Learning Diary thread - Prokofiev Concerto nr.2 (movement 1)

[diomedes]

This is probably one of a kind idea and no clue if it'd fly but worth a shot:


Recently i spent a fair bit of time learning Scarbo and then went to record it. The entire process of learning and coping with every single one of the million technical/performance issues was an adventure in itself and in hindsight I wonder what it would have been like to document it. Almost like a blog, but sort of like a diary.

For very specific reasons I have now decided to approach Prokofiev 2nd Concerto and set the goal to make a video recording of it, as i normally do.

Would it be tolerable for me to sit in a corner/thread and ramble about the types of concerns over here or am i crossing an obvious boundary? thanks for any feedback or a demand for me to find some other creative outlet.

[faulty_damper]

I suggested to Johan (the site owner) about a member journal forum so that members can post their attempts, performances, learning issues, etc. but he said that the forum doesn't have that kind of function???  But anyway, if you want to post such a journal, please do so.  It would be perfectly acceptable imo.

[j_menz]

Would it be tolerable for me to sit in a corner/thread and ramble about the types of concerns over here or am i crossing an obvious boundary? thanks for any feedback or a demand for me to find some other creative outlet.

It's been done before, and can be quite useful for anyone else tackling the piece in question.

[emill]

Even for a non-pianist, I can imagine the insights one can gain reading through. Personally, I have found the introductory notes some would make together with the pieces they post and the subsequent discussions to be quite "educational".  So a learning diary, being more detailed can be so informative to many and will surely generate more participation.  May I just advise that you start it perhaps in the "Student's Corner" and not here in "Audition Room" as it may be locked by the administrator.  Looking forward to it....

[diomedes]

I was very unsure where to put it, i'd gladly move it, but for now i think it's easier to let admin settle when they roll along. Sorry.

I specifically picked up Scarbo in September for the sole purpose helping me deal with personal issues, namely selecting a goal that helps distract from other issues and if in fact successful is meant for personal reinforcement. It achieved that secondary goal precisely, the recording quality and preparation methods exceeded all of my precedents. Another strategy I adopted was using secondary goals when dealing with a evident giant challenge. In order for me not to become impatient with the main project, the Ravel, I picked up smaller works to learn and record on the side: Medtner Tragedy Fragment in a, Bach-Siloti b minor prelude, Sibelius D flat Romance, Chopin's 2nd Scherzo. That strategy worked extremely well. I've been doing recording projects for almost 10 years now, and my standards/methods have noticeably increased in the past couple years. I had a rather wild encounter with Alkan's 30 ans a few years ago, I look at it with a frown wonder what was i thinking along with it's not his fault his preparation methods are still developing. Effort and improvement are all that matter. One of the differences in preparation methods from then and now is heavy score study time specifically used for memorization. When I recorded Scriabin's First Sonata i still didn't have that method implemented, but was on the verge of it. I'll mention that sonata is one of the wildest dragons lurking in the pianists repertoire. No wonder nobody plays it along with the 8th. But score study is the most critical aspect of preparation, i've concluded.

Prokofiev. Concerto nr.2, 1st mvt

First day, finding the greatest source of difficulty, and determining patterns. Once i simplify patterns i memorize right away from the piano. My approach with Scarbo recently was the most methodical i've ever used and it worked. When i looked at the score of Scarbo i immediately identified bar.256 as the center of hell (for technical precision reasons purely). It's horrible horrible horrible. That was 4 months ago, and that actually was reality all the way until the recording. It's where i started learning first and it was the most unpleasant thing to play at the final stage. So with the Prokofiev, bar 154 (which most people familiar with this identify as the part marked "colossale") looked like the best area to look at, specifically only 8 bars. I spent a lot more time untangling the right hand patterns at the piano than i could imagine. Reading the ledger and octave displacements were not helping. I'm learning Chopin's Scherzi 1 and 3 on the side and the patterns in those are so visible that you can memorize away from the keyboard from the start. Not here, this passage is nothing but trouble. I will take 2 more days dealing with it before taking the right hand part away for memorization. At least there won't be any technical issues, it's just masses of notes and patterns. How the patterns are organized metrically as oppose to the hand layout though, there's no relation which will complicate stuff. The poco meno mosso part 8 bars after is much less dense despite sounding really difficult. I assume how the hands relate on the keyboard as pure jumps are concerned will be a big problem. I looked through the page before the named colossale part, technically not a big concern but needs time at the piano to plan. Then, looking at the movement as a whole, I think at this point mass memorization will be a concern due to chromaticism, how things are layed out on the keyboard, quantity of patterns and density of patterns.

If you want to see my recordings, youtube username is oratorcicero.
Please please please don't judge me on the crappier attempts. Avert your eyes from the Alkan, that was risk taking of a lunatic. And the Bach/Vivaldi/Feinbrg, Scriabin 2nd Sonata mvt 2, Rach Etude Tableaux in E flat, and Scriabin Op.42 nr.5 c sharp were unprepared.

The ones i'm proud of are Ondine, "Favorite Things" by Hough, and Scriabin Sonata 1, Rach Op.16 e min and Op.33 to name a few.

And yes, this post was long, first day off from work in a while and only obligation today was finding a gift for someone (who is drunk-texting random people at this particular moment. I seriously don't understand people in general and why i'm getting that exact one a gift at all, but whatever).

[emill]

And yes, this post was long, first day off from work in a while and only obligation today was finding a gift for someone (who is currently drunk-texting random people right now. I seriously don't understand people in general and why i'm getting that one in particular a gift at all, but whatever).

