Liszt TE large interval questions

[flashyfingers]

SOOOOOO….

On intervals that aren't meant to be rolled, what do I do? It sounds choppy and I don't know how to emphasize the rhythm. Should I leave a note out? Should I make stuff up? lol Is this why Martha Argerich didn't play the TE set?

For now I just have the problem with Etude no. 2 and no. 5 but mostly no. 5

In 5, I don't know how to make these sections sound better, concerning the left hand. My prof and I are working on something else, so this is something I am on my own with. I am concerned about emphasizing the rhythm without having to cut the sustain pedal off. Help?

The third clip is part of the 2nd TE, and again it is the left hand that I do not want to roll there, in the last bar of the 3rd clip. Actually, I can reach that now that I tried. I just can't reach the part in the very last picture, left hand without rolling but it is not as big a deal.

I don't have the time to keep guessing and really appreciate your help.  

[apmapmapm]

You're going to have to roll them if you can't reach the notes in 1 attack.
I've never heard a recording where, as of yet, where maybe the lower notes where moved up an octave to facilitate execution; that would change the texture too much in my opinion.

[flashyfingers]

You're going to have to roll them if you can't reach the notes in 1 attack.
I've never heard a recording where, as of yet, where maybe the lower notes where moved up an octave to facilitate execution; that would change the texture too much in my opinion.

Have you ever heard a recording where the notes in the left hand were indeed rolled? I know the Arrau recording he rolls only some of them, where he can reach other 10ths or maybe even roll them/play them broken up very fast.

[diomedes]

Scriabin had the smallest hands yet some of his writing is meant for a bear. but he performed his stuff, obviously we dont know how but breaking stuff up is not exactly unusual. Find a discreet way of breaking it.

Argerich has small hands? i had no idea. Pretty sure Rach 3 has bigger stretches than a tenth.

[mjames]

Scriabin had the smallest hands yet some of his writing is meant for a bear. but he performed his stuff, obviously we dont know how but breaking stuff up is not exactly unusual. Find a discreet way of breaking it.

Argerich has small hands? i had no idea. Pretty sure Rach 3 has bigger stretches than a tenth.

So does Ashkenazy!

Having small hands shouldnt be an excuse.

[flashyfingers]

Cool. I just wanted to figure out a musical, acceptable way of breaking stuff up, without screwing up the rhythm. The Rhythm in that specific passage in the left hand is where I am having a hard time expressing the rhythm correctly.

[diomedes]

How could I forget, absolutely. Ashkenazy plays repertoire and it totally exposes tiny hands. Compare the Presto from Scriabins 1st Sonata played by Ogdon and Ashkenzy. he first swallows the fast large chords whole, Ashkenazy breaks each one up and it takes away from the ferocity completely. Small hands can be a disadvantage, im fortunate to not have such an issue.

Ashkenazy did ample recording, follow him around in big repertoire and compare results maybe. I dont think he recorded the TE

[faulty_damper]

Roll them.  Keep in mind the musical context of these 10ths: it's to be played softly and is there for textural support as well as a supplementary vocal line.

NB 1: Cziffra, with his enormous hand span, rolls them.
NB 2: A lot of times, composers won't bother to write arpeggiation indications because it's assumed that the performer will understand that they can't possibly be played together.

[flashyfingers]

Roll them.  Keep in mind the musical context of these 10ths: it's to be played softly and is there for textural support as well as a supplementary vocal line.

NB 1: Cziffra, with his enormous hand span, rolls them.
NB 2: A lot of times, composers won't bother to write arpeggiation indications because it's assumed that the performer will understand that they can't possibly be played together.

Thanks! That helps!

Ashkenazy did ample recording, follow him around in big repertoire and compare results maybe. I dont think he recorded the TE

Ashkenazy recorded the Rach etudes, but those aren't as difficult, in all honesty. Even with small hands, there are not many limiting factors...in the Rach etudes.
I admire Ashkenazy's work immensely. He has a beautiful sound and great interpretation.

