(i think) my teacher doesn't take me seriously

[chopincat]

I've been playing piano for 10 years, and at this point I know I'm not going to be a professional. I'm just not at the level I would need to be at for my age group, and I've come to terms with that. But that doesn't stop me from loving it. I get so much joy out of piano, and making music in general. I'm really passionate about it, and I hope that I can have a music-related career, even if it doesn't involve performing.

Because of this, I want to expand my musical knowledge as much as I can, and take advantage of all the opportunities I can get (and I have a lot of them, living in a big city). But whenever I ask my teacher about things like theory classes or competitions or even trying to pick some of my own pieces, she almost always discourages me and says things like "I think that would be too stressful for you" or "that would be too much for you" or "you don't need to do that." I don't think she realizes just how into music and piano I am, and that's pretty understandable considering I'm not a super advanced student. But I still take it a lot more seriously than she seems to realize, and I wish she would treat me with the same amount of seriousness. I love my teacher and I've had her forever, but right now I'm really frustrated because I feel like we're misunderstanding each other about this. How do I express this to her without being rude or making a fool of myself?

[outin]

Why would you need your teacher to do things for you? If you want to expand your knowledge in music and theory just start doing it. Show some initiative and her views of you may change.

[chopincat]

It's not that I want her to do things for me, but when I ask her for advice about doing something and she discourages me from doing it, it would be like disobeying a parent if I went on and did it anyway. Of course I could do it, but I would be really worried about insulting her.

[chopincat]

I think I feel especially wary about it because one of her students just kind of up and left her for a prestigious music school. The student didn't even warn her about it except to tell her she would miss a lesson due to the audition. I don't want to come off like that by disobeying her or doing things without telling her.

[quantum]

I don't think she realizes just how into music and piano I am, and that's pretty understandable considering I'm not a super advanced student. But I still take it a lot more seriously than she seems to realize, and I wish she would treat me with the same amount of seriousness.

Have you tried communicating this to your teacher?

It's not that I want her to do things for me, but when I ask her for advice about doing something and she discourages me from doing it, it would be like disobeying a parent if I went on and did it anyway. Of course I could do it, but I would be really worried about insulting her.

I would think it silly to expect one to do absolutely everything one's teacher says verbatim.  What is insulting about exploring something on your own?  There is a difference between listening and agreeing.  You should listen to what your teacher says, but you should not be bound to it by the simple fact that it is your teacher.  Anyone that has experienced music education in schools with multiple teachers knows that teachers will disagree on a number of matters, as well as having been taught contrasting viewpoints on a given subject.  You will drive yourself mad if you were to try to obey every little tidbit each of your teachers professes.  They are there to present you with options, it is up to you to choose the option you wish to pursue. 

Be upfront with your teacher, acknowledge her opinion, and state you want to try something different.  Many respectable teachers will be understanding of a student exploring parallel educational opportunities.  It is how students gain a breadth of knowledge on just how many approaches there are to learning. 

Here's a statement one of my teachers frequently told her students: you don't have to do anything I tell you, as long as you do something. 

[Bob]

I didn't read the whole post, but if you want to do something, go ahead and do it.  Either the teacher helps or not.  You really end up teaching yourself and figuring out how you learn.  Don't let your teacher hold you back.

If it's something like the traditional teacher for tradition lessons (ie working on pieces all the time), use them for that.  If they don't really teach much theory or ear training, find someone (like those classes) who does.  

I'd mention it to the teacher (sounds like you have), but it's not their call.  

And that traditional teacher is paid by you.  If you don't have enough time, fine... Maybe you go focus on theory or ear training and do lessons bi-weekly, monthly, or take a break for six months.  What's the traditional teacher really going to do?  They won't like it of course, but they're probably still going to teach you as much as they can, ie meet with you, give you advice, get paid.  That's going to be a pretty strong message to them if you knocking out some income from them -- ie They could have taught you more theory or ear training and kept you on as a student.

[theholygideons]

It's not that I want her to do things for me, but when I ask her for advice about doing something and she discourages me from doing it, it would be like disobeying a parent if I went on and did it anyway. Of course I could do it, but I would be really worried about insulting her.

Find a new teacher, problem solved! preferably try find someone who is still young and either just graduated or still in university for I feel they would be more understanding of your needs, not some old teacher who probably never excelled her fullest and is trying to hold you back due to her ignorance. Also, it's not THAT hard to teach yourself everything theory-wise about music.

[Bob]

Drilling on theory and ear training was something even classes didn't really focus on, drilling to become really fluent with things.  I did that on my own for what I've done. 

[chopincat]

Find a new teacher, problem solved!

If you don't have enough time, fine... Maybe you go focus on theory or ear training and do lessons bi-weekly, monthly, or take a break for six months.  What's the traditional teacher really going to do?

Oh no! I guess I really didn't explain explain my situation properly. I've literally known my teacher since I was little. She's the only teacher I've ever had, and I'm perfectly fine with that because she's an amazing teacher. I have a really strong relationship with her and she knows me really well, for the most part anyway. I think the reason she doesn't understand my intentions with music is that the only music-related thing she sees me do is piano performance, which like I said I'm not the best of the best at. But that aside, it's not the type of situation where I would just get a new teacher or cut back on lessons! We just haven't communicated well on this one topic, and I might be more to blame than her. I haven't really voiced how important music is to me to her because I feel like it would sound ridiculous coming from a less-than-extraordinary piano student.

