go and have a conversation with someone but speak very slowly.  You'll be punched in the face immediately.

[liszt1022]

Your playing sounds wonderful. Don't listen to the haters who just want to s**t on everyone. Did I say haters? I meant hater. The only one who brings nothing but negativity to the whole forum.

[faulty_damper]

Your playing sounds wonderful. Don't listen to the haters who just want to s**t on everyone. Did I say haters? I meant hater. The only one who brings nothing but negativity to the whole forum.

See, the problem with your attitude is that even when someone's playing isn't good, you tell them it "sounds wonderful!"  This is a very selfish thing to do.  It benefits only yourself and not the person seeking feedback.  Then you attack the only person who did the only un-selfish thing, by taking the time to listen critically and by providing accurate feedback so the he can improve.  

YOU ARE SELFISH BECAUSE YOU DO NOT WANT OTHERS TO IMPROVE.

[j_menz]

Oh get off your high horse faulty. You give everyone the exact same advice regardless, and it is clear from your comments you've never even so much as looked at the score of this piece.

[faulty_damper]

Oh get off your high horse faulty. You give everyone the exact same advice regardless, and it is clear from your comments you've never even so much as looked at the score of this piece.

Why don't you get off the stick you're sitting on?  Just because many students have the same issues doesn't mean you ignore them because everyone else has the same issues.  Again, you're not interested in the members of this forum improving.  I am.

[faulty_damper]

I'd like to further say something.

If, after trying my suggestions, that it turns out to be wrong, then I will readily admit that I was wrong and never make any critical comments on how to improve. Instead, I'll reply by stating the things below.  However, some of you don't even suggest that it be tried and instead, turn and attack me.  I assure you, in the whole of my wisdom, that if my suggestions were tried, that the results will be noticeably better, and that even non-musicians will notice the improvement.

But, if I were wrong, then I will say that the performance was:

Wonderful and beautifully played.  I wish I could play as well as that.  That was amazing!  You are the greatest pianist ever to grace the history of the existence of the piano.  That was better than Horowitz!  Superb!  Fantastic!  Splendid, and I don't mean the artificial sweetener. That was awesome.  You are GOD!

[outin]

I'd like to further say something.

If, after trying my suggestions, that it turns out to be wrong, then I will readily admit that I was wrong and never make any critical comments on how to improve. Instead, I'll reply by stating the things below.  However, some of you don't even suggest that it be tried and instead, turn and attack me.  I assure you, in the whole of my wisdom, that if my suggestions were tried, that the results will be noticeably better, and that even non-musicians will notice the improvement.

What if there's another option? Working on the things you've mentioned further without trying to "hide" them by speeding up? I am not saying that it is so, but one could interpret you as if the easyness and great technigue in playing is achieved by playing faster so that details aren't that important anymore...

[awesom_o]

I assure you, in the whole of my wisdom, that .....

The problem with said wisdom, all personal attacking aside, is that you make the assumption that the the main error in people's playing is that they do not play fast enough.

The majority of people do play things fast enough...the most common problem is that people don't play with enough musical feeling/true understanding of what they are doing. 

I will admit that there are many well-known concert pianists playing on the scene today who owe much of their success not to the musical quality of their interpretations, but rather to the EASE with which they deliver them.

Whether or not music sounds good when played rapidly with such ease of delivery is a matter open for serious debate.  Personally, I don't like when aesthetics take a back seat to showmanship..... but that is only my opinion, and not some sort of absolute truth

[faulty_damper]

What if there's another option? Working on the things you've mentioned further without trying to "hide" them by speeding up? I am not saying that it is so, but one could interpret you as if the easyness and great technigue in playing is achieved by playing faster so that details aren't that important anymore...

I understand what you are saying (though I strongly disagree with the word "hide"), however, it's important never to underestimate the power of tempo.  A person who speaks with a lisp is actually more difficult to understand if he speaks slowly, but is much easier understood when speaking faster.  This is because we stop focussing on the lisp as much when spoken faster.  This is the getting punched in the face experiment.

It's very difficult to work the minute details as you know very well from your own experiences.  However, it's much easier to work on the bigger picture.  Like how Monet's paintings are comprehensible even if they aren't photorealistic.

[faulty_damper]

The problem with said wisdom, all personal attacking aside, is that you make the assumption that the the main error in people's playing is that they do not play fast enough.

The majority of people do play things fast enough...the most common problem is that people don't play with enough musical feeling/true understanding of what they are doing.  

