video: mozart k310 practice

[cwjalex]

performing this piece at a recital in 5-6 weeks.  i recorded the first attempt so i could get the most accurate portrayal.  would like feedback.

okay round 2.  any better?  it was another first attempt and i know there are more mistakes but hopefully it's not as stale as the first one.  i don't know if it's the recording or my keyboard but when i am playing extremely softly it doesn't register that soft in the recording.  i'll record it again on a real piano the next time so i don't have that excuse.  

if you're gonna make a joke about my eyes being closed...1) ive heard them all before 2) most of the time in the video they are closed lol.

[outin]

Your fingers are fast but I think you should forget about the metronome now... and instead concentrate on phrasing, dynamics and how to "breath" on the keyboard. Singing might help you do that.

[cwjalex]

Your fingers are fast but I think you should forget about the metronome now... and instead concentrate on phrasing, dynamics and how to "breath" on the keyboard. Singing might help you do that.

my teacher isn't really a fan of the metronome either.  i won't use it for a couple weeks and see how it affects my playing.  i absolutely hate how it sounds recorded though.  i use youtube capture because it's the easiest way for me to record but it sounds really bad.  i'm not saying it sounds magnificent in real life but it does sound better. 

i do need to concentrate on dynamics and making the melody sing more.  my teacher consistently says things to that effect.  i will record it again in a few weeks and will hopefully be able to see an improvement 

[outin]

my teacher isn't really a fan of the metronome either.  i won't use it for a couple weeks and see how it affects my playing.  i absolutely hate how it sounds recorded though.  i use youtube capture because it's the easiest way for me to record but it sounds really bad.  i'm not saying it sounds magnificent in real life but it does sound better. 

i do need to concentrate on dynamics and making the melody sing more.  my teacher consistently says things to that effect.  i will record it again in a few weeks and will hopefully be able to see an improvement 

IMO Playing with the metronome can be dangerous because one cannot deviate from the rhythm at all and that becomes a priority. In real life one does deviate from the rhythm occasionally/sligthly and that is what actually makes the music alive. Playing perfectly to the metronome isn't very human. But one must still maintain the image of even pulse throughout the piece, otherwise it will be unpleasant for the listener. I find counting is much more helpful in achieving that than trying to play with the metronome. The metronome just makes me feel like I am in a rush even when not and I forget to breath (not literally).

[faulty_damper]

As I listened, I heard very little expression.  Ideas were not communicated clearly.  Notes were played, but that was it.

Do you know what this piece means?  What is it about?  If you know and understand this, then it will make expression much easier.  This is the difference between knowing what notes to play and what to express.

[cwjalex]

As I listened, I heard very little expression.  Ideas were not communicated clearly.  Notes were played, but that was it.

Do you know what this piece means?  What is it about?  If you know and understand this, then it will make expression much easier.  This is the difference between knowing what notes to play and what to express.

i've done quite a bit of reading and analysis on it.  i know what i want it to sound like but have difficulty executing.  it is difficult for me to just hit the right notes at the right time.

i would also greatly appreciate more specific advice or wording that might help me more than the general criticism of lacking expression, not melodically singing enough..etc. etc.  i understand my interpretation is very elementary and lacks depth.  i would like advice that had a little more detail beyond reminding me that it lacks artistic expression.  i'm a relatively inexperienced player  that would benefit from extremely specific, broken down, and simplified advice and/or examples.

when i'm playing i am consciously trying to change the volume at different parts but when i listen back it is not nearly as apparent as when i am playing it.  i tend to choose to change dynamics at specific spots and tend to play the majority of the piece at the same volume.  perhaps i should try to change the dynamics constantly like up and down throughout the entire piece. 

[faulty_damper]

The sonata opens angrily = play it angrily.  Specifically, it needs to be much louder and slightly faster.  The tone should be percussive.  ANGRY!!!   It may help if you actually feel angry at something while playing this.  In Mozart's case, it's about the pain and anguish he felt of someone's death.  This movement is about pain an anguish so if you can convey these feelings throughout at the necessary parts, that would make it more expressive.