I would think it silly to expect one to do absolutely everything one's teacher says verbatim.

I agree, but in my situation - mostly just because I've known my teacher for so long - it would kind of be a big deal for me to directly disobey her. I really meant it when I said it would be like disobeying a parent!

preferably try find someone who is still young and either just graduated or still in university for I feel they would be more understanding of your needs, not some old teacher who probably never excelled her fullest and is trying to hold you back due to her ignorance.

Do you really believe this??? That some young, inexperienced person who has had little or no students would be better at teaching than someone who has been teaching for years and has had tons of students? That someone who is still ambitious and concerned about making it themselves is going to be more helpful than someone who accepts the fact that they're not going to make it, but has helped dozens of their students do so? That doesn't seem very logical to me.

[brogers70]

I'm with the folks who say think about finding a new teacher. First, tell her what you told us. If she doesn't get it and doesn't change, find a new teacher. You pay her; she doesn't pay you. If you're not happy with how your lessons are going, find someone else. It can be hard to leave any relationship that's been going on for a long time, but if it's not working for you, you may have to bite the bullet and move on. You say you live in a big city; there must be plenty of other teachers to choose from.

[cwjalex]

before searching for a new teacher you should try communicating this with her.  you pay him/her for lessons and you are perfectly justified in having some control in the structure and direction of the lesson.  furthermore, if you have known your teacher for as long as you say it shouldn't be difficult to talk to him/her about this. 

[outin]

Oh no! I guess I really didn't explain explain my situation properly. I've literally known my teacher since I was little. She's the only teacher I've ever had, and I'm perfectly fine with that because she's an amazing teacher. I have a really strong relationship with her and she knows me really well, for the most part anyway.

I think here is the problem actually. You don't need to get a new piano teacher, but things do need to change. You have too much emotionally invested in your teacher, things that have nothing to do with piano teaching. She is there to teach you to play piano, but it's not really her job to guide your journey through music. She's also not your parent or best friend. If you assume she'd be insulted by your other activities, it's assuming what you do is extremely important to her on an emotional level. It most probably isn't since you're just another student among others. Distance yourself emotionally from the situation and you'll see that there's really not much of a problem here.

[jknott]

I'd second what outin has said. Also, if you've had your teacher for so long, she may not realise that you've grown up - like parents sometimes don't, though generally they have to confront it at some point!

Like you, I had the same teacher from age 8 to age 18, and once she realised I wasn't going to go on to do music as a career (I did languages at university), I felt she'd given up on taking me seriously. I then didn't really play much for over 30 years, but have taken up piano again with a teacher who does take me seriously, as someone who wants to pursue piano in my spare time, in the last couple of years. You clearly want to continue with musical interests so I'd advise you to be a little bolder and try to establish a more adult relationship with your teacher, and if she doesn't respond that's the time to look for someone else.

[theholygideons]

Do you really believe this??? That some young, inexperienced person who has had little or no students would be better at teaching than someone who has been teaching for years and has had tons of students? That someone who is still ambitious and concerned about making it themselves is going to be more helpful than someone who accepts the fact that they're not going to make it, but has helped dozens of their students do so? That doesn't seem very logical to me.

Neither do you. A pianist in their mid twenties has probably played the piano for twice as long as you have and would already have countless insights on pieces he has played and probably still has under his fingers and would therefore be more able to demonstrate. Considering that you've only played for 10 years, it is a little pretentious to be looking down on finding younger teachers

[hardy_practice]

10 years?! Either you're lazy or she's not much of a teacher.  The answer is therefore quite obvious.  

[pianoman53]

There's an easy and scary solution here. Call her and talk to her. Explain that you want to have music as a career. Don't point out what she's doing wrong, because she'll not understand it the way you want her to. Try to not bring her into it at all, but just what you want.

[verqueue]

The other thing is that you don't have any experience with other teachers. You don't know what possibilities the other teacher may give you. Your and hers personal relation shouldn't affect your progress. If it affects this it means that it's time for a change. Of course, teacher and student should have some kind of bond, but it should serve student progress.

It's nothing wrong in changing a teacher. 10 years with one teacher is so long time... If she is a good teacher she knows that. Maybe she doesn't feel that she can teach you anymore. I usually changed teachers every 5 years.

And don't pry young, graduated pianists as a teachers... Look for example for old videos by Josh Wright. Even in the videos he seems to be very good teacher with extensive knowledge. Also young teachers usually are more open to new ideas and more flexible. They are more accustomed to learn new things.

[bernadette60614]

I've had three teachers and each one had a different approach.  It may not be that this teacher doesn't take you seriously, but her approach is more on learning pieces than on learning underlying theory.  A website recommended here is teoria, which is a good self-study on music theory.

[chopincat]

It most probably isn't since you're just another student among others.

Actually she's also my neighbor, a good friend of my parents, and the mom of a friend of mine. Even if she didn't teach me piano I'd still probably see her a lot.

Neither do you. A pianist in their mid twenties has probably played the piano for twice as long as you have and would already have countless insights on pieces he has played and probably still has under his fingers and would therefore be more able to demonstrate. Considering that you've only played for 10 years, it is a little pretentious to be looking down on finding younger teachers

When did I ever say I would be good teacher?? I wouldn't be, and even if I'd been playing for 30 years I still wouldn't be, because I wouldn't have any teaching experience. There's a big difference between being good at something and being good at teaching something. I've experienced this so much in my life. I've had quite a few really smart school teachers with Ph.Ds in things like history and chemistry, but didn't have teaching degrees and had little or no experience teaching. And they've all been awful school teachers!! On the other hand, my teachers who devoted themselves to teaching early on and have been doing it for a while tend to be wonderful.