I will admit that there are many well-known concert pianists playing on the scene today who owe much of their success not to the musical quality of their interpretations, but rather to the EASE with which they deliver them.

Whether or not music sounds good when played rapidly with such ease of delivery is a matter open for serious debate.  Personally, I don't like when aesthetics take a back seat to showmanship..... but that is only my opinion, and not some sort of absolute truth

As I replied to Outin, never underestimate the power of tempo.  Further, I do not equate correct tempi to virtuosity in any sense.  (You played Op.10-1 too fast so who are you to say. )

And further further, the alternative that you propose is far more difficult to attain as mentioned earlier.  For example, young children's speech is unsophisticated in regards to articulating the sounds.  However, as they mature, they develop those minute details of articulation and sound more adult.  This takes many years of practice but notice that they do get one major thing right: tempo.  Regardless of what emotion/idea they express, they alter the tempo to match the intended emotion/idea of what they want to communicate, even if they can't perfectly articulate the sounds.

I strongly urge you to try the getting punched in the face experiment.  You'll quickly understand exactly what I mean. 

[awesom_o]

As I replied to Outin, never underestimate the power of tempo.  Further, I do not equate correct tempi to virtuosity in any sense.  (You played Op.10-1 too fast so who are you to say. )

Since to my knowledge you are only an interpreter and not also a composer, I cannot expect you to fully understand the matter of tempo. Some people play my music faster than I do, others play it slower than I do. Either way, I am eager to hear their perspective on my music... one is not 'right' and the other 'wrong'.  I don't necessarily play  my pieces in the exact same tempo on two different days: it depends upon my mood!

You thought I recorded the 10/1 too fast, others considered it to be too slow. They aren't correct, and you aren't incorrect. I think it is you who underestimates the power of tempo, by thinking that every piece has only one correct tempo.

Knowing you as well as I do (eg. not intimately, but certainly well enough for my taste) I suspect people may want to punch you in the face no matter what tempo you choose for the pace of your speech. 

[outin]

I understand what you are saying (though I strongly disagree with the word "hide"), however, it's important never to underestimate the power of tempo.  A person who speaks with a lisp is actually more difficult to understand if he speaks slowly, but is much easier understood when speaking faster.  This is because we stop focussing on the lisp as much when spoken faster.  This is the getting punched in the face experiment.

It's very difficult to work the minute details as you know very well from your own experiences.  However, it's much easier to work on the bigger picture.  Like how Monet's paintings are comprehensible even if they aren't photorealistic.

I personally have the tendency to both speak and play too fast...so I need to try to shift the balance the other way.

[faulty_damper]

Tempo is not just a matter of aesthetics, it's a matter of meaning. Try the punch in the face experiment, speaking with the same articulation but just much slower.  Pay close attention to how others react.  It's highly unlikely they will respond positively.  More than likely, they'll think you have a speech impediment, cognitive impairment, or perhaps you're having a stroke.  A better real life example: if you speak with a foreign accent, you've probably experienced what I am describing.  You are considered non-native and others are unable to understand you very well.

The biggest problem with 'music' is the belief that it is about how "pretty" or "beautiful" it is. (Like how dance is about cool moves.)  Music is a language (as is dance), not acoustic wrapping paper.  Those who understand that language hear these issues immediately.  Those who only consider its aesthetics do not and excuse it as "interpretation".

Why are some of you so against the OP to even try the suggestions? Perhaps some of you really don't want others to improve (because you really don't know how to do so yourselves, i.e. you are projecting your own inabilities onto others), like how some people put down others just to make themselves feel better because they don't actually know how to make themselves feel better.  Also perhaps, you are using it as an excuse to attack me.

If the OP doesn't want to improve, that's his prerogative - there are some who post not for feedback (which was explicitly requested by the OP) but to receive praise and show off.  The latter do not want to know their breath stinks.  The ones who seek feedback actually want to improve.  And if you have the knowledge and understanding to do so, you should help them.  If not, then you should really rethink why you are even on this forum.

[awesom_o]

No one is attacking you!

The truth about music is quite simple. It is neither a language, nor is it 'acoustic wrapping paper'.

Swahili is a language, and wind chimes and water features are types of acoustic wrapping paper.

Like it or not, music is audible entertainment. Musicians are entertainers.

That's how it is. Of course, as musicians, we like to dress it up in spiritual mumbo-jumbo and call it art. But the rest of the world considers music to be no more than audible entertainment!