[cwjalex]

The sonata opens angrily = play it angrily.  Specifically, it needs to be much louder and slightly faster.  The tone should be percussive.  ANGRY!!!   It may help if you actually feel angry at something while playing this.  In Mozart's case, it's about the pain and anguish he felt of someone's death.  This movement is about pain an anguish so if you can convey these feelings throughout at the necessary parts, that would make it more expressive.

there seems to be no direct evidence that this piece is influenced by the death of mozart's mother (unless someone can correct me) but this is one of those times it's pretty hard not to consider the timing and environment of the piece.  being written right after her death and coincidentally being one of the only two sonata's written in a minor key.  even scholars that are reluctant to read too much into the life of a composer influencing their work acknowledge the death of his mother as affecting this piece. 

on an unrelated note, does anyone else have to pause and think for a second  to make sure they are using affect/effect correctly?  considering how often i use them it probably shouldn't cause as much of a mental hiccup as it does. 

[faulty_damper]

You can (or should) hear what this piece is about without even knowing anything about the piece.  It sounds angry, anguished, sad, consoling... all in one movement.  As a musician, you should hear this immediately.  As a performer, your duty is to bring out these emotions coherently.  As a pianist, you should connect these emotions directly to the playing.  This can help with performance and memory.

It may help to hear these emotions if you play it faster.  The ideas will thus be more clear if you hear then in its entirety.

[j_menz]

there seems to be no direct evidence that this piece is influenced by the death of mozart's mother (unless someone can correct me) but this is one of those times it's pretty hard not to consider the timing and environment of the piece.  being written right after her death and coincidentally being one of the only two sonata's written in a minor key.  even scholars that are reluctant to read too much into the life of a composer influencing their work acknowledge the death of his mother as affecting this piece. 

True, but speculation regarding emotional influences should never override the directions of the composer, or the character of a piece. Here there is clear emotional conflict, but one needs to give meaning to the "maestoso" and not rewrite it to suit one's fancies.

on an unrelated note, does anyone else have to pause and think for a second  to make sure they are using affect/effect correctly?  considering how often i use them it probably shouldn't cause as much of a mental hiccup as it does. 

Effectively, I am unaffected by the prospect of the option. Bonus points for getting it right. Now, if we can get you to feel the same about capitalisation....

[cwjalex]

Effectively, I am unaffected by the prospect of the option. Bonus points for getting it right. Now, if we can get you to feel the same about capitalisation....

sorry, but you will never get me to use capitalization or strict grammar on an online forum.  word choice and meaning is important because it affects the clarity of the message that is being conveyed.  capitalization is pretty unimportant to me as i can clearly express myself without its use. 

[outin]

on an unrelated note, does anyone else have to pause and think for a second  to make sure they are using affect/effect correctly?  considering how often i use them it probably shouldn't cause as much of a mental hiccup as it does. 

Here I was desperately trying to figure out what advanced musical concepts  you were talking about until I finally realized it wasn't about playing at all 

I don't know how to give more specific advice about the Mozart, because for me phrasing usually comes intuitively if I manage to learn to play the correct notes (which doesn't seem to be a problem for you at all). Does you teacher address musical issues on detail when you are working on the piece together?

I still think it might help to give yourself time to think about the sound and interpretation by slowing down when practicing.

Will you  be playing on a real piano at the recital, btw?

[cwjalex]

Will you  be playing on a real piano at the recital, btw?

yup.  also.  3 a.m. i really wish i could sleep.

[outin]

yup.  also.  3 a.m. i really wish i could sleep.

Well, it's 10 am here... You do know that hanging on the internet is not a good thing for sleeping problems? Some studies have shown that the light from the screen will affect you long after you turn it off and make it difficult to get to sleep. Reading a slightly boring book would be much better...maybe an analysis of Mozart sonatas?

I think it might be even more difficult to play at faster tempo on a real piano especially if it's not one you are familiar with.

[cwjalex]

Well, it's 10 am here... You do know that hanging on the internet is not a good thing for sleeping problems? Some studies have shown that the light from the screen will affect you long after you turn it off and make it difficult to get to sleep. Reading a slightly boring book would be much better...maybe an analysis of Mozart sonatas?

I think it might be even more difficult to play at faster tempo on a real piano especially if it's not one you are familiar with.

i have been sleeping every night for the last 2 years with a computer next to my bed.  i don't really have problem sleeping i am just continuing to watch random videos instead of trying to sleep.

i play on the real piano i am performing on once a week.  i am pretty comfortable with it.