[diomedes]

Ashkenazy recorded the Rach etudes, but those aren't as difficult, in all honesty. Even with small hands, there are not many limiting factors even for those with small hands, in the Rach etudes.

unless its op.39 in f sharp or D major. I haven't gotten to op. 39 yet, but i agree Op.33 is generally a pushover.

Put up an audio clip of the passage in question with you playing it and we can maybe give you feedback if you're being paranoid about it. Although, honestly, feux follets? Broken LH chords should be the least of your troubles lol

[flashyfingers]

unless its op.39 in f sharp or D major. I haven't gotten to op. 39 yet, but i agree Op.33 is generally a pushover.

Put up an audio clip of the passage in question with you playing it and we can maybe give you feedback if you're being paranoid about it. Although, honestly, feux follets? Broken LH chords should be the least of your troubles lol

Well, the problem is clarity, in general (for feux follets and anything where technique becomes questionable). When I have to roll stuff, and if there is peal involved, and both hands are playing…

It is midnight here and I already had a few beers. I will see about recording that passage for you. That first example is right after the intro, after the right hand does it's fast theme.

[diomedes]

What a mess life would be without beer, indeed.

I should try that passage and expand the chord in the left hand and see what the results would be. Might get back to you on that. Nice courage, approaching feux follets. That and the chopin g sharp minor etude are my worst nightmares, especially if you've heard Josef Lhévinne play the latter. Terrifying.

[flashyfingers]

here ya go.

Go easy on me, I just started this piece and my attack is still sloppy and uneven in some places. I think deliberate, slow practice should fix that over time. I love this etude a lot. I am not one for upbeat happy pieces, but I really want to finish this one.

Also, this is the tempo I want to play the entire piece at. If I go faster, it would be too risky for me. I am already challenging myself by wanting to play the entire piece at this tempo.

My hands are too small. Even attack is very difficult for me

[flashyfingers]

To be honest with you, Feux follets is not that bad. My worst fear is Mazeppa. I have worked on it before but octaves and thirds are not my forte. Some day I will give it a good go, though.

[faulty_damper]

About your movements (aka: technique): the knuckles are collapsed and you push down on the keys.  This causes a great deal of muscular strain that you are trying to "build up" to the point where you can play it.  However, the movement isn't just incorrect - it's wrong.

RH
1. fingers need to curve
2. fingers need to align with the intervals
3. forearm needs to help align the intervals
4. wrist needs to be employed to help depress the keys.  The hand will move in an very small up-down movement.

LF
The motion in downward, which is inefficient.  It's a forward motion.

[diomedes]

Mazzepa is an issue for endurance. 4th variation is the big problem and the octaves to an extent. I recorded it a while back and var 4 was innacurate so i have a negative demeanor to it as a whole.

For someone to play Feux follets after 3 years at the piano, unusual. I think the way those chords are broken is not that bad at all. Doesn't bother me, but then again it's not my favorite piece. So I can't compare too any standards. I say keep going as is.

As for the comments from faulty_damper, some technical work probably could work. More arched hand is a good thing, more noticeable in the left hand. Right hand seems a bit stiff but could be a learning thing.

[flashyfingers]

Thanks for your replies!!!

I am not sure how to fix the collapsed knuckle…I have had problems with collapsed joints as in the tips of my fingers, but not my knuckles. I have a very flexible hand, but not a big strong hand. I feel no pain when I play this and I have already been trying to do a lot of movement. I agree that I really need to stay more relaxed and move more, to avoid stiffness.

Any more thoughts?

What do you mean about more technique work? WHat are your ideas?

[diomedes]

Well you're advanced and logical enough to employ a little well placed advice: knuckles, pretend you're crumpling a ball of newspaper (or just actually do it). That's the optimal shape of the hand while playing for physical resources. Along with that comes the implication that the wrist remains low (most common fault, leads to sinking knuckles). In your case, i'd say that advice might be critical. I'm trying to actually work on this issue with a student of mine. approx Shostakovich Three Fantastic Dances and Beeth Op.14 nr.1 rep level. However she doesn't really see much purpose in practice in general, so if you wonder why i left the task of fixing the issue for so long, the reason is you never know how long they'll stick around. Told her that if she cancells another lesson she's gonna forget how to play the piano... that's another story.