10 years?! Either you're lazy or she's not much of a teacher.  The answer is therefore quite obvious. 

I don't really understand what you mean by this. 10 years isn't really anything unusual when you find a very good teacher, especially when you're a kid (I'm 15). Can you explain?

There's an easy and scary solution here. Call her and talk to her. Explain that you want to have music as a career. Don't point out what she's doing wrong, because she'll not understand it the way you want her to. Try to not bring her into it at all, but just what you want.

Thank you, I think you've hit the nail right on the head. This is what I needed to hear. It certainly seems like an easy (but scary!) solution.

[louispodesta]

Find a new teacher, problem solved! preferably try find someone who is still young and either just graduated or still in university for I feel they would be more understanding of your needs, not some old teacher who probably never excelled her fullest and is trying to hold you back due to her ignorance. Also, it's not THAT hard to teach yourself everything theory-wise about music.

A couple of years ago, I mentored an 18 year old female who had somewhat the same problem.  The first thing I did was to find her a great Taubman teacher in her area.  That part was easy.

The hard part was getting her to believe that her teacher "did not" actually have her best interests at heart by not encouraging her to do more.  I do not mean to sound misogynous, but I have never heard of this problem occurring with a male student.

Even after I got the student to switch to the Taubman teacher, it was several months before she got up the courage to quit her old teacher.  Needless to say, her progress under the new teacher has been phenomenal compared to what essentially amounted to chasing her tail under her prior instructor.

You already have a mother and father, and what you don't need is another one.  What you do need is a dedicated, smart, and supportive teacher.

Please send me a PM, if you need help in finding a good Taubman teacher.  Unless you have severe physical restrictions, there is no reason you shouldn't be playing at a level far above from where you say you are now.
 

[theholygideons]

When did I ever say I would be good teacher?? I wouldn't be, and even if I'd been playing for 30 years I still wouldn't be, because I wouldn't have any teaching experience. There's a big difference between being good at something and being good at teaching something. I've experienced this so much in my life. I've had quite a few really smart school teachers with Ph.Ds in things like history and chemistry, but didn't have teaching degrees and had little or no experience teaching. And they've all been awful school teachers!! On the other hand, my teachers who devoted themselves to teaching early on and have been doing it for a while tend to be wonderful.

You clearly mistake a purely academic subject with music, which is both a craft and theory, for which a working pianist would be just as beneficial. Also, I don't know what sort of school you go to, but if you ever went to a top school, you'd realise the more motivated and talented students end up becoming more knowledgeable than the teachers and more keen to give back what they have learnt.

[chopincat]

Also, I don't know what sort of school you go to, but if you ever went to a top school, you'd realise the more motivated and talented students end up becoming more knowledgeable than the teachers and more keen to give back what they have learnt.

I'm not entirely sure whether you're talking about music school or academic school right now. But in terms of academic school, I can assure you that I go to an extremely prestigious high school where yes, some of us are more knowledgeable than our teachers. But that still doesn't mean we'd make better teachers. I think you are underestimating how difficult it is to be a good teacher and communicate ideas properly and fully understand how to help a student. You can be a complete genius or virtuoso, but that doesn't mean you'll have the skills to help someone else become a genius or virtuoso.

But none of this is really relevant as I'm not even seeking a new teacher.

[theholygideons]

I'm not entirely sure whether you're talking about music school or academic school right now. But in terms of academic school, I can assure you that I go to an extremely prestigious high school where yes, some of us are more knowledgeable than our teachers. But that still doesn't mean we'd make better teachers. I think you are underestimating how difficult it is to be a good teacher and communicate ideas properly and fully understand how to help a student. You can be a complete genius or virtuoso, but that doesn't mean you'll have the skills to help someone else become a genius or virtuoso.

But none of this is really relevant as I'm not even seeking a new teacher.

For sure, i'm just giving you my angle on things.

[louispodesta]

I have never done this before, and it may seem that I am betraying a confidence, but in the final analysis, I think the OP is more than worth the effort.  Also, I have been through this with an 18 year old female in much the same situation, which involves an overly emotional attachment to ones teacher.

For some reason, the OP, who is 15 YEARS OLD, and has been studying with this neighbor friend for

[louispodesta]

(continuation of prior post)
thinks that because she cannot play at a level equivalent to 16-18 year olds (who are in the pre-college division at Juilliard) that it is time for her to hang up her spurs and try something else.

I advised her to find a good Taubman teacher in her city, and (this speaks volumes about her teacher) she had never heard of Dorothy Taubman.

So, to review, we have an obviously very intelligent young lady, who has not finally matured physically in terms of musco-skeletal development, telling us to advise her on how to take a different path because, at the age of 15, SHE IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!

[j_menz]

I have never done this before, and it may seem that I am betraying a confidence, but in the final analysis,

That you would pass on personal information, presumably given in private, for the purpose of this self serving drivel is contemptible.

studying with this neighbor friend for

(continuation of prior post)
thinks that because

Don't drink and post kiddies - it can't end well!

she had never heard of Dorothy Taubman.

Nor had Liszt, Godowsky or indeed Earl Wild at OP's age. And just look how that held them back.  