 

I am sure in the next few days. the teachers here, and there are some really good ones, will "pick-up" your concerns in the next few days .... after they recover from their own hangovers..

[diomedes]

Day two, still trying to determine where to put all the energy and continuing to feel like the main preoccupation is memory related. Got a cursory familiarity with some bigger passages near the start and middle of the cadenza, they are unusually thick but currently not threatening. The high point in the later cadenza in g sharp minor really uses absolutely all the resources available and going through it at the piano and imagining it actually feels overwhelming. At this stage technically i wouldn't label it as threatening, i wonder if those will be famous last words.
the colossale passage of 8 bars with dense patterns is solved, memorized a bar for a few minutes and tested the organizational approach (metrical) and it's totally fine. Most recordings don't play it very fast, mind you.
Overall, attempting to decide where to put secondary energy, seems logical that middle cadenza and after is one point of attack, i'll find some dense points earlier and in the movement and start cutting away those if i get a chance.
Listened a few times to the reference recording i settled on after some sampling, i consider for the first movement Evgeny Kissin in a early 1998 performance with St. Petersburg Philharmonic, Yuri Temirkanov (live, 25.8.1998, London Proms) to be beyond definitive. At the emotional high points, this one burns harder than all others including the studio recording he did with Ashkenazy. Zero comparison. Now if only Ogdon recorded this, we'd have a lion at the piano.
Otherwise today was spend on later process work on Chopin's 3rd Scherzo and early work on 1st Scherzo.

So much music to memorize. Earlier this week, while doing some work at my mother's place i almost asked her, why couldn't you have picked an easier instrument for me?

[diomedes]

Well, so much for the day by day policy. Work from one to the other is very uneven typically. Past few days however were fairly productive. I've chosen three specific areas to start memorizing in the early part of the cadenza. They should merge together within a couple days, probably today i'll begin serious work on the climax. Some passages are best memorized at the piano because the vast amount of hand crossing happening constantly. The score doesn't physically reflect the activities visually. Overall the scary looking chromatic areas are not as bad as they appeared. So far, no serious issues approaching.

[diomedes]

I'd count this as my first actual day of very serious work. I've evaluated some of the difficulty of the cadenza, mid range surrounding the colossale section. The actual colossale part is fitting the mind very easily, initially i was concerned when going through the patterns. Nothing like memorizing something like Medtner which  can be so ambiguous and unnatural in terms of rythmic structure and phrasing. Despite the apparent virtuosity, it's still currently a question of notes. I'll be approaching m.126 (poco meno mosso) tomorrow, which appears like it should be the most challenging area. Memory related progress is moving at a strong stride. I wonder what the technical concerns will be once this becomes a final product. We will see.

A substantial part of the early cadenza is now memorized, some parts are much easier than they sound and appear on the page. Bar 124 where the right hand 16th alternation of chords and thirds are not nearly as uncomfortable as i first thought and has easily retainable patterns. Tomorrow is a day off work, so I expect to make progress.

[diomedes]

Past couple days were dedicated efforts. The colossale is put together, another day or 2 and ithe entire section will be secure. That passage is not easy, some bars are much worse than others and there's an alarming density of patters and such. It's approximately the difficulty I'd expect, and there's a sense of constant jumping and motion that one has to be everywhere at once. In context of the whole it'd be interesting to see how it fits in. The e min poco meno mosso with 32nds is put together, very satisfying writing for the piano and is not as difficult as it appears. Requires skill to unlock and assemble. The part preceding the g sharp area after is 2 bars of full capacity writing for the instrument, but not nearly as difficult as it appears to be. The massive chords are just an example of effective and efficient writing. Con effecto in the middle of the cadenza is not a concern memory or execution-wise. Other early/mid parts of the cadenza just require memory cramming. It's progressing, overall the technical elements are taking shape. Having this beast gradually come into focus is a very interesting process. I sense that i may be underestimating parts at this stage.

[diomedes]

Pushing tempos in the middle of the cadenza, difficulties are finally arising. Most of the cadenza is memorized, another 2 days, probably more, and it'll all be done. The middle of the cadenza is filled with dangerous jumps, and when up to tempo its rather unsettling but I wouldn't classify it as enormously difficult. But it's all coming into focus and progress is extremely solid. Need to come up with a method of recording myself soon though, have not designed a system yet, obtaining and operating software is a time consuming task i'm not very excited about.

[verqueue]

You can use some cheap mic and audacity to make your first recording at first. The quality will be not so good but sufficient at the beginning of your journey with recording equipment. I find recording myself as a great method to track progress, isolate difficulties and get some perspective to be more objective.

[diomedes]

I don't think it supports video, but that's fine, I've found ways of removing audio from a video, combining them and then placing them again on the video. Audacity seems simple enough, a friend of mine who is extremely skilled in these areas recommended Vegas pro, but i haven't been able to install it properly yet and it was too time consuming.

Not my first recording, i've done many, always video, it's a basic camera but takes care of all the needs.

[verqueue]

Yes, audacity is only for audio.

For video I use Kdenlive (on Linux), it's simple and easy. You can do simple things which you mentioned in it. What operating system do you use? Do you need more advanced video/sound operations?

[diomedes]

It appears like Kdenlive is designed for windows, i just looked that up. I'll definitely try it out. I appreciate the suggestion, all my spare time goes into the prokofiev, aimlessly getting confused by program related issues is the last thing i need.