I say critical because that Liszt is enormously advanced repertoire. But it's a habit to fix, like posture, so you'd have to think about it constantly. That should be all it takes, I fixed it long back in university and glad it was dealt with when it was.

Technical work, i'd say develop more familiarity with the piano by exploring repertoire and watching people play. And play on a grand regularly. There's only so much fluency you can develop with three years (!!), and it's evident (to no fault of your own). Basically allow your hands to become more cultured, but that inevitably = time. But you appear determined, should be fine.

[flashyfingers]

Hey, diomedes. Yes, I am very determined. Also, I do have very terrible posture. I think that is due to my lackbof control, due to how long I have been playing. Very helpful of you to write your expertice on this, though. Thank you so much!

[faulty_damper]

Thanks for your replies!!!

I am not sure how to fix the collapsed knuckle…I have had problems with collapsed joints as in the tips of my fingers, but not my knuckles. I have a very flexible hand, but not a big strong hand. I feel no pain when I play this and I have already been trying to do a lot of movement. I agree that I really need to stay more relaxed and move more, to avoid stiffness.

Any more thoughts?

You will never be able to play this piece at speed using the movements you are currently using.  If you do want to play at speed, then you must use the best combination of movements. Strong hands are not a requirement for playing the piano.  There's nothing I can really do to help you with word descriptions other than what I've already provided.  But I would hate to see you struggle for years and years doing it the wrong way.

[flashyfingers]

You will never be able to play this piece at speed using the movements you are currently using.  If you do want to play at speed, then you must use the best combination of movements. Strong hands are not a requirement for playing the piano.  There's nothing I can really do to help you with word descriptions other than what I've already provided.  But I would hate to see you struggle for years and years doing it the wrong way.

I am going to play this piece at this tempo or the tempo Arrau played it at. I have no issue doing that. There is no tricks or "correct movements" as far as playing this piece goes. The trick to any finger movement that is impossible is using your arms and hand position more.

However, playing the right hand passages does indeed only work at higher tempos if you increase movement and accuracy. (As with anything.)

I have my own type of technique that I am developing, and I suggest that for anyone who takes the piano seriously. Yes, there is basic block building, as far as technique goes. Poor posture is a highly limiting factor in free movement and flexibility, because it causes stiffness and locking of joints and hand position.  

 

[flashyfingers]

All in all, all the comments were very truthful. I will ask my professor to help me address these issues. Thank you.

[mjames]

You've only been playing for 3 years?!?!??!

[flashyfingers]

 

Yeah, that's why I don't have anything recorded. It took me like a year and a half to get into a college music program alone, and I wasn't proud of it because I was always made to feel bad about my mistakes as an amateur. I hate it so much.

 I have been practicing really hard and non-stop, this is so I can keep up with regular students, the ones who have been playing all their life.

Also, I grew up in Russia, where I always had choir, they taught us solfeggio and reading notes on treble and bass clef. I also was in an after school activity, where I sang solo, to an accompaniment. I never was given music, I was always taught by hearing my part, rhythm and words (never seeing it) and then singing it back with the music. That was my only training, until I heard Chopin Ballade no. 1, and decided to learn that piece (with my first piano teacher, before I made it into a college music program). Then I got sucked into the wonderful world of piano repertoire. And a few years later, here we are.

I want to be a professional some day. Do you think that is possible, even though I never got the chance to start young?

[faulty_damper]

I have my own type of technique that I am developing, and I suggest that for anyone who takes the piano seriously. Yes, there is basic block building, as far as technique goes. Poor posture is a highly limiting factor in free movement and flexibility, because it causes stiffness and locking of joints and hand position.