[j_menz]

sorry, but you will never get me to use capitalization or strict grammar on an online forum. 

Perhaps, but in any posted performance, you really need to think about including them. 

They actually do matter.

[cwjalex]

Perhaps, but in any posted performance, you really need to think about including them.  

They actually do matter.

how?  give me a compelling argument that could change my mind.  

are you saying that the performance section of this forum is official and formal enough that it is inappropriate to not use capitalization?  i just looked at the rules and guidelines for this audition room to justify this formality and i couldn't find anything.  what i did find that made me laugh was one of the rules basically says only post something if you don't suck, which is very subjective.

i also want to make sure we are clear that i am saying only capitalization isn't important.  although i will never use strict grammar in this casual setting i do feel that a certain amount of grammatical adherence is necessary for clarity.  

[thalbergmad]

They actually do matter.

Only to the over 40's.

Thal

[pianoman53]

Playing more wont help. Playing faster certainly wont help. That's faulty's trademark - as soon as he hears something, he thinks faster is the way to play it, no matter what... without any valid reason, really...

Anyways, as I said, playing more wont help. I'd suggest you to read the score away from the piano, and imagine how you want it to sound. The reason why none of us gives any good advice, is because we really can't, especially over the internet. You play all notes right, but you don't seem to feel anything while playing, which makes it really difficult to say anything.

Just the first note, the d sharp, is really special. As far as i know, no other Mozart sonata starts with something that dissonant. It's very special, but you seem to take it as "meh". It's not loud, nor percussive, but it's still filled with emotions. The following 4 bars needs to express something too. And again, it's not about louder or softer, because that's not the point. You need to decide whether it's desperate, angry, pathetic, sad...
Then the sequence comes, and it almost leads us to believe that something good is going to happen, but it goes straight back to the first motive. Not it sounds the same.

Here's my first actual advice - play the slurs legato!!!! He wrote so few things, and to cut the slurs is not okay in Mozart.

then I will just keep saying the same thing. You need to figure out why things are special, and what they mean, and how to express them. It's not about playing, because you can play it, but you need to add thinking to it, and much more imagination.


@Faulty: I'm still waiting for your reply in the tempo-discussion...

[faulty_damper]

I've mentioned this story a couple of times before but I'll repeat it here to illustrate the importance of tempo:

When I was in choir, the director always focused on expressivity, getting the phrasing right, dynamics, vocal balance, etc.  However, his one flaw was the tempo: he was almost always slightly slower than the tempo best needed to express the pieces.  Even though we rehearsed the expressivity a lot, for some reason, we never got the music; it always felt as if we were singing without purpose.  Then, one afternoon, we rehearsed a song slightly faster than usual.  If I recall, the director was a bit rushed because we had to go through many pieces so we were limited in the number of run-throughs.  After the third and final run-through, it felt different.  We were all quiet. I looked around to see their faces and it had a calmness that was never there before.  I felt different, like I was touched.  On technical matters, our intonation was perfect, vocal balance was perfect, dynamics and phrasing were perfect.  Musically, everything about that song felt almost etherial like god was resonating through us.  It was the first time we got a piece and felt what it meant.  But like all good things, this feeling didn't last. The following week, we rehearsed it at the normal (slower) tempo and it all fell apart.  Intonation slipped, balance slipped, dynamic and phrasing slipped.  And we were chastised for it.  He blamed us but I knew it was because of the slower, less musically expressive tempo that caused these issues.


Here's another story, this time about the symphony orchestra.  Now, the symphony orchestra was not a good orchestra by any standard.  Intonation was a huge problem and it was very obvious even to non-musicians.  The previous conductor always, like the choral director, focused on musical expression.  He assumed that by going slower, the students would be able to play together.  (He was severely wrong, of course, as are any other conductors who believe this myth.)  As a result, just like the choir, they sounded poorly.  But during the semester that the school was looking for a new conductor, one of the violin professors, an international concert violinist, temporarily took over the position.  The results during the first orchestra recital was dramatic.  Like night and day!  They sounded like an entirely different orchestra.  The musicians still had technical issues with intonation, but it was much less noticeable.