Advanced operations? My intent is to record the solo part, and incorporate the orchestral tuttis into that recording, which would be a video recording. That means I'd have to memorize those along with the whole. Any essential orchestral parts that are not possible to play while playing the solo part would be done on a separate recording which would be audio. I'd have to be listening to the original video recording while recording this audio layer. Then, I'd combine them so the finished product is a video with 2 audio layers. I don't see any reason why that can't work, but i've never done this before.

[verqueue]

Ah, I understand now, you need more advanced program for audio. Merging audio and video later, shouldn't be hard - in Kdenlive there is no problem with two audio tracks. I didn't do anything like this before too, but it's a great idea.

I'll definitely try it out. I appreciate the suggestion, all my spare time goes into the prokofiev, aimlessly getting confused by program related issues is the last thing i need.

I know your pain... I prefer to practice too rather than managing my videos and recordings or looking for a better recording gear. I hope you'll resolve it quickly. I hope you'll post some recording soon (even without orchestra) .

[diomedes]

I hope you'll resolve it quickly. I hope you'll post some recording soon (even without orchestra)

It'll happen when it does, I expect this project to be difficult to manage. I've been ignoring my subsidiary goals (the 3rd and 1st Scherzi) but i'll need them when progress lags, if it does. It's still hard to tell. Someone on this forum posted their Prokofiev 2 (first mvt) with 2 pianos and it's certainly not the same as with orchestra, but there are considerable advantages to the project as well, not having the piano drown out is one of the most obvious ones. Personally i'm extremely motivated by the complete liberty of the solo part, if one chooses to play faster, slower or with flexibility, the ensemble doesn't chain them down. Thanks again for your suggestions.

As for progress, learning moves on, the 2 g sharp minor bars at the height of the cadenza were added today. At times like these I don't regret a single minute of over 20 years of slaving at the piano (I think i'd say only about 5 of them were actually slavery, but I believe in growth as a person and it reflecting in such pursuits as well, so even the slow years had meaning). Bringing the cadenza to its final speed is an incredible experience, and i'm left with a deep appreciation of Prokofiev's use of all available resources, both technical and the emotional elements are brought to an incredible height. Interestingly, Ill make my final assessment on where the technical issues are the largest. The colossale g minor area at it's outset is the most difficult at the moment. The 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th bars are the worst. the e minor part after with the 32 notes and big crossings is labelled by the wikipedia article as the most demanding part of the concerto, which is absolute nonsense. But it certainly looks like it and sounds like it. The 2 bars preceding the g sharp minor area I believe are incredible in how they use the entire resource of the keyboard (highest C octave and lowest A octaves are used), the sonority and musical conviction used. I've only ever felt such power when performing something like Scriabin's 7th sonata, completely exhilarating. Other areas progress with little concern.

[diomedes]

Well, the cadenza is over and done with, it's not too bad from any point of view really, the last three bars i have not touched yet, but it's not complex. Generally in term of memory work it's far from overwhelming, and technically some parts might cause issues, but i don't see any serious threats. It's still a little early. Either way, I think i'll find those in the finale when i get there.

[diomedes]

The allegretto is mostly put together, a large quantity of notes to memorize, but the unison scale area is astonishingly well written for the piano and fits the mind with ease. It's been a while since I played Prokofiev that's highly pianistic, so it's standing out here.

The cadenza is moving along, completely memorized, again the main concerns are the first 4 bars of the colossale. Note accuracy and the constant jumps. I should do some studying of that away from the piano to ensure my mind is in place, it always helps, but I tend to put my focus into learning additional parts to help momentum of the whole. I'll budget a couple more days, then deal with the opening 4 pages.

Still no concern other than always studying on the go and the fact that one of my students, the other day, happily greeted me with Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody nr.2 on his piano and a smirk. I looked at him, raised an eyebrow and said "so now you want me to learn this too, huh?".

[diomedes]

Well the last part of the allegretto where the piano part is delegated scales and sequences is just miserable to memorize. Playing it is no concern at all, but it's not something that can be committed to memory and executed in a single day. It's in there, but needs to settle. Still no major concerns other than cramming notes into the mind, it's not a process that can be rushed to a degree.

[diomedes]

It appears my coordination is in order, I was hoping to complete this movement in a short length of time, and it appears that less than a month is possible. By then i assume i'll have internalized all of the notes and solved any technical issues.

The allegretto is complete. I managed to try some form of overdubbing to verify that the product has a future. For the most part, accompanying one self is as easy as one might hope. On the first layer which contains the solo part, i occasionally fill in the orchestral part for the sake of continuity and coordinating the second part, but thinning out the textures of the orchestra. The intent is to thin out any orchestral part to a specific degree depending on the context. It's my current inclination to thin out the orchestra part rather than playing the full reduction unless there's a musical need. 2 pianos sounds like 2 pianos, which is not what i'm after.. Typically i find it heavy blocky and uncoordinated, such an effort. It's the solo part with what's musically necessary from the orchestra. As i said, so far it works.

The scale parts at the end of the allegretto are a nuisance to memorize, but it feels like it because i'm rushing the process. I underestimated their density so did not calculate the expected time vs results. Won't be a concern after tomorrow.

The cadenza is at full swing, playing through it at this stage is possible and happens on occasion. The tumultoso doesn't appear to be a concern. The colossale on the other hand continues to come into focus. The first 4 bars are still an issue, needing reduced tempo if accuracy is desired. I'm adjusting to the voicing of the melody at this stage, it does need attention and has some difficulties. One of the concerns for accuracy is the fact that the hands cross and move in different directions, so one does get a feeling of getting cross eyed, wanting to follow one hand but attention immediately being pulled in the other direction right after.