"Technique" should really be understood as movement.  If you observe the pianists (and dancers, athletes, etc.) with the most effortless movements (i.e. least amount of muscular force and high degree of efficiency) they tend to be the best at what they do.  As such, they all move very similarly and they don't have individual techniques unique to themselves.  Effortless movements free them from the physical constraints of their bodies and they are thus able to focus on their performance or their art.

Also, you mentioned that technique is "basic block building" which is what a lot of pianists think about it.  However, this is incorrect.  If you view it in terms of movement, then technique is a puzzle to put together.  If you've ever put together a jigsaw puzzle, you'll sometimes have pieces that look like they fit together but not perfectly.  It's only when you have the right pieces that they do fit perfectly and this is how technique (movement) should be viewed.

[flashyfingers]

Faulty_damper, I agree with most of what your views on the matter are. However, I do not believe that to anything there is only one right way to do it. I think this is what you may be missing in your explanation, because I think we can agree on one thing for certain: there is a bad way to do it, a good way to do it, and the best possible way to do it. But the best possible way to do something really should be based on what the end result needs to be, and how can an individual accomplish it?

Also, you can't say that Horowitz had the same technique as Fleisher, or do any of those have similar technique to Tatyana Nikolayeva. Or would you?

Movement is always good. There are many different types of movements and an appropriate time for those movements.

[faulty_damper]

Faulty_damper, I agree with most of what your views on the matter are. However, I do not believe that to anything there is only one right way to do it. I think this is what you may be missing in your explanation, because I think we can agree on one thing for certain: there is a bad way to do it, a good way to do it, and the best possible way to do it. But the best possible way to do something really should be based on what the end result needs to be, and how can an individual accomplish it?

Also, you can't say that Horowitz had the same technique as Fleisher, or do any of those have similar technique to Tatyana Nikolayeva. Or would you?

Movement is always good. There are many different types of movements and an appropriate time for those movements.

There's a rational flaw in the first paragraph about good, bad, best leading to musical outcome.  I ignore the musical outcome because that's a different matter entirely which will complicate discussions exponentially.  I'm describing the forest, not the trees.

The problem with "piano technique" is that it's understood in the terms most people think of.  As such, they confuse individual "style" with different "technique".  What I'm saying is that if pianists use the best movements, they will all look the same while playing.  Effortless.

Horowitz was very limited in his movements.  That's why his repertoire was very limited compared to other pianists who incorporated more movements, such as Hamelin.  There's no doubt who's the better pianist in this comparison and there's no doubt who uses more movements. (Please don't misunderstand this to mean getting up and flailing the arms and legs around to accomplish "more movements".)  Was Horowitz's movements effortless?  No.  Hamelin's?  Mostly.  As such, Horowitz was far more restricted that resulted in numerous musical problems that would not be well tolerated today.

NB: Never confuse reputation for actual skill.  "What's popular isn't necessarily right."

[awesom_o]

  That's why his repertoire was very limited compared to other pianists who incorporated more movements, such as Hamelin.

Most people would agree that Hamelin plays a much more limited repertoire than Horowitz played...

[diomedes]

"Technique" should really be understood as movement.  If you observe the pianists (and dancers, athletes, etc.) with the most effortless movements (i.e. least amount of muscular force and high degree of efficiency) they tend to be the best at what they do.  As such, they all move very similarly and they don't have individual techniques unique to themselves.  Effortless movements free them from the physical constraints of their bodies and they are thus able to focus on their performance or their art.

I agree there. The main ingredient is time in my opinion, you'll mold to the piano, which is to some extent what i suggested earlier/above. Time doesnt equal 15 hours of practice a day, i think. It's developing as a person parallel with the discipline you're dedicated to. As I changed as a person through experiences and lengths of time i noticed my approach to the piano, a daily discipline, has had an overhaul on how my approach has evolved.