One afternoon, I decided to sit in on their rehearsal to see what he was doing differently than the previous conductor.  It was immediately apparent that what he focused on was very different.  He focused on feeling and expression.  He had them rehearse at the musically appropriate tempo so that they could feel the music - he never went slower just so they were together.  He was very animated with his own body, moving with the music, trying to show what the music felt like.  I could see that the students were struggling with the tempo - they weren't used to playing that fast.  But the results were immediately apparent.  They sounded like musicians, not students.  And during recitals, it showed.

There were gripes amongst the students.  However, these gripes were more at their own inability.  Since the conductor pushed them, they had to extend beyond their capabilities and this caused frustration.  But the one thing they never complained about during this semester was the quality of their performances.  They sounded much better than they ever did before.

But like all good things, it had to come to an end.  A new conductor was hired and conducted the pieces slower than the tempo needed to best express the music.  He conducted slower so that they were together, and to get the expression right.  However, he did so at the expense of the music.  I sat in the back of the orchestra a couple of times just to feel what it was like to be in the orchestra.  Yes, it sounds very different sitting in the strings section than in the audience, and even though you can only hear your section clearly, you can still hear whether or not your section is playing musically or not.  It was slow.

A couple of semesters later, a competition-winning string quartet became artists in residence.  The 2nd violinist was exceptionally good (the best I've heard from even the most famous concert violinists, past or present; she's that good!)  She played in the orchestra and one time I overheard her say something quietly about the tempo: it was too slow.  She was obviously dissatisfied and she wasn't the only one; the other members of the string quartet didn't like the tempi, either.  She eventually stopped playing for the orchestra, but I don't know if this was due to her dissatisfaction or the string quartet's touring schedule.

The point of these stories is to highlight how important tempo is in musical expression.  Notice that the director of the choir and the orchestra conductors (except for the concert violinist) all believed that rehearsing slowly and with musical expression would result in the best performance.  However, this very obviously wasn't the case.  All those details that they spent so many hours rehearsing simply fell apart.  Why?  Because the conductors chose the wrong tempo.  It's a myth to believe that playing slower but with great musical expression will magically cure poor musicianship.  It simply won't.  Tempo is even more important because expression is controlled or limited by the perception of time.  If you get this part wrong, even if it's musically expressive, you undermine your entire performance. Even though expression is very important, real musicians are not fooled simply by it alone.

[cwjalex]

i read your story and i agree with a lot of what you are saying.  does that mean you are saying that i performed the piece way too slow?  i put a metronome to the first minute of the piece and found that i was playing it around 120-125 bpm.  my sheet music says 116 bpm.  i personally think the tempo i began was fine.  i know it's not evenly maintained but i don't think the performance was too slow.  it's also kind of a moot point since i am not going to perform it at 135-140+ bpm because there are sections that i just can't play at that speed.

[cwjalex]

Playing more wont help. Playing faster certainly wont help.

i agree that playing faster won't help but i think playing it more will.  i agree that i do need to be able to recognize what it is that i want it to sound like before i play so that i can try to achieve this sound.

Here's my first actual advice - play the slurs legato!!!! He wrote so few things, and to cut the slurs is not okay in Mozart.

yeah i originally played it exactly like the score indicated until i heard a lot of professional recordings in which they took a lot of liberty by removing many of the slurs.  you think it sounds best played how the score indicates?

[pianoman53]

You think those professionals knows better than Mozart? The slurs sounds better.


There is nothing wrong with the tempo. Faulty is a tool, who says exactly the same thing to everyone in the audition room. Check his latest post; I don't think you'll find any performance where the tempo wasn't too slow. He also thinks everyone is a bad musician, except for himself, and that Horowitz had horrible technique. Don't take him seriously - he is nothing but a failed art project.

[faulty_damper]

i read your story and i agree with a lot of what you are saying.  does that mean you are saying that i performed the piece way too slow?  i put a metronome to the first minute of the piece and found that i was playing it around 120-125 bpm.  my sheet music says 116 bpm.  i personally think the tempo i began was fine.  i know it's not evenly maintained but i don't think the performance was too slow.  it's also kind of a moot point since i am not going to perform it at 135-140+ bpm because there are sections that i just can't play at that speed.