[theholygideons]

That you would pass on personal information, presumably given in private, for the purpose of this self serving drivel in contemptible.


Don't drink and post kiddies - it can't end well!

Nor had Liszt, Godowsky or indeed Earl Wild at OP's age. And just look how that held them back. 

Godowsky was a already demigod at that age.

[bernadette60614]

I'm in the U.S. and there are some teachers who teach elementary school students their entire careers and others who teach at the higher grades their entire careers. Very seldom do elementary school teachers become high school teachers and vice versa.  Each group teaches, but it is not only that the subject matter differs, but the approach differs.

Your teacher might be an exceptional teacher for younger students, and an unexceptional teacher for more developed students.  If you feel that is the case, perhaps the best approach is to simply say to her:  I've learned so much from you.  I feel now that I'm older that I would like to focus more learning more theory.  Is there a piano teacher colleague whom you could recommend that would focus more on those areas and could you refer them to me?

You're not telling her she's a "bad" teacher (or your parents, if this is a family friend) you're simply saying:  I'm ready for a different type of teaching.

GL!  I admire that you want to be challenged, and don't be discouraged!

[chopincat]

thinks that because she cannot play at a level equivalent to 16-18 year olds (who are in the pre-college division at Juilliard) that it is time for her to hang up her spurs and try something else.

I never once said this... at all. I love piano and I'm never quitting as far as I'm concerned! I'm just realistic enough to know that I'm not going to be a concert pianist, and that doesn't bother me.

telling us to advise her on how to take a different path because, at the age of 15, SHE IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!

Once again, I never said this. Funny how you claim that you know my situation so well, and yet you don't even know the basic information!!

I think the OP is more than worth the effort.

This is so hypocritical considering you told me - multiple times - that you "genuinely have my best interests at heart." So how on earth do you expect me to believe you when you tell me that my teacher does not??

[bronnestam]

You are 15? Well, then I would not bother at all about "not being good enough for your age". That is, if you want to become a professional, you have ALL the chances. Never mind that progidy myth, it is just this - a myth, kept alive by those who want to protect their own interest. You can be and become everything you want. Period. Never let any idiot tell you anything else.

I think it is very encouraging and exciting to have more than teacher. This past summer I spent a week at Chetham's piano summer school in Manchester, UK, and it was unbelievably nice. I am not an upcoming young concert pianist star, I am 48 and just a happy amateur who plays for pleasure and I'm not very advanced either. The mixture of students at the piano school was most stimulating. The youngest were 9 or so, the oldest close to 80. The faculty consisted of renowned piano stars like Noriko Ogawa and Leslie Howard, and all they asked from you was to love the piano. I met people who were planning for their next CD release and I met a girl who had just been playing for 6 months, and everything inbetween. So I just enjoyed the atmosphere and learned A LOT, of course. And of course I will go back ... I have also enrolled for another piano summer school here in my home country this summer.

And here, back home, I have my own teacher who I met 2 years ago. We get along very well and she is constantly encouraging me and thinks it is very exciting that I do this other stuff in parallel to her lessons. I also know a concert pianist who is willing to give me a few lessons. And this is not because I think I will become the next Argerich next year, but because I like to play the piano. 

I think you should happily continue with your lessons with your regular teacher, and also most happily add other courses and lessons with other teachers if you like. Nobody has the right to tell you that you are not "good enough", or what your skill level "ought to be" right now. Why your teacher is not encouraging you right now, I don't know. Maybe she thinks you should concentrate on school at this moment, or whatever - well, never mind, do what YOU want to do. It is your life, your time.

Besides, remember that even if you were the most promising pianist of your time, there would still be people saying that you are not very good or even mediocre. It happens to everyone.

[anamnesis]

(continuation of prior post)
thinks that because she cannot play at a level equivalent to 16-18 year olds (who are in the pre-college division at Juilliard) that it is time for her to hang up her spurs and try something else.

I advised her to find a good Taubman teacher in her city, and (this speaks volumes about her teacher) she had never heard of Dorothy Taubman.

So, to review, we have an obviously very intelligent young lady, who has not finally matured physically in terms of musco-skeletal development, telling us to advise her on how to take a different path because, at the age of 15, SHE IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!

Others have already stated that it was unnecessary to reveal personal information. 

Taubman isn't the only game in town.  There are many traditions of piano with a lot to offer, and sometimes you just have to find the one that works for you.

Taubman has a lot to offer, but I can see it hurting certain types of students as well.

I've worked with a Taubman teacher before, watched the videos, and read a thesis on it yet, yet it has far less influence on my pianistic life compared to other approaches. 

Abby Whiteside's supposed mess of a confusing book has had far more influence on my technique and musical approach than all of the Taubman material I've digested put together. 

[pianoplayer002]

Others have already stated that it was unnecessary to reveal personal information.  

Taubman isn't the only game in town.  There are many traditions of piano with a lot to offer, and sometimes you just have to find the one that works for you.

Taubman has a lot to offer, but I can see it hurting certain types of students as well.

I've worked with a Taubman teacher before, watched the videos, and read a thesis on it yet, yet it has far less influence on my pianistic life compared to other approaches.  

Abby Whiteside's supposed mess of a confusing book has had far more influence on my technique and musical approach than all of the Taubman material I've digested put together.  

Whiteside can be quite dangerous if you misunderstand her approach, trying to fix your technique on your own. I had to do the complete opposite from what she preaches in order to start achieving suppleness and ease.