For what it's worth, I found Aidan's performance to be quite sincere, although the tempo WAS, in my opinion, painfully slow. His use of the pedal was somewhat sloppy, and the beautiful harmonies in the piece were muddy, instead of being stunningly clear. Like he said, the tone was at times rather unpleasantly harsh and forced, particularly in F and FF passages.

 

[pianoman53]

This forum is sinking to new lows every time I have a look. Uugh....

Tempo is very important, but it very rarely because of tempo alone that a performance feels slow. There is the idea of direction, phrasing, coloring.... Richer is a great pianistical example. He often plays pieces that, at first sight, would benefit from a faster tempo, but gradually grows stronger. Chelibidache is another example. He often mentions the aspect of tempo in his interviews, and I urge everyone here to listen to them.

Also, awesome_o, while I appreciate that your proud of your composer abilities, they won't really give you a better idea about Ravels tempo. If I'm wrong, please explain to me.

[liszt1022]

words

Look guy, you may even have some good suggestions, but you always present them the wrong way. You say things like they are the only way to do it- you never offer "suggestions," you offer decrees. You don't point out anything done well, so it makes you sound blunt to point of rudeness. And look, people can forgive rudeness- people can forgive great artists or entertainers of all kinds of crimes! But the problem here is that you offer nothing to show for yourself. If you want to be taken seriously, put up or shut up.
But you don't want to be taken seriously. You don't want less drama. You want to be a troll. Well, you're ruining the board with your attitude. It's strange because you seem much more polite on all the fish tank boards, where you don't set yourself up as God's gift.

[awesom_o]

Also, awesome_o, while I appreciate that your proud of your composer abilities, they won't really give you a better idea about Ravels tempo. If I'm wrong, please explain to me.

First of all, you meant to say "you're", not "your" 

Secondly, in this case it isn't Ravel's tempo, since Ravel is long dead. It's actually Aidan's tempo, and in my opinion, it was too slow, since it made the music feel stagnant.

Ravel said it ‘Is not a funeral lament for a dead child, but rather an evocation of the pavane that might have been danced by such a little princess as painted by Velázquez’.

I hope that clears the matter up for you, pianoman53!

[pianoman53]

Sorry, it really doesn't. You didn't explain at all how you being a composer would make you know more about what other composers meant ...

[awesom_o]

Interpreters often think that only one interpretation can be the correct version of a piece. Composers tend to be a bit more open-minded!

Don't worry, you'll understand one day when you too become a composer! 

[pianoman53]

What's the difference between a composer, and God? God knows he isn't a composer.

[pianoman53]

Boulez for example. If he wrote something, you should not play it in any other way.


If an 'interpreter' thinks there is only one way of playing something, it's because s/he is stupid, nothing else.

[awesom_o]

For me personally, life is too short to play the music of Boulez. I much prefer to play the music of Bach, who in my opinion, came closer to God than any other composers, living or dead. 

[pianoman53]

I'm happy you understood my point so clearly. I was afraid that it would be too complex.it Has to be because you're a composer.

[awesom_o]

I'm happy you understood my point so clearly. I was afraid that it would be too complex.it Has to be because you're a composer.

I'm glad we could reach a clear mutual understanding! I don't like the label 'composer', however... I'm actually just a musician who sometimes composes in his spare time! 

[pianoman53]

I don't know if I should laugh or cry when I read your comments. Please tell me that you're simply trolling!

[awesom_o]

Since you haven't said anything remotely helpful to our friend Aidan, who is the original poster in this thread, I believe it is you who hides under the bridge with thick, green fingers waiting for billy goats! 

Not that I don't enjoy the free publicity, of course... 

[pianoman53]

Fair enough.

Aidan;
The tempo itself is rarely the issue, and I can imagine that it can be very beautiful in this tempo.
The problem is that the slower the tempo, the more things has to be clear.

The phrasing is at the moment a bit stiff. I would suggest you to play it rather fast, to feel where the phrases are going, and then go back to your original tempo, to listen after the same long phrases as in the faster.
Also, in this tempo, it gets a bit empty. You voice the melody well, but in such a slow tempo, you have to be very careful with the rest as well, because we now have very much time to hear everything you do, which can be either beautiful, or slightly boring. Now it's, unfortunately, on the boring side. The melody arrives so many times, but the accompaniment is often different. 
Not that you should bang out the accompaniment, but you need to listen to the changes more.