What I was focusing while listening to your performance were the musical ideas.  They simply weren't coming through as well as it could have been.  The tempo was only slightly on the slow side.  If it had more energy, you should be able to hear the emotions better and get a better sense of the feelings.  If you aren't articulating the dynamics correctly, the faster tempo will make this obvious.  You will feel compelled to modulate the dynamics to suit these emotions.  Note that due to the changes in emotions, the tempo will not be strict throughout the piece.  Angry will be faster, calm will be less so.  Don't slave yourself to a metronomic tempo.

Another very important concept is phrasing.  The phrases are very clear in this movement, especially because of the fast tempi and the fact that the ideas are elaborated phrase after phrase.  These phrases form a paragraph they should be connected together.  When the paragraph changes, the ideas change, and so can the tempo.  These changes will not be obvious if the idea is coming through because the listener is focusing on the ideas.

[pianoman53]

About changing tempo in every phrase:

Frederic Lamond does it, and Furtwangler does it. However, none of them do it as you describe it, but after long, and careful, analysis of the piece.

Malcolm Bilson has a few lectures on YouTube where he talk about this. I can't say I agree to the extent that he explains it, but at least he makes sense.

One can't just say "It's angry, so play faster". It doesn't make even a little bit of sense.

[outin]

cwjalex: All this discussion about tempo and musical ideas might be relevant if you were a more advanced pianist who has studied this music for long. Right now I'm afraid it will just confuse you... If I was you I would just work on the basics now since it's not that long until your recital and you can make it much better with simpler means. Just look and listen to the music as phrases and learn to separate and shape them a little better. Don't worry about the speed for the time being.

[cwjalex]

cwjalex: All this discussion about tempo and musical ideas might be relevant if you were a more advanced pianist who has studied this music for long. Right now I'm afraid it will just confuse you... If I was you I would just work on the basics now since it's not that long until your recital and you can make it much better with simpler means. Just look and listen to the music as phrases and learn to separate and shape them a little better. Don't worry about the speed for the time being.

don't be so condescending.  nobody likes people like that.  this is music not quantum mechanics.

[pianoman53]

don't be so condescending.  nobody likes people like that.  this is music not quantum mechanics.

While I don't agree what outin pointed out, I don't think she meant to be condescending.
It's still a whole month left to the performance, so I think it's quite safe, but if you start messing with tempo too short before, it can mess with you more than you think.

And also, don't be so condescending to music. If you have the idea that it's easy, you're going to have a bad time.

[cwjalex]

While I don't agree what outin pointed out, I don't think she meant to be condescending.
It's still a whole month left to the performance, so I think it's quite safe, but if you start messing with tempo too short before, it can mess with you more than you think.

And also, don't be so condescending to music. If you have the idea that it's easy, you're going to have a bad time.

i don't care what she meant because it came off as condescending and to me that is one of the most disgusting qualities in a person.  i am not saying that music is easy at all i am just responding to outlin when saying that because i am such a beginner that it is not even worth discussing more advanced ideas and themes because it will confuse me is offensive.  you can still introduce advanced musical ideas even to beginning children if worded in the right way.

i am not going to mess with the tempo.  i know it's fine.  i can discern from good advice and bad advice.  and to say that 5-6 weeks isn't long enough?  that's a long time when you have only been playing a year.  that's almost 10% of the time i have been playing piano.

[pianoman53]

Dude, stop being so defensive!

And what I mean was, that 5 weeks is quite long, so you would have time to experiment with tempo, and to maybe change the tempo somewhere.

Anyways, since you know what's good advice, you have gotten some here. You can pick and chose. enjoy.

[cwjalex]

Dude, stop being so defensive!

And what I mean was, that 5 weeks is quite long, so you would have time to experiment with tempo, and to maybe change the tempo somewhere.

Anyways, since you know what's good advice, you have gotten some here. You can pick and chose. enjoy.

if that was the first time i had seen something outlin wrote i wouldn't be so annoyed but i have argued with her enough to know that her post wasn't based on altruism.  setting all that aside...her post was condescending.  

[outin]

i don't care what she meant

Yes, that is obvious.

I honestly thought it would be helpful but I must have been wrong. Good luck for your recital!

[cwjalex]

Yes, that is obvious.

I honestly thought it would be helpful but I must have been wrong. Good luck for your recital!

record a video of yourself outin.  if you are good then i will respect your opinion more.  otherwise, it appears that you follow me wherever i go in order to be combative and take the opposite position i do.  re-read your post that i am referring to.  you can objectively say that tone wasn't condescending and patronizing?