The precipitato is starting to become a unique technical issue. It's interesting from the point of view that the challenges are purely physical and related to hand crossing at high speeds. I have one redistribution at the top of the first wave. It works well, but the intended tempo will require problem solving, since I cannot manage it at the moment. Standard tempo is quite fine in general.

Tomorrow the opening andantino will start to be put together, i'll likely start memorizing from page 3 and 4.

The main concern with this movement continues to be pushing memory, with mild technical demands.

Tonight is going to be the start of me and my cats personal Mozart festival, should take several nights but we intend to listen through all the Mozart piano Concerti in the company of fine quality beer.

[perfect_playing]

While I'm not familiar with this concerto, I really enjoyed reading this thread - it gives lots of valuable insight into what goes on when we learn a challenging piece. It will be very useful for me to read through again if I one day learn the Prokofiev. All the best!

[diomedes]

Thanks for the interest. I'm unsure why i'm producing this diary, but I always find problem solving procedures to be interesting in themselves. Like i mentioned before, one never has any chance of estimating difficulties of such a task until it's nearly done, perhaps others can benefit from these insights.

I intend to complete the concerto one movement at a time, but think the greatest concerns are in the last movement.

Disorganized mess approaching assembly:

Force fed my mind with the opening andantino, only a page of that remains and much of it is harmonically repetitive. After that remains the improvisatory transitions in and out of the allegretto, i think those should move along smoothly.

Starting to actually do work at the keyboard with the allegretto, and as of recently i'll have more time to put into my work on the concerto. With diverted focus in other sections, the early part of the cadenza doesn't get much work and some parts of the memory decay a little, and technical work on the later part is still being deferred. All of that cadenza was put together properly, so reinforcing what i did before won't be time consuming at all. A coordinated balancing act.

Several minutes here and there are put into solving the leaps of the precipitato. Truth is, difficulty is almost completely related to the choice of tempo in a work, to some degree. There are greater error margins in accuracy with the left hand jumps because the triad it plays is B-D-F, all on white keys. The right hand grips a D-Fsharp-Asharp with more ease, so leading the mind with the left hand does help significantly. Hasn't solved the issue yet. As is, that's my greatest concern.

Last year i had spent some time with the Beethoven c minor variations, tempo choices on my part resulted in me being unable to complete the task with a recording of it. Other tasks showed up and it was shelved.

[diomedes]

Exhausting memory demands finally get to the piano:

Well, it's memorized, a whole 3 days before the set goal date. Yesterday I was more than a little mentally drained from the push. But it's there and now I'm spending a great deal of time at the piano consolidating and firming muscle memory. Nothing has decayed heavily from the cadenza and all the work there is going well.

Tomorrow I get to spend time with my grand piano so I think that will be something to look forward to.

[diomedes]

Don't practice at night when you're tired:

Psychologically, usually a dead end especially if you had a long day or are dealing with demanding expectations. Meant to get some work at the piano done just a little while back, decided sleeping might be more productive.

Yesterday's bout with my grand piano went very well, nothing unusual or unexpected to report other than a slightly damaged index finger from the glissando when i decided to not hold back on a playthrough. Tiny bit of internal blood by the nail, but doesn't hurt.

Assuming tonights inaccuracies at the piano in an effort to build reliable muscle memory are a result of mental fatigue, I'd say mostly everything is in order. But in general I'd say my mental work is ahead of the physical work with this at this stage, meaning a lot of time has to be put in at the piano with a clear mind and developing comfort between the mind and hands until things become natural and backed by thought. The meaty part of the cadenza does feel like a wrestling match with an unusually large bear. Watching Yuja Wang throw herself at this music and then observing Yefim Bronfman really makes one consider physical advantages and what are the most valuable factors. with that comparison of those two, it prompts a confused look. The leaps in the precipitato are continuing to concern me. It loses the effect at a slow tempo.

Can't stop yawning.

[faulty_damper]

It sounds like you're best learning strategy is to take frequent naps so you don't tire yourself out.  It turns out that it's the act of learning that causes sleepiness.  So the more you learn, the sleepy you become.  So take those naps instead of pushing on and you'll consolidate what you've learned much faster.

[diomedes]

I think it was because i had to spend the entire day outside. I know of many people that are night owls and dive into work at night. That'd be nice for me, but the nature of this work is 1. continuously training the mind 2. executing by using reflexes at the piano. If one is tired (normally at night) then it is setting up oneself for psychological discouragement. When I realized last night that things didn't look right I dropped a couple sake bombs and slept shortly after.

I did a lot of studying during the day since for the most part i couldn't get at a piano. Which is fine. When i'm at home typically i prefer the tactile process of the keyboard, so studying is often something i stray away from. The physical process at he piano is as necessary as the mental away, so it's a continual balancing act.

My routine is far from optimal. When it was optimal some years ago, i woke at 5am after proper rest and got to work then, and did more work early in the day. But my method of learning then was not as developed so i was compensating by putting more time into it that was simply less effective.

It'd be interesting to consider how occasional sleeping at irregular intervals can help recover the mind though. I think there's something to be said for that, but as is, sleeping during the day is not possible for me. If i tried i wouldn't be able to do it. But if i become manic about progress one day, it's a factor to consider.

How does one sleep on will? Besides i drink too much coffee.

[diomedes]

The cadenza in earnest:

I'm not pushing myself with the work i put into this as i should, but mostly things move along smoothly. I've started going through Liszt's 2nd Rhapsody and a Chopin etude on the side. So overall progress might not be as forward moving.