Also, you can be a bit freer. Like, a little bit forward and backwards to help the phrases sing more.

Good job in general!

[faulty_damper]

The truth about music is quite simple. It is neither a language, nor is it 'acoustic wrapping paper'.

Like it or not, music is audible entertainment. Musicians are entertainers.

That's how it is. Of course, as musicians, we like to dress it up in spiritual mumbo-jumbo and call it art. But the rest of the world considers music to be no more than audible entertainment!

I have to call you out on this preposterous claim.  While this is most definitely true for non-musicians, music is not audible entertainment!   I've already suspected as much, but now you clearly state that you really don't understand what music is. 

For what it's worth, I found Aidan's performance to be quite sincere, although the tempo WAS, in my opinion, painfully slow. His use of the pedal was somewhat sloppy, and the beautiful harmonies in the piece were muddy, instead of being stunningly clear. Like he said, the tone was at times rather unpleasantly harsh and forced, particularly in F and FF passages.

Well, I can't believe you.  I should start attacking you for saying something that wasn't hail-Mary praise. So here's my attempt at mocking you for actually taking your time to listen and provide critical feedback: what the hell do you know? All you do is make negative comments and sh1t on everyone's performance...

Well, I guess I suck at attacking people, don't I.

[j_menz]

If music really is just a language in the rather pedestrian way you suggest, faulty, why is it that your understanding of it is at such variance with everyone else's? It's like you claim to speak Latin, but come up with translations that bear no resemblance to convention.

[faulty_damper]

Look guy, you may even have some good suggestions, but you always present them the wrong way. You say things like they are the only way to do it- you never offer "suggestions," you offer decrees. You don't point out anything done well, so it makes you sound blunt to point of rudeness. And look, people can forgive rudeness- people can forgive great artists or entertainers of all kinds of crimes! But the problem here is that you offer nothing to show for yourself. If you want to be taken seriously, put up or shut up.
But you don't want to be taken seriously. You don't want less drama. You want to be a troll. Well, you're ruining the board with your attitude. It's strange because you seem much more polite on all the fish tank boards, where you don't set yourself up as God's gift.

Backtracking much?

Look, you're probably someone who has very little experience in this.  You're probably only accustomed to people saying nice things (even when they don't really mean it) so you expect others to say nice things to everything.  You're probably growing up in the Generation Me era.  Anyway...

If you've ever been to a good masterclass, the master teacher/musician gets straight to the point.  They get the student to perform, make corrections, get it right, and then get them to think.  They don't talk very much since this is a waste of time.  It's very obvious to the audience that there is a very clear improvement before and after.  Only when there is an improvement does the master teacher start talking and asking the student if he felt the difference.  The key is that they improve first, think later.  By that point, the student will already know that there's an improvement and very little has to be said.

Similarly, the best conductors don't waste time talking.  It's useless to stop and explain to them the musical idea that should be conveyed.  It's far more efficient and effective to get them to play it right because then they will hear the difference themselves.  If you've ever been in an ensemble/choir/orchestra, you'll know exactly what I mean when things fall into place.  Very little needs to be said once that happens.

[outin]

you clearly state that you really don't understand what music is. 

For someone to claim he can universally define music, that is as ridiculous as claiming he can define the meaning of life...just my opinion of course...

[liszt1022]

If you've ever been to a good masterclass, the master teacher/musician gets straight to the point.  

I played Hungarian Rhapsody no. 6 for Stephen Hough at his masterclass. He was super nice throughout while giving good advice.

I've got plenty of experience with various teaching methods, I had three instructors in college. I kept an eye on their other students as well, and your rude, 100% negative approach doesn't work for anybody. So lighten the up or post a video.

[awesom_o]

Well, I guess I suck at attacking people, don't I.

I wouldn't so far as to say that... but your greatest talent, and indeed the only talent that you ever share with the community, seems to be the ability to attack yourself 

I don't think, personally, that being an interior decorator for your fish friends really qualifies as a talent, but hey, I have high standards!   

[pianoguy711]

Anyone else notice that the OP has not responded to or acknowledged any of the posts here? I guess it must be hard to find the constructive advice among all the back-and-forth. 

[brogers70]

Anyone else notice that the OP has not responded to or acknowledged any of the posts here? I guess it must be hard to find the constructive advice among all the back-and-forth. 

Yup, if I were the OP this thread would put me off pianostreet. The proportion of ill-tempered threads has gotten really high. It was not always like this. I definitely browse here much less because of it.