[outin]

record a video of yourself outin.  if you are good then i will respect your opinion more.  otherwise, it appears that you follow me wherever i go in order to be combative and take the opposite position i do.  re-read your post that i am referring to.  you can objectively say that tone wasn't condescending and patronizing?

I can assure I am not following you around any more than anyone else on this forum. You asked for opinions and I gave mine. If you don't like it and feel faulty can help you better, just ignore it.

[cwjalex]

If you don't like it and feel faulty can help you better, just ignore it.

faulty gives bad advice too. don't worry i do frequently ignore you.

[faulty_damper]

One can't just say "It's angry, so play faster". It doesn't make even a little bit of sense.

I feel you are purposefully being argumentative and not actually trying to understand what I mean.

If you are excited, you naturally increase the rate of speech.  When you are down and depressed, you naturally slow the rate of speech.  However, these changes in speed are not noticeable.  Why?  Because you are focused on what is being said, not how it's being said.  Music is no different - moods change and so do the rate of speed.  Keeping a metronomic tempo is unnatural, just like speaking in strict time.

In this movement, there are many changes of mood.  It starts off angrily, then subsides, then becomes somewhat playful, anguished, then back to being angry.  It's a very manic movement.  Failing to express these emotions will make the performance less than stelar.  The range of emotions in just this one movement is dramatic and the listener should feel these emotions and feel like being taken for an emotional rollercoaster from start to finish.

The overall emotional impression is far more important than the minute details that you suggest be focused on.  The concert violinist, remember, didn't worry about these minute details during orchestra rehearsal.  He focused almost solely on musical expression and getting the tempo right.  During that one semester that he was conductor, he single-handedly improved the entire orchestra so that even when the new conductor went slower (which was always), they were still much better than ever before.

[faulty_damper]

faulty gives bad advice too. don't worry i do frequently ignore you.

I never purposefully give bad advice.  However, it appears that much of the time, people already have their minds set and aren't open to anything that contradicts their beliefs.  This, especially true, for those who know a little but think they know everything (Dunning-Kreuger.)  I've been there, done that.  I know better.  It's a natural process.  However, due to the nature of the piano and music, so many students get stuck and can't get beyond.  They get frustrated, and give up.  Or they keep on continuing to do it the way they've been doing it.  So, they never improve.  They plateau.  Then they make up excuses for why they don't improve.  Then they attack new knowledge that contradicts their belief system, or they attack the person who gives that new knowledge.  If this sounds like I'm talking about religion, I could be but I'm not.  I'm really talking about learning to play the piano and learning to become a musician.  Why people are so closed-minded... It's easier to do as one has done than to change and learn.  Learning is scary.  People don't want to be scared.  So they run and hide.  Or they attack the very thought of new ideas.  Only when they face reality will they ever have the chance to improve.  Only then will they be open to try new things.

[cwjalex]

I never purposefully give bad advice.  However, it appears that much of the time, people already have their minds set and aren't open to anything that contradicts their beliefs.  This, especially true, for those who know a little but think they know everything (Dunning-Kreuger.)  I've been there, done that.  I know better.  It's a natural process.  However, due to the nature of the piano and music, so many students get stuck and can't get beyond.  They get frustrated, and give up.  Or they keep on continuing to do it the way they've been doing it.  So, they never improve.  They plateau.  Then they make up excuses for why they don't improve.  Then they attack new knowledge that contradicts their belief system, or they attack the person who gives that new knowledge.  If this sounds like I'm talking about religion, I could be but I'm not.  I'm really talking about learning to play the piano and learning to become a musician.  Why people are so closed-minded... It's easier to do as one has done than to change and learn.  Learning is scary.  People don't want to be scared.  So they run and hide.  Or they attack the very thought of new ideas.  Only when they face reality will they ever have the chance to improve.  Only then will they be open to try new things.

sorry faulty, i don't have anything against you i was just annoyed and took it out on you.  i don't think all your advice is bad and i did find useful things in some of your advice.  the only thing that i disagreed with is the need to increase the tempo. 