The cadenza is being approached seriously, meaning that all execution mistakes are being resolved. Nearly all the risk is once again at the colossale. 1st, 3rd, 4th and 6th bars to be specific and i don't even hesitate when i list them. Each one is a very serious problem for accuracy. It's almost entirely the result of a distracting left hand covering the entire keyboard. The right hand is of moderate difficulty on its own. I recently surveyed performances of this, and this is probably a honest statistic : performance inaccuracies in Live performances of this are consistent in this section. The leaps at the start of the Finale are typically played very accurately which suggests that section is not as bad as it looks. Overall the cleaning work in the cadenza despite the amount of effort required is going well.

I had to change (so very late in the learning process) fingerings in the 1st, 3rd and 4th bars which is fairly alarming, and that being due to consistent inaccuracies. The standard fingerings cause the wrist direction to change in irregular ways. I'm fairly sure the changes i made are for the better. I should ask Mr. Yefim Bronfman what he suggests for fingerings. I get the honor of hearing him play in 2 weeks time, he is in town performing Brahms 2nd Concerto. They might need to throw away the piano when he is done with it.

The e minor poco meno mosso is also a fairly serious concern with jumps. But they are more negotiable i believe. The g sharp minor area after is less of a concern but stamina can be an issue based on how previous sections were played and tempo management. That means usually if you take a big risk, the mind is a bit likelier to give in shortly after. The close and conclusion are mostly fine.

The allegretto section earlier in the movement is doing fine, i underestimated the opening of it, once the piano is given an accompanying role with crossings and arpeggios. Looks easier than it is. The scales at the close of the section are generally ok but require an unusual amount of work.

Otherwise, memory consolidation is as expected, progress based on the work put into it with predictable results. I started deciding which parts will be memorized and put into the first recording layer of the orchestral tuttis and what the accompanying layer will get to reduce memorization requirements in the first layer.

[diomedes]

Prokofiev 1 - Me 1:

So my open declaration of intent on the cadenza resulted in a sort of Phyrric victory. Past few days a decent amount of energy insisting on accuracy, and doing what's necessary to avoid stamina shortages. Today was at the grand piano for a couple hold nothing back runs. Accuracy up, and full resources make it all technically very plausible. However, the last part of the cadenza gets very vicious. The last time at the piano got me a disrupted blood vessel above the nail (glissando) and today serious blood under the front of the nail (Circled in score image beneath is probably where they occurred). Doesn't hurt now. probably going to hurt tomorrow. Waging war with a dragon will get you a flesh wound or two, evidently. Scarbo never treated me this badly, sharp teeth and all.

The other trouble is I'm getting spread thin, so have no time to work on parts, memory is fraying a bit. Working on Chopin and Liszt on the side was bad enough, but today I was handed the score for Prokofiev 1st Sonata that my student has started to learn, so I'm obligated to learn it with them. And i need to start working on other movements of this thing.

[verqueue]

I hate when something like this nail-injury happen. This always mean that I can't play the next day. And so painful when playing!

[diomedes]

I hate when something like this nail-injury happen. This always mean that I can't play the next day. And so painful when playing!

This had a very serious appearance, and if there's blood usually it's best to step away. I kept on for another 15 minutes, strangely it subsided. Contrary to all previous experience of mine. Next day no issue.

Picture continues to take shape:

The cadenza is being settled, issues with reserves and accuracy are improving in relation to work. All other areas have no surprises either although the allegretto continues to be a bit elusive. I'd say this movement does indeed live up to its reputation.  

The Rhapsody is taking up a fair bit of my time, since i'd like to learn it as quickly as i can. I sent an email to the Ogdon foundation in hopes of getting information on his cadenza for it.

[diomedes]

Well, the good news:

On one hand, I can identify and present very clearly exactly why this cadenza is absolutely remarkable in its severe demands. On the other, I can proudly say despite some serious work it refuses to back down. Usually when you prepare music like this for an occasion you make sure you do what's necessary so that each time you look at it, it's like nodding your head to a domesticated iguana or something. But this still feels like an untamed dragon that is bigger than me.

But when i started, I wondered, well i'm certain it's difficult, but why?

For me, there's nothing technically demanding in this at all. Big claim, and then, so what's the problem is the next question. I'm addressing the colossale to the entry of the orchestra as the section in question, to be clear.

Technically demanding and how that concept relates to note perfect execution is difficult to clear up. I don't feel a single part of this is beyond the current abilities, but the first 4 bars of the colossale are extremely difficult to play clean. If there's a smudge or missed note, 90% chance it's in the g minor arpeggios. Then the other area that draws attention is the e minor area, specifically 4 bars also. This one is very very difficult to play perfectly clean. The mistakes originate from a incessant leaps in both hands and very problematic crossings. The mistakes that occur are typically always in unexpected places. In other words, always a new place. That, to me, says a lot. From my point of view, the mind must be completely all over the motions, notes and execution. But the passages are very demanding, and the result of that is massive demands mentally. The inevitable consequence is mentally being pushed to the limits and any small falter leading to issues. Or, if you become tired, then the mistakes surface. All he focus can go into a length of several bars, and then you need to breath.

Other things to consider, acknowledging the emotional nature of the work and the material leading up to this part, it's also a factor. Judging the approach and managing a tempo. A bad choice of tempo changes things very very fast. Go and look at the YT video of Yefim Bronfman and what tempo he takes the colossale. Bloody unbelievable, what on earth was he thinking. Once the 4 bars of the initial g minor area pass on, looking at the score if you look closely enough the hand crossings are not there anymore, distributions and textures are modified. No longer the same challenge.

