Can you help me?

[Riccardo]

Hello! This is my first post and I think I have to introduce myself. I'm italian, and I don't know english very well, so forgive me if I make some mistakes. I'm 21, and I studied piano in a music school for some years. I took 2 examinations in a conservatory ( theory/solfeggio and the 5th year examination). I haven't been studying piano for a year. Soon I am starting to take lessons again.Now my technic is not good. In an effort to improve it some time ago I took out my old HANON! After a week I caught a tendonitis. After reading Chang's book "The fundamentals of piano practice" and some Bernhard's advices in this forum, I am sure that my method of study (or study method?) is completely wrong. I usually started playing slowly, without memorizing, with the metronome, increasing the speed, etc... My teacher doesn