[faulty_damper]

sorry faulty, i don't have anything against you i was just annoyed and took it out on you.  i don't think all your advice is bad and i did find useful things in some of your advice.  the only thing that i disagreed with is the need to increase the tempo. 

Since I don't worry about technical issues, I'm free to think of the best ways to express the music.  However, I know a lot of students think that because they can't play at the required tempo to bring a piece to life, they are told by their teachers that "it's okay to play it slower but more expressively."  I've been told this by all of my teachers but this is actually code for "you have technical issues that you can't resolve and I don't know how to help you resolve them."

It's very difficult for a lot of students to dissociate music with their playing ability.  They judge a piece's worth by their perceived ability to play them.  If they know they can't play it a certain way, they make up excuses for playing it the way they can such as "it's an artistic choice", which is really code for, "I have technical issues that I can't resolve but this is the best workaround I can do."  If that workaround sounds good, then it may not be a problem.  But if it doesn't sound good, then either the technical issues need to be resolved or another workaround needs to be done.

Since I can tell with decent accuracy how a person plays by the way they sound, I can immediately tell that you over-rely on your fingers to move the keys. You don't incorporate other parts of your body as much to play, such as forearm rotation.  (What I'm hearing is the lack of smooth legato which suggests limited forearm rotation and over-reliance on fingers.)  Technical issues will almost always limit the types of music that you can play well so this should be considered if you are really serious at learning to play exceptionally well.  The best pianists tend to have the best movements.

[swagmaster420x]

Since I can tell with decent accuracy how a person plays by the way they sound, I can immediately tell that you over-rely on your fingers to move the keys. You don't incorporate other parts of your body as much to play, such as forearm rotation.  (What I'm hearing is the lack of smooth legato which suggests limited forearm rotation and over-reliance on fingers.)  Technical issues will almost always limit the types of music that you can play well so this should be considered if you are really serious at learning to play exceptionally well.  The best pianists tend to have the best movements.

Didn't you say Horowitz has bad technique? Doesn't that sort of disqualify claiming to be able to judge someone's technique from the quality of their sound?

[faulty_damper]

Didn't you say Horowitz has bad technique? Doesn't that sort of disqualify claiming to be able to judge someone's technique from the quality of their sound?

For what you claim to be true, then you assume Horowitz actually sounded good.

[faulty_damper]

cwjalex,
- Play the left hand accompaniment louder.  That should help tremendously improve the expression of the musical idea of anger!  

Also, it's better not to modify the OP and instead, just post the new recording down below since we most likely just scroll down to the very bottom and will miss it.

[cwjalex]

cwjalex,
- Play the left hand accompaniment louder.  That should help tremendously improve the expression of the musical idea of anger!  

Also, it's better not to modify the OP and instead, just post the new recording down below since we most likely just scroll down to the very bottom and will miss it.

okay will try it. 

i thought about if i was either going to create a new thread or post a new recording as just a new post in this existing thread but i didn't want to monopolize the space in the audition room with a new thread and i thought that if i posted the new video as a comment it would just get lost when additional comments are added.

[swagmaster420x]

I think you can still play the notes more evenly. This might seem a primarily technical suggestion, but I imagine that it makes a big difference for Mozart pieces in general musicality.

[pianoman53]

@Faulty: Great idea! Or even, hit the piano with your first, instead of those "sophisticated" patterns in left hand. Just bang the keys with your fist, Full force! It's more angry that way!
Also, I would suggest that you, a bit now and then, cry "Oh, God, why?!?" or "I will have my revenge!" to add some effective anger!

In Mozart, as Faulty points out, it's very important to go as primitive as possible. Unmusical pianists like Richer and Lipatti simply didn't understand this. One reason is that their technique simply wasn't efficient enough, since they had to maintain it.

Once the happy part (or major, as some music snobs would call it) play it in a different tempo. I don't agree with faulty that it should go slower though. I think you should start in the same tempo, and then go faster and faster, as you'd speak, full of excitement!Imagine that you hear really good news, and that you tell everyone about it. You'd start in a normal speed, and end up in uncontrolled ecstasy. That's the true way of playing Mozart. That's the true way of speaking it, and therefore the way of playing piano!