[faulty_damper]

Anyone else notice that the OP has not responded to or acknowledged any of the posts here? I guess it must be hard to find the constructive advice among all the back-and-forth. 

The problem isn't the lack of constructive advice.  It's that there are many insecure members on this forum (the very vocal ones, some of whom gathered in this thread) that don't actually want that advice.  When actual advice is given to the OP, they project their own insecurities by attacking the person who provided it.  Unfortunately, due to this behavior, there are many who are not willing to give their own feedback for fear of retaliation.

This is the biggest problem on this forum... and in real life.  My experiences at music school are very similar to the responses here.  Some musicians don't want to be told what they are doing wrong, and others don't want to hear critical feedback even if it was about someone else.  This is because they worry about their own inability and don't want to face reality.  This is the ignorance is bliss mentality.

Not all students were like this, though.  Some bucked the trend, gathered together to play for each other and, most importantly, established the rule that they had to give honest, truthful feedback, feedback that they didn't even get from their own teachers.  Doing so meant they had to be naked, not be cloaked with superlatives.  While saying such things made them feel good, it did nothing to improve their playing.  The immediate benefit was that they actually took the advice they received and practiced them so that they could show it next time.  Morale actually went up and they were a lot friendlier, happier, nicer.

It's ironic that the required performance practicums actually produced anxiety and students often didn't want to perform.  The teachers were a huge part of the problem because they would bathe them with useless superlatives after they were done ("that was great!", "good, good"...) even when all the students listening knew it wasn't.  So as a result of these useless practicums and poor instruction, the students who really did want to improve organized the gatherings just to have a forum for honest, critical feedback.  I think this is needed here.

[j_menz]

@faulty - it's not your honesty that's in question, or your good intentions. Merely your usefulness.

[throwawaynotreally]

.

[brogers70]

I think your tempo is fine; it can certainly work. I do think that the piece came across a bit on the clunky side and that that is not unrelated to the slower tempo. One problem (completely fixable) with the slow tempo is that there's longer for the sound to decay between notes. Therefore it takes more care to make the line sound like a legato line. If you just play the notes at the same volume, you'll get a somewhat jerky feel as each new note sounds at a volume louder than the volume to which the previous note had decayed by the time you strike the new note. So I'd suggest playing only the melody at your tempo. Try to make it more legato by doing some of this - match the volume of a note to the volume to which the previous note had decayed. Of course if you do only this you'll end up with silent notes within a bar. So you also have to increase the volume on rhythmically strong notes, to catch back up to the overall dynamic you want in a phrase. Also you can do a little crescendo with each note a bit louder than the previous note started - for some reason that creates a less clunky sound than simply giving each note the same initial dynamic. I'd suggest practicing just the melody until you feel it has a good legato flow at this somewhat slow tempo. Then add in the rest of the texture. And think of the accompaniment figures as real lines. For example, the rocking eighth notes in the alto voice, you could maybe think of as a viola line and try to shape the dynamics of that line as if you were a viola player with nothing better to do than to make those thirds sound beautiful.

[pianoman53]

I'll just re-post my previous comment, since it was caught between stuff.


The tempo itself is rarely the issue, and I can imagine that it can be very beautiful in this tempo.
The problem is that the slower the tempo, the more things has to be clear.

The phrasing is at the moment a bit stiff. I would suggest you to play it rather fast, to feel where the phrases are going, and then go back to your original tempo, to listen after the same long phrases as in the faster.
Also, in this tempo, it gets a bit empty. You voice the melody well, but in such a slow tempo, you have to be very careful with the rest as well, because we now have very much time to hear everything you do, which can be either beautiful, or slightly boring. Now it's, unfortunately, on the boring side. The melody arrives so many times, but the accompaniment is often different. 
Not that you should bang out the accompaniment, but you need to listen to the changes more.

Also, you can be a bit freer. Like, a little bit forward and backwards to help the phrases sing more.

Good job in general!

[awesom_o]

What brogers70 and pianoman53 mentioned about stiffness/clunkiness being only indirectly related to the actual tempo is spot on. Phrase direction and overall textural consistency are bigger problems than the tempo itself. Additionally, I think your use of the pedal is holding you back here: try practicing it without any pedal at all for a little while and see whether or not there are places where you are using your foot rather than your imagination to make sense of things!

[throwawaynotreally]

.

[throwawaynotreally]

.

[throwawaynotreally]

.

[throwawaynotreally]

.