Last lesson i had with one of my dedicated students, I am learning the finale of k.332 with her and I explained that I can totally memorize and professionally present a section of that movement (like the exposition) in less than 2 hours. Certainly she was impressed by that, and i said 10 years ago my jaw would have dropped as well. 10 years ago I'd have taken a month to learn a Rachmaninov Prelude, now I can learn something like Prokofiev 2nd concerto first movement in a little over a month, while doing stuff on the side. So here i am, with an evolved system which required personal and disciplinarian development. But it took 10 years, and that's after a university undergraduate. That said, anything is possible with true dedication and time. And just for the record i have no talent towards the piano what so ever at all. My only talent is work. No fancy perfect pitch or anything.

So if you have time and sincere dedication, do it. And try to develop as much as you go.

Horowitz was very limited in his movements.  That's why his repertoire was very limited compared to other pianists who incorporated more movements, such as Hamelin.

Interesting concept to place on the table.

NB: Never confuse reputation for actual skill.  "What's popular isn't necessarily right."

Let's hope everyone has the breadth to acknowledge that as a valuable truth.

[flashyfingers]

Most people would agree that Hamelin plays a much more limited repertoire than Horowitz played...

Hamelin is not exactly limited with normal, mortal hands, though. Horowitz had more of an average span size. If anybody would be limited in choice or need to use movement, Horowitz would be that person, where Hamelin does not have to use much imagination to accomplish any musical means. Anyone would be limited in their repertoire compared to Hamelin. I still do not like all of the sounds he makes.

[awesom_o]

Anyone would be limited in their repertoire compared to Hamelin.

That's absolutely not true...

[flashyfingers]

That's absolutely not true...

I was simply agreeing with you. Horowitz was so limited, even his being a better pianist than anyone on this forum and one of the greats in general, according to you. So how am I wrong but you are right? Forget you guys. I have better things to do than to let a group of elitist jerks push me around.

[flashyfingers]

Get back on topic and hold a fair argument or leave me alone.

[awesom_o]

Horowitz was so limited, even his being a better pianist than anyone on this forum and one of the greats in general, according to you.

He was a better pianist than I am, but he certainly wasn't a better pianist than faulty_damper! 

[flashyfingers]

He was a better pianist than I am, but he certainly wasn't a better pianist than faulty_damper! 

My head hurts -_-

[awesom_o]

I want to be a professional some day. Do you think that is possible, even though I never got the chance to start young?

This will depend more on how well you can market yourself than on how young you started or how beautifully you can play!

[flashyfingers]

Just an update: I deleted the video for now. I was trying to record my progress today, playing at a faster tempo and from the beginning to the middle because (I can't believe I am saying this and agreeing with faulty) moving up and down more when playing the right hand has really helped. I also worked on my collapsing ring finger a lot. But I ran out of steam! I will take a break from this etude tomorrow and return to it the next day, and will probably have an audio example of my progress. My goal is to play it this semester. The semester does not start until Jan 19th My prof and I are also working on Beethoven 3rd concerto (just 1st movement, I believe) and some other random stuff.

Also, I went to a BYOB arcade and played table hockey on Saturday and totally strained my shoulder and elbow. My practice is literally down to like 2 hours a day until the elbow pain goes away. This sucks because I have all these things I want to work out, but the one time I go out to relax, I end up with an injury worse than when I play piano.   I feel like a barbarian

[faulty_damper]

I was trying to record my progress today, playing at a faster tempo and from the beginning to the middle because (I can't believe I am saying this and agreeing with faulty) moving up and down more when playing the right hand has really helped

This is so ****ng insulting.  I take the time and effort to help you, you try it and it works, then you ****ng insult me.  I guess their propaganda worked.

[flashyfingers]

This is so ****ng insulting.  I take the time and effort to help you, you try it and it works, then you ****ng insult me.  I guess their propaganda worked.

I didn't mean to insult you, bro. Thanks for writing out your advice.

I was really just playing around when I said that, because I am a weird, antisocial jackass. But again not trying to be offensive, there really has been some strong disagreement between you and other pianostreeters. However, kudos to you for your passion and your effort and dedication to pianostreet.

Please do not be offended by my (lack of) sense of humor.