[outin]

I can immediately tell that you over-rely on your fingers to move the keys. You don't incorporate other parts of your body as much to play, such as forearm rotation.  (What I'm hearing is the lack of smooth legato which suggests limited forearm rotation and over-reliance on fingers.)  Technical issues will almost always limit the types of music that you can play well so this should be considered if you are really serious at learning to play exceptionally well.  The best pianists tend to have the best movements.

Just curious... It's clear that one needs more than fingers to play well. But do you really think someone who does not have years of instrument study behind them could just suddenly learn to employ the best movements by just "feeling" the music more? Your examples are about seasoned players who have already spend at least 10 years studying the instrument and the basic movements required to create different sounds. Without this background I find it hard to believe one could just become a "musician" overnight by simply starting to feel more. Or what exactly is it that you are suggesting?

[j_menz]

@Faulty: Great idea! Or even, hit the piano with your first, instead of those "sophisticated" patterns in left hand. Just bang the keys with your fist, Full force! It's more angry that way!

Oh please. Surely the forehead rather than the "first". 

[quantum]

From listening, it seems the points you were discussing in your other thread are not really that much of an issue in your recording.

Think of selection of text that needs to be read: a poem, a play, a speech, etc.  How would the speaker take the collection of words and animate their meaning?  Would certain words or phrases be emphasized, would there be spaces of silence, how would changes between different ideas be rendered through the voice.  Now take your Mozart piece and see where and how you can animate its meaning.  What you think it is saying, or what musicologists tell you to say with it does not matter.  What matters is that you communicate whatever it is that you want to say with the music. 

[cwjalex]

From listening, it seems the points you were discussing in your other thread are not really that much of an issue in your recording.

Think of selection of text that needs to be read: a poem, a play, a speech, etc.  How would the speaker take the collection of words and animate their meaning?  Would certain words or phrases be emphasized, would there be spaces of silence, how would changes between different ideas be rendered through the voice.  Now take your Mozart piece and see where and how you can animate its meaning.  What you think it is saying, or what musicologists tell you to say with it does not matter.  What matters is that you communicate whatever it is that you want to say with the music.  

i know that even tempo is not my biggest problem but it's the easiest and most concrete problem that i can work on which is why i created a thread about it.  

when you say, think of it like text that someone reads, my piano teacher constantly uses this metaphor and will put a sentence to a phrase and ask me to play it how i would speak it.  the way i always have interpreted my teacher's meaning is to not make it all the same loudness and to slightly change the dynamics in even a short phrase to make it interesting.  i will play a short melody from the piece with one hand maybe 20% slower and my teacher will say "yes, like that" which is fine and easy with one hand at a slower tempo but it's insanely difficult to constantly make all these subtle changes when you add both hands and play the piece at the correct tempo.  it took a long time for me to be able to play the right notes at the right time and this piece is approaching the limits of my technical ability.  it's a lot easier to play lively when you are playing an extremely comfortable piece where you aren't straining your abilities to play the notes.  i like to push myself though.  that was one of the main reasons i chose this piece.  i wanted to be able to play it and i knew if i chose it for recital it would force me to learn it.  

[faulty_damper]

Just curious... It's clear that one needs more than fingers to play well. But do you really think someone who does not have years of instrument study behind them could just suddenly learn to employ the best movements by just "feeling" the music more? Your examples are about seasoned players who have already spend at least 10 years studying the instrument and the basic movements required to create different sounds. Without this background I find it hard to believe one could just become a "musician" overnight by simply starting to feel more. Or what exactly is it that you are suggesting?

As a rule, I try to refrain from comments on technical issues since this is the Audition Room.  If this were the Student Corner or Performance sections, that would be different and I would address the issue head on since musical issues are mostly a direct result of technical issues.  Also, I never said anything about improving technique through "feeling" the music more.  What I meant, and I apologize if I was unclear, was about feeling the body for the movements that are easiest and most effective.  This is how I know my movements are correct, because they don't cause muscular strain.  The moment I feel any kind of strain, I immediately know the movements are wrong or poorly coordinated and adjust them until that strain disappears.  This is the "effortless" playing I've repeatedly referred to because it truly is effortless.  Regardless of how difficult it sounds, it looks like I'm playing a lullaby.  This has caused other pianists cognitive dissonance because they associate strain and effort when the music gets "hard" and relaxed and comfortable when the music is "easy".  I'm relaxed and comfortable regardless of how hard or easy it sounds.