But it's the same thing with the supposedly dangerous old "finger" school (not hanon, but Cortot, or Czerny, or finger technique as taught by Couperin for example). Only by misunderstanding it or implementing playing "with your fingers" incorrectly does it generate problems.

I cannot fault Taubman because they have saved many pianist's careers. But if you misunderstand the method or get stuck in the dogma you might end up severly limiting yourself.

Basically if you are tense, fatigued or ínjuried, you are doing something wrong.

[louispodesta]

You are 15? Well, then I would not bother at all about "not being good enough for your age". That is, if you want to become a professional, you have ALL the chances. Never mind that progidy myth, it is just this - a myth, kept alive by those who want to protect their own interest. You can be and become everything you want. Period. Never let any idiot tell you anything else.

I think it is very encouraging and exciting to have more than teacher. This past summer I spent a week at Chetham's piano summer school in Manchester, UK, and it was unbelievably nice. I am not an upcoming young concert pianist star, I am 48 and just a happy amateur who plays for pleasure and I'm not very advanced either. The mixture of students at the piano school was most stimulating. The youngest were 9 or so, the oldest close to 80. The faculty consisted of renowned piano stars like Noriko Ogawa and Leslie Howard, and all they asked from you was to love the piano. I met people who were planning for their next CD release and I met a girl who had just been playing for 6 months, and everything inbetween. So I just enjoyed the atmosphere and learned A LOT, of course. And of course I will go back ... I have also enrolled for another piano summer school here in my home country this summer.

And here, back home, I have my own teacher who I met 2 years ago. We get along very well and she is constantly encouraging me and thinks it is very exciting that I do this other stuff in parallel to her lessons. I also know a concert pianist who is willing to give me a few lessons. And this is not because I think I will become the next Argerich next year, but because I like to play the piano. 

I think you should happily continue with your lessons with your regular teacher, and also most happily add other courses and lessons with other teachers if you like. Nobody has the right to tell you that you are not "good enough", or what your skill level "ought to be" right now. Why your teacher is not encouraging you right now, I don't know. Maybe she thinks you should concentrate on school at this moment, or whatever - well, never mind, do what YOU want to do. It is your life, your time.

Besides, remember that even if you were the most promising pianist of your time, there would still be people saying that you are not very good or even mediocre. It happens to everyone.

Very, very well said.

Piano conservatories, just like the Sorbonne regarding the study of language, espouse a lofty belief.  And, the way you promote a belief is to create a great story in order to promote it.  This is commonly known as myth.

My coach is Thomas Mark, who used to be a Taubman practice coach.  However, since becoming a certified Alexander Technique coach, he has taken piano technique to the next level with his book "What Every Pianist Needs To Know About The Body."(www.pianomap.com).

The resultant associated with this is that everyone has ten fingers and the associated upper arm musculature.  Accordingly, everybody (physiologically) plays the piano the same way.

Finally, in regards the OP, I am a classical pianist/philosopher.  As such, I am a social activist philosopher.

Therefore, mission is accomplished, OP!  "It is your life, your time."

[anamnesis]

Whiteside can be quite dangerous if you misunderstand her approach, trying to fix your technique on your own. I had to do the complete opposite from what she preaches in order to start achieving suppleness and ease.

But it's the same thing with the supposedly dangerous old "finger" school (not hanon, but Cortot, or Czerny, or finger technique as taught by Couperin for example). Only by misunderstanding it or implementing playing "with your fingers" incorrectly does it generate problems.

I cannot fault Taubman because they have saved many pianist's careers. But if you misunderstand the method or get stuck in the dogma you might end up severly limiting yourself.

Basically if you are tense, fatigued or ínjuried, you are doing something wrong.

And that's why I said you have to find the approach that works best for you.  

(And the reality with Whiteside, is that the physical aspects of her approach are quite secondary to the musical aspects.  If you take a Schenkerian approach to music from the get-go, it makes a whole lot more sense.  Her approach is essentially the physical counterpart to the larger structural ideas that Schenker promoted.

Oddly enough, I never found a contradiction with her approach to fingers, and more modern fingers approaches such as Fraser's.
)

[anamnesis]

Very, very well said.

Piano conservatories, just like the Sorbonne regarding the study of language, espouse a lofty belief.  And, the way you promote a belief is to create a great story in order to promote it.  This is commonly known as myth.

My coach is Thomas Mark, who used to be a Taubman practice coach.  However, since becoming a certified Alexander Technique coach, he has taken piano technique to the next level with his book "What Every Pianist Needs To Know About The Body."(www.pianomap.com).

The resultant associated with this is that everyone has ten fingers and the associated upper arm musculature.  Accordingly, everybody (physiologically) plays the piano the same way.

Finally, in regards the OP, I am a classical pianist/philosopher.  As such, I am a social activist philosopher.

Therefore, mission is accomplished, OP!  "It is your life, your time."

Everyone essentially has the same underlying anatomy, but there are enough variations, that one has to adapt.

And although everyone essentially has the same anatomy (although not quite), not everyone understands music the same way, and how you understand the music directly influences your physical approach.

[pianoplayer002]

And that's why I said you have to find the approach that works best for you.  

(And the reality with Whiteside, is that the physical aspects of her approach are quite secondary to the musical aspects.  If you take a Schenkerian approach to music from the get-go, it makes a whole lot more sense.  Her approach is essentially the physical counterpart to the larger structural ideas that Schenker promoted.