As for the rest, the 2 bars approaching the g sharp minor area use to be an issue, time settled them for me, not a concern. The g sharp minor area used to be an issue, still sometimes traction is lost on the scales and power lags, but typically it's pianistic enough to allow for for some choice blood and thunder. The rest after is brilliantly written and pianistic with chances to rest, execution is fine.

Got to work on a Kawaii grand the other night, it had a beautiful deep heavy sound, a real pleasure to play.

I've probably put 30 minutes to 40 daily into this section, most of it is trial work not problem solving anymore although i did reconsider some fundamental approaches to the first 4 g minor bars. I don't work on the rest of the movement at all currently, and need to spend some time in a coffee shop studying for a few hours, that's all that it'll need. My time otherwise is occupied with the 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody, lots of music to learn but it's mostly fine. Liszt was a genius.

[diomedes]

Still reluctant:

All technical issues resolved, now I just need to commit to a timeline and make a few necessary steps with initiative.

Started learning the last movement as of yesterday.

[diomedes]

Had a heavy injury to the right hand third finger, a issue I encountered in the past where heavy practice on dry fingers caused problems with nails due to dryness. This time I didn't have the common sense to keep water nearby. Was scary as hell, but half a day later with constant moisture had the skin under the nail mend to the point I could do light work with a flat third finger.

Colossale can be play at 120% tempo with minimal concern for accuracy. My understanding of all parts just needed broadening. it's not a straightforward passage it might appear to be. I need to spend time practicing it more. I did manage to organize and structure the orchestral part to the final entry. The common 2nd piano arrangement is entirely inappropriate, so that has been solved.

I think a week from now I can start actually recording. I'd like to do this justice so more time for physical work at the piano might be sensible.

Very much almost there, don't wanna jump the gun. I'm rather displeased with the rate of progress, but to be fair I don't dedicate full attention to the prokofiev. I Find a core concern and solve it but anything that doesn't appear an obstacle I let it sit around knowing some attention and time would yield a result. Today for example I wanted to evaluate my learning. It took about 2 hours to completely memorize and play through the 15th bach sinfonia, up to tempo full control. About 40 % time away from the piano, 60% at the piano. I Find that to be satisfying.

[diomedes]

I guess this is the last push, still too many distractions:

I'm approaching the last part of the cadenza in all seriousness. As everything gets pushed to the destination, issues continue to surface. Currently, the big e minor area had a few misunderstandings in it, causing common wrong notes in leaps. I'll have to become more diligent on score studying as recording approaches. And the g sharp minor area slips away from the fingers due to physical tiredness. I probably need to know my stuff better, through that area there can't be any signs of sound deflating or technical flagging. A bit of studying will solve it.

Other areas, the orchestral parts and how they thread into the picture are very clear by now, no concerns. The ensemble work in the middle part can be a little challenging since i do recrd the solo part and then play it back while playing the orchestral reduction. Nothing unexpected however, these are basically rehearsals with oneself.

Memory in general andantino parts holds over fairly well despite neglect. But it's always there and will be. When i need to push it i will.

Had 2 short sessions with the cadenza today, were fairly agressive but productive. But now i need to memorize the first orchestral transition, get the accompaniment for that in my fingers and do some common practice with the allegretto. Some work was done today on the last orchestral today, still have not settled on an arrangement that is noisy enough, but there probably will be plenty indistinct dissonant low A tremolos.

The outset of the finale and the jumps are really something special. Wish i had more time to work on that. Started some other parts of the finale as well. Liszt is doing ok too. No major issues.

[diomedes]

Old issues solved, new ones surface:

Overall there's more work being put into it. I'm being more insistent on clarity in the allegretto and actually practicing it. The early arpeggio flourishes are unusually challenging. Mainly due to irregular patterns and very demanding leaps. Have to make a serious score study on those.

Cadenza, early colossale is totally settled, e minor area mostly settled, 2 bars before g sharp minor are physically monstrous so they deplete resources when the cadenza is played in entirety. g sharp minor area typically crashes so i have to reconsider my approach. It's consistent so it requires thought. The rest of it rages like dying dragon but technically well in hand at the piano.

Everything else is lower tier in work/results. I know if i do anything with those areas they'll respond in relation to the work. The above parts are more demanding.

I work very little on the Rhapsody since now i've accurately sized up its demands. Not easy, leave it for later. Finale of the concerto I started working on the sober d minor theme and putting that to memory. Same with the final cadenza, and also serious work begins on the opening of the finale. That part fascinates me. I believe it's intended to break the mind of the pianist. It's bloody difficult to learn. And my student is working in earnest on the 1st Prokofiev Sonata, i'm not sure i can keep up. Recently I'm starting to wake up close to 7 am to keep up, but that will become consistent and i believe at that rate things will shape up.

[diomedes]

Well, it's officially playable:

My sort of deliberate learning of this movement finally has reached the point where i have no more doubts really. I had many for about a week now, The cadenza being frankly overwhelming, if played with full intent. It's usually a damn lot of noise and if you haven't organized everything properly, it wears you down physically. Today when i went about my session of demanding play through, i was carefully dressed in layers. It's cold out, so warming up didn't take long, had to get rid of the sweater shortly after, with the coat went a few other play throughs and then the last couple in a shirt. The last ones went well from the point of accuracy and tolerating the physical demands. That meant no sore forearms(from poor understanding of the material), no excessive sweat, no snorting or growling either. Accuracy is about as much as a concern as it is for a regular concert performance of this, it's very expected that an incident occurs, but generally the e minor part doesn't intimidate with its high range octave leaps, and the g sharp minor area does now have power reserves along with full reliability. Later when i had to tone down my sound range for surrounding decency, playing through the high cadenza area with half sound was extremely satisfying. The execution just flows. Score study for this part still continues, but it's that type of study that one does in their head while driving or walking from one place to another.

The scaly things at the end of the allegretto are in need of fine tuning if they are to be played at very fast speed.

Final entry of the orchestra has some substantial leaps that are difficult when tired, so i also need to attend to those also.

Assuming my work ethic is in order, later next week is when this project should finish. I don't occupy myself with the Liszt much, having solved most of the concerns. If i'm bored i go over the big chromatic transition in my head that steers the key to E major.

Work on the last movement:
Studying near the piano with the first part of the later cadenza to develop an understanding of the patterns, which there are many. Looks like many notes but it is not dense at all. The opening madness of leaps is really difficult when the phrase is long, in which case there is a lot of information to navigate. Some of the later parts in that area look severely intimidating, but are not as bad as the immediate start, much to my surprise. Memorizing it was quite interesting, to say the least. The d minor area is moving along.

I have not played any Scriabin recenty, so Op.73 might be the right thing to do, i'll be doing that when time permits.

My cat insists on being fed at this point. I must attend to the lion at this time.

[diomedes]

It's been a little too busy, and i'm not too happy about not following through on a journal. Try harder.

Almost everything has been put aside, but other commitments continue to interfere. A vague goal was to record this late last week, something like later this week is possible, but this probably will never feel ready. I think the current issues still can be resolved but the main concern always being the physical exertion combined with the demands on the mind for accuracy in some stretches is uncompromising, and it will always be there. It's a continued refinement process still though. My biggest issue with myself is i did not get serious with it earlier, but then i'd have been unable to approach other unrelated tasks with that time. So in the end you get where you want to be, it's just a question of when.

Fair bit of studying assisted in gaining economic management physically, which means no tension hands after play through. The part previous to the colossale i typically never took seriously due to a lack of evident technical issues. The trouble with that is that it's very big and very loud and if you don't put your energy into it with the right economy it will wear you own more than it should. That effects the part after noticeably. Again, better knowledge of the score helps. Getting full sound in the arpeggios is also not all that easy. I changed fingerings so the top of each right hand arpeggio is a thumb, it works very well.

Other areas are fine, the most surprisingly resistant area are the arpeggios at the outset of the allegretto. Who'd ever imagine. The arrangements and patterns are unatural, it doesn't appear difficult and one has to divide the brain in many spots to keep up. Playing it is fine, keeping up with your fingers, much more difficult. For anyone learning it, perhaps to save time you might want to do what Toradze does. There's a youtube video of him performing this with Gergiev, he's a bit older. Have a look at his distributions, he does away with the crossover. He also does some things i don't think are necessary later on and overall he wasn't in shape for that performance, but at that age taking on this thing is incredible. His actual audio recording of this with Gergiev he adds some octaves to the left hand bass part in the colossale section. I'm not sure how i feel about that, i'm pretty sure it makes things a bit more difficult too.

[diomedes]

I'm very much against mindless practice, and the preparation with this one is very interesting from that point of view. I probably spend an hour total with this in a day or more, and most of is heavily considered play throughs of sections, needless to say which one, in an effort to develop an understanding of the performance issues, and problems. And it is always 15 minutes here and there, never all together. Changing an understanding and then solving it is more effective than playing it senselessly over and over. Finally reaching the point where satisfying play throughs are being done. Still modifications are being made. Some relating to ideas and emphasis.

The big g minor arpeggios and first 6 bars of the colossale are noticeably more playable with some small adjustments: When the left hand crosses at the start and then moves down on the 2nd beat, it should be done as quickly and quietly as possible in terms of movements, and ahead of time, allowing the all the focus to be on the right hand movements. The right hand, as with all pure leaps, will never play itself. I'd refer these resources as breadth of mind, either you can do it or not, and the focus placed on it is related to that. Mechanical repetition of leaps is close to purposeless. I've observed some players like Yundi Li when playing it, his left hand moves in grand bouncing gestures which do look very convincing, but i find that is a great distraction. It gets in the way of accuracy. Either you make a show of it or hit the wrong notes. That's my understanding of it. And, as of a day ago i also realized i was playing a E flat in the left hand on the 4th beat of the 6th bar in this section instead of a B flat, fixing that has made that bar a problem.

The e minor area after had many changes. I've turned all of my attention to getting the right sound through here, some performances lose the main melody in the center area, which needless to say is not good at all. Funny how the obsession with leaps in the top register of the octave 6ths just fades as a concern for these issues in the final run. There's always bigger problems. Also, pedaling was adjusted in this area, i now change the pedal left hand 32nd at the very end of the previous bar for a bigger aggressive sound. And, the grace notes in the middle voice go after the 32nd notes that apparently go before them (compare the middle of the bar and the treble area which has the same rhythm and the typesetting alignment). For a while i was second guessing how that might work, or if doing differently changes anything for the better.

The arpeggio leaps in the allegretto are solved very effectively if the approach to memorizing is a bit more linear. I ensure i can play the the passage straight but filtering out the grace note arpeggios and the bass notes too. So in other words, only play the sequence in the middle register. That part is usually the one to be delayed slowly in the mind. It's not very evident as a problem that causes difficulty until addressed directly. It solved the issue for me neatly.

Also, i have started using 2 and 3 for the glissando at the end, rather than just 2. Probably will scrape some skin, but the sound is better.

I can probably go about this anytime and it'd be close to ready but i'm going to continue working on it at this rate so the cadenza can properly mature in reliability.  The rest of the movement is playthrough ready and very reliable so it's waiting.

I'm back to the 3rd Scherzo and the Guirlandes keeps me good company from time to time.

[diomedes]

Mostly ready:

Today i spent no time with it, other than flipping through the arpeggios in my head while driving from work. Thursday i had an evaluation session with my grand, very noisy and very demanding on my fingers, but it was the go ahead i was waiting for. About 2 hours of playing and making decisions. Fingers felt really tired and some serious calus developing on the left hand 5th finger. Nails splitting in left hand a lot. Fortunately i know how to deal with these, in the past they were big issues. As a result, Friday i stayed away from the movement, worked on the Chopin Scherzo which i'd like to record by the end of the month. Yesterday worked through some parts that did not feel entirely secure on thursday. Need i say it yet again, the g minor arpeggios were the concern. That and the scales concluding the allegretto, but those are mainly knowledge and physical reinforcing. Ideally they are very clearly articulated, but that's tempo depending. By now i know how to secure them. Tomorrow i'll solidify my security with all the notes and record later in the week. It should hopefully be fine. Today was spent memorizing the andante from Beethovens Op.28 sonata which i always liked and never played. Having serious thoughts about doing recitals again for the first time in years, using repertoire that's audience based and sharing material that should be promoted, Beethoven sonatas, chopin nocturnes and other thing that are not excessively demanding.

[diomedes]

Today? Tomorrow? It's very much fine and ready, but i'm very aware that i'd never be satisfied with my attempt. So i plod and pick up other tasks. Performance issues are interesting at this point. Some parts require great physical stamina. That means some areas in themselves are just fine, but if the previous part isn't treated with mental command physical resources can be drained, and then tension can set in. Outside of that, technical issues are not a concern. The main issue is simply that it's big and intimidating.

My guilty list of procrastination includes: Brahms cello sonata in e, Beethoven 2nd movement of Op.28, Chopin Scherzi 1 & 3, Rachmaninov Prelude in g minor.

I probably will learn an entire recital before i gather the balls to deal with this....

[diomedes]

Went about recording yesterday, of the 3 takes, one was something i considered as a possibility. In some ways i still do, i'll put it on my phone and listen to it without the video to get a clear objective opinion purely on the musical performance. Video is very distracting. The allegretto was not perfectly prepared, and some general slips that i know i won't be able to live with later on are what are preventing me from putting it away. I'll adjust any parts i felt were unprepared (there weren't many to be honest) and try again in a few days. The obvious curiosity is how did the cadenza withstand the process, all in all i think it was ok with moments that were convincing. All in all, not a waste of time and not overly ambitious.

[birba]

This is the first i've seen of this journal posting.  Brilliant idea!  Also because this concerto is my absolute favorite.  I studied it a long time ago.  The cadenza of the first movement is an absolute masterpiece and i always got the goosebumps when playing it.  Are you going to let us see a video?

[diomedes]

This is the first i've seen of this journal posting.  Brilliant idea!

Thanks. If only this was a little easier to play. Usually i'm too busy for goosebumps while playing it. When it's done, it's going on my youtube channel, but to be rather honest, i'm only doing it out of principle, putting it here opens it up for comments which i rather avoid. But sure you're welcome to check it out if it doesn't end up beating me in the end.


As for the observations on the recent work, the allegretto was not adequately prepared, despite overall control in the cadenza there are the usual inexplicable blemishes and actually i'd say it's a bit rushed. We'll see.

[diomedes]

Went about the recording process Wednesday night. Went ok, I think. I'm dissatisfied with a number of things but that is expected. I hope years later i can look back on this effort with some tolerance. Now i have the issue of sound editing the orchestral part in on a 2nd sound track and putting it all together. Innovating the programs and the digital process  a task that i'll be deliberate with since i'm not skilled in it at all. Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninov and Scriabin as my birthday present to myself in May will be occupying my time too.

Concluding remarks with the learning process:

I'm going to continue to promote the idea that technical challenges often relate to a chosen tempo. For that reason the allegretto is done at a fairly fast speed and most of it was verified with a metronome so that it was all at a unified tempo. That said, the close of the allegretto can be impractical for the above reasons. A couple other parts as mentioned before are easy to underestimate technically, given the focus of the movement in general is on the cadenza.

The cadenza, i think it presents some very unusual challenges that i have not found in the past and some that appeared simple enough but required enormous problem solving. It's probably constructed that way consciously by the composer and those facts are echoed by the fact that many professionals have a rough time with it too. As i expected from the start, the problem solving procedures took the longest and i'm very unhappy that it took 3 months to deal with but i'm also balancing other repertoire on the side. As is, i could probably manage 3 movements of this concerto for a presentation. All 4 would push me over the edge, I feel sympathy for even a professional being told to deal with this. Additionally, learning repertoire is very difficult part of playing piano. It's much easier to return to something than learn and present it right away. Maybe in several years it wouldn't be impractical. I plan to get this whole thing together by the end of the year, I think the worst part of it is over.

Also, i'll add that this thing took a pretty noticeable toll on my fingers. I've never had calluses on my fingers before, and i have the bigger one on my left hand 5th finger. After learning this you'll have some pretty confident octave leap improvement. Especially with octave leaps of 6ths in the right, the accuracy with that was ridiculous. Learn the colossale part first, it'll be a thorn in the side from the beginning to the bitter end. I think i'd rather do Gaspard de la nuit again than this to be honest and that's pretty scary.