Oddly enough, I never found a contradiction with her approach to fingers, and more modern fingers approaches such as Fraser's.
)

All she says about "basic rhythm" is fine. It's more her "continuous pull of the upper arm" that I take issue with. Regardless of what she means, if you actually do that you will become very tense in all of your lower arm trying to hold on to the keys. I have to completely disengage everything above the finger tips, and keep it completely passive, and not think about it at all (except ensuring I allow it to be supple/free and follow the fingers where they want to go). All her talk about levers never did me any good either. I have to think where I want the finger tips to go and allow everything behind them to react to that, rather than thinking my upper body is a fulcrum and the upper arm being a lever pivoting from that and so on.

[anamnesis]

All she says about "basic rhythm" is fine. It's more her "continuous pull of the upper arm" that I take issue with. Regardless of what she means, if you actually do that you will become very tense in all of your lower arm trying to hold on to the keys. I have to completely disengage everything above the finger tips, and keep it completely passive, and not think about it at all (except ensuring I allow it to be supple/free and follow the fingers where they want to go). All her talk about levers never did me any good either. I have to think where I want the finger tips to go and allow everything behind them to react to that, rather than thinking my upper body is a fulcrum and the upper arm being a lever pivoting from that and so on.

If you reinterpret the continuous "pull" as proprioception/kinesthesia it works a lot better. It's an extremely subtle sensation, and you can refine a lot of control here.  It's the difference between "hand writers" and shoulder writers:

https://www.paperpenalia.com/handwriting.html  

Also she simplified the actual anatomy when talking about the upper arm.  It really involves the entire back/upper arm/shoulder girdle. So if you ever read her again, it's best to read upper arm in that context.  

She never said anything about passive fingers. In fact, she even mentioned them having to be active.  It's just that you don't "reach" with them and take the entirety of the key drop with them with the body behind it.  You also don't control the larger phrase structure with them. There's a certain finger action that works very well with her pedagogy that involves using the intrinsic muscles in your hand. And any mentions of fingers she has in her book is quite compatible with it.

Her real concern with the fingers was a note-by-note listening.  For example, Op 10 No 2, one of the real difficulties limiting speed is listening to the chromatics, one by one in your head.  

[j_menz]

Very, very well said.

Piano conservatories, just like the Sorbonne regarding the study of language, espouse a lofty belief.  And, the way you promote a belief is to create a great story in order to promote it.  This is commonly known as myth.

My coach is Thomas Mark, who used to be a Taubman practice coach.  However, since becoming a certified Alexander Technique coach, he has taken piano technique to the next level with his book "What Every Pianist Needs To Know About The Body."(www.pianomap.com).

The resultant associated with this is that everyone has ten fingers and the associated upper arm musculature.  Accordingly, everybody (physiologically) plays the piano the same way.

Finally, in regards the OP, I am a classical pianist/philosopher.  As such, I am a social activist philosopher.

Therefore, mission is accomplished, OP!  "It is your life, your time."

I really haven't a clue what you're attempting to say. This is a string of paragraphs that appear completely unrelated either to each other or to anything else in this thread.

If you have a point, make it. If you don't, then kindly stop littering.

[pianoplayer002]

If you reinterpret the continuous "pull" as proprioception/kinesthesia it works a lot better. It's an extremely subtle sensation, and you can refine a lot of control here.  It's the difference between "hand writers" and shoulder writers:

https://www.paperpenalia.com/handwriting.html  

So that's basically what I call "allowing everything to follow the finger tip where it wants to go". If everything is kept truly supple, and the row of knuckles is kept horizontal, everything else will automatically reposition itself as needed. Still no idea why she calls it "pull" though, to me that implies something going backwards, away from the piano. Maybe a better description would be "a flow going down the arm and into the finger tips"?

She never said anything about passive fingers.

Neither did I

In fact, she even mentioned them having to be active.  It's just that you don't "reach" with them and take the entirety of the key drop with them with the body behind it.  

Not sure what you are saying here, but I understand the rest of your reasoning. In finger playing, only the finger "takes the keydrop" (another of Whiteside's somewhat vague wordings if I remember?). It's when you press notes down with your hand or arm instead of your finger while trying to play fast that you get tense. In chord playing, the arm might follow, but it's always the finger that leads, the fingers still move independently of the arm.

[anamnesis]

So that's basically what I call "allowing everything to follow the finger tip where it wants to go". If everything is kept truly supple, and the row of knuckles is kept horizontal, everything else will automatically reposition itself as needed. Still no idea why she calls it "pull" though, to me that implies something going backwards, away from the piano. Maybe a better description would be "a flow going down the arm and into the finger tips"?

Usually when she says pull,  it refers to any combination of actions that ultimate have the arm being drawn toward the body rather than away.  If you have any weight-lifting experience, it's essentially the class of "rowing" movements.  There's a reason why, usually when she says upper arm, she really means back/upper arm/shoulder girdle.  The pulling sensation she is talking about?  I feel it as a very subtle sensation in my lats that directs the larger phrase structure.  I reliably feel it every time, and my ability to control leaps is increased.  Pieces like La Campanella now have a much more reliable control.  

Whiteside according to one blog I read, made all her students learn this piece:

The technique required to play this is something you need to feel at all times.  There's no tensing up involved, just refined sensory-motor control using proprioception at the back/shoulder girdle/upper arm.  
 

Not sure what you are saying here, but I understand the rest of your reasoning. In finger playing, only the finger "takes the keydrop" (another of Whiteside's somewhat vague wordings if I remember?).
 It's when you press notes down with your hand or arm instead of your finger while trying to play fast that you get tense. In chord playing, the arm might follow, but it's always the finger that leads, the fingers still move independently of the arm.

I really meant two separate ideas.

The first on reaching with the fingers, which just refers to key accuracy. Most of your precision should be from the shoulder/back complex. Again, you can get extremely fine control at this level if you actually work on it. You don't just reserve it for leaps. You are aiming from the center toward the periphery, and it usually leads to a better overall coordination rather than aiming only from the fingers and then compensating with the rest of your body somehow.   You can still "direct" with the finger tips you want, but it's still center to the periphery with higher level propriocetion being your guide. 

The second wasn't about directing where you play.  Key drop refers to being aware of balance on the "escapement mechanism"/sounding spot on the keys.  

[pianoplayer002]

Usually when she says pull,  it refers to any combination of actions that ultimate have the arm being drawn toward the body rather than away.  If you have any weight-lifting experience, it's essentially the class of "rowing" movements.  There's a reason why, usually when she says upper arm, she really means back/upper arm/shoulder girdle. 

Yes, that's how I understood it too, but I had to completely abandon it in favor of a completely finger based approach.

I don't think Whiteside was wrong, because she clearly helped a lot of students and kept at her methodology her entire life, I just think she didn't get it accross very well in writing, and that it is easy to misunderstand. If you think about it, any method that when properly understood results in a supple, healthy technique, is essentially teaching the same coordination, regardless if it's called "finger school" or "arm weight" or "Whiteside" or "Taubman". Because at it's most fundamental level proper piano technique is simply moving the keys with your finger tips while keeping everything else completely supple. Personally weight or arm based approaches have never worked for me. I have to think periphery to center, with the periphery leading, and everything else following in harmony with that.

[anamnesis]

Yes, that's how I understood it too, but I had to completely abandon it in favor of a completely finger based approach.

I don't think Whiteside was wrong, because she clearly helped a lot of students and kept at her methodology her entire life, I just think she didn't get it accross very well in writing, and that it is easy to misunderstand. If you think about it, any method that when properly understood results in a supple, healthy technique, is essentially teaching the same coordination, regardless if it's called "finger school" or "arm weight" or "Whiteside" or "Taubman". Because at it's most fundamental level proper piano technique is simply moving the keys with your finger tips while keeping everything else completely supple. Personally weight or arm based approaches have never worked for me.

That's true.  You have to find the physical approach that makes up for what one is individually lacking. 

But the real point I was trying to make was this.

The real strength in Whiteside's approach is only tangentially related to her physical technique approach.  It's really that her solution to the degree of freedom problem and motor learning:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrees_of_freedom_problem

is intimately connected with the larger structure of the music itself (and it's interpretation). 

Her approach really only comes alive if you actively use outlining as one of your primary motor learning tools, and not just some throwaway tool that you use occasionally.   

It's also helpful to understand the pedagogy of her student Robert Helps (who really believed in the outlining approach). I saw an interesting abstract:

The Gracious Rhythm of the Body: Chopin, Whiteside, and Expressive Timing Daniel B. Stevens, University of Delaware
How do musicians’ bodies influence the expressive timing of a performance? Building on studies by Rothstein, Pierce, and Hatten, this paper uses the pedagogical principles of Chopin and pianist Abby Whiteside to develop a theory of expressive timing that takes into account what Whiteside called “the gracious and sensitive rhythm in the body.” Whiteside’s method, developed through her study of Chopin’s etudes, explains how to use the body to coordinate physical gestures of different time spans. It also provides a basis for understanding how the body influences expressive timing and how temporal shaping results from a confluence of layered expressive gestures. Thinking of expressive timing as a composite of different gestural layers allows musicians to conceive expressive effects like rubato in a nuanced manner, rather than as a simple push or pull of tempo. Expressive timing can also convey additional shades of meaning, since the physical gestures that shape time may work together or against one another in various ways. This paper considers performances by Whiteside protégé Robert Helps of 11 Chopin’s nouvelle étude in A-flat major and Godowsky’s first study of this etude to explore this generative quality of physical gestures in compositions and their expression.

https://societymusictheory.org/sites/default/files/34th_Annual_Meeting_SMT_%282011%29_abstracts.pdf

The talk I cited above talks about Helps' performance of the 45th Godowsky-Chopin study.  

https://www.musanim.com/pdf/GodowskyChopinEtude45.pdf
https://picosong.com/4NYL

[chopincat]

That is, if you want to become a professional, you have ALL the chances...You can be and become everything you want. Period. Never let any idiot tell you anything else.

Thank you for the kind advice and encouragement! And please don't take what I'm about to say personally. It's just that as an American kid growing up with pretty relaxed parents, this is what I've been hearing practically since birth. And it's started to upset me a lot, because it's just not true. If you're not that good of a writer, you can't become a prize-winning author. If you're not that good of a good singer/actor, you can't be on Broadway. If you're not that good of an athlete, you can't win the Olympics. It's true that you can get really far with something if you're passionate about. But I've learned the hard way that loving something and working hard at it doesn't ensure that you'll be successful at it. I hate to be a debbie downer, but teaching kids that they can achieve absolutely anything just sets them up for disappointment. I kind of feel like I've been lied to by my parents and other adults in my life who say this, and I wish they hadn't burned it into my brain that success would be that easy, because it just isn't!

I really haven't a clue what you're attempting to say. This is a string of paragraphs that appear completely unrelated either to each other or to anything else in this thread.

Agreed. "Mission accomplished"? What??


Also, I figure I should give an update on where things are at. I had the talk with my teacher that some of us been talking about, and it went really well! I guess she really didn't realize before how passionate I am about music, but now she definitely does. She told me basically verbatim that she thinks that it's wonderful that I've found a passion, and that I should pursue it and take it wherever it leads me. She's already started recommending some classes and camps and other things I can do outside of her lessons. I'm really glad that I had this talk with her, and I just want to thank everyone so much who encouraged me to do so, because it was really helpful. The rest of you can stop telling me that she doesn't care about me!

[bronnestam]

Thank you for the kind advice and encouragement! And please don't take what I'm about to say personally. It's just that as an American kid growing up with pretty relaxed parents, this is what I've been hearing practically since birth. And it's started to upset me a lot, because it's just not true. If you're not that good of a writer, you can't become a prize-winning author. If you're not that good of a good singer/actor, you can't be on Broadway. If you're not that good of an athlete, you can't win the Olympics. It's true that you can get really far with something if you're passionate about. But I've learned the hard way that loving something and working hard at it doesn't ensure that you'll be successful at it. I hate to be a debbie downer, but teaching kids that they can achieve absolutely anything just sets them up for disappointment. I kind of feel like I've been lied to by my parents and other adults in my life who say this, and I wish they hadn't burned it into my brain that success would be that easy, because it just isn't!

You just said it yourself - yes, YOU CAN become everything you want, BUT ... it is not easy. I am 100% sure in this aspect. You can, but are you willing to pay the prize? Do you have enough patience and energy, are you willing to make the necessary sacrifices?
One other thing: I don't encourage goals of the kind "becoming No. 1 in the league" or "win this, win that". That is a goal that has to do with outer approval and with comparison to others. And therefore it is never a real goal. So, instead of wanting to become "the best" in a certain genre, you should rather have the goal of reaching some inner standards that are not dependent of how good other people are.

I don't think anyone should be afraid of dreaming, and of dreaming BIG. But then you should just simply go on with the next step, see where the path leads you next, and just let it happen. Don't be afraid of following your heart. Don't listen to people telling you to be "realistic". Realistic in the aspect of knowing what you must do in order to get somewhere - yes. Realistic in the aspect of setting limitations for yourself because you think you are not good enough right now - no, no, no.

And please do not fall into the oh so common trap of thinking that only fast beginners are talents. There are sooooo many talents wasted in this world, both in sports and in arts like music, because they are slow beginners who mature rather late, and therefore they are early told that they are not good enough. There are also a lot of progidies who seem to aim for the stars at the age of 10, but at the age of 20 they have faded away. They got tired of it. They reached their limit early and could not cope with the sudden obstacles that appeared.

No, the only true measurement here is within yourself. If you love what you do, you are on the right track. Just keep on doing what you love to do and let it all develop over time.

[louispodesta]

You just said it yourself - yes, YOU CAN become everything you want, BUT ... it is not easy. I am 100% sure in this aspect. You can, but are you willing to pay the prize? Do you have enough patience and energy, are you willing to make the necessary sacrifices?
One other thing: I don't encourage goals of the kind "becoming No. 1 in the league" or "win this, win that". That is a goal that has to do with outer approval and with comparison to others. And therefore it is never a real goal. So, instead of wanting to become "the best" in a certain genre, you should rather have the goal of reaching some inner standards that are not dependent of how good other people are.

I don't think anyone should be afraid of dreaming, and of dreaming BIG. But then you should just simply go on with the next step, see where the path leads you next, and just let it happen. Don't be afraid of following your heart. Don't listen to people telling you to be "realistic". Realistic in the aspect of knowing what you must do in order to get somewhere - yes. Realistic in the aspect of setting limitations for yourself because you think you are not good enough right now - no, no, no.

And please do not fall into the oh so common trap of thinking that only fast beginners are talents. There are sooooo many talents wasted in this world, both in sports and in arts like music, because they are slow beginners who mature rather late, and therefore they are early told that they are not good enough. There are also a lot of progidies who seem to aim for the stars at the age of 10, but at the age of 20 they have faded away. They got tired of it. They reached their limit early and could not cope with the sudden obstacles that appeared.

No, the only true measurement here is within yourself. If you love what you do, you are on the right track. Just keep on doing what you love to do and let it all develop over time.

Once again, as a start, I recommend Thomas Mark.  Next, you do what they do at Juilliard, and then you get with a Taubman teacher, as a start.

So, I want anyone to say, in this specific case:  do not engage a Taubman teacher.  The OP does not need a psychoanalyst, she needs a real piano teacher!

[chopincat]

The OP does not need a psychoanalyst, she needs a real piano teacher!

Have you been listening to me at all?? I have a real piano teacher, and my problem was completely fixed with the help of analysis (though of course I wouldn't call it psychoanalysis) from other people on this forum (not you).

[verqueue]

Some Taubman method believers are like Jehovahs. They believe only Tabuman teachers are real teachers and they write about it everywhere.

[j_menz]

Jehovahs.

I believe that's a word one pluralises at one's peril. 

[hardy_practice]

Some Taubman method believers are like Jehovahs. They believe only Tabuman teachers are real teachers and they write about it everywhere.

At least they don't knock on your door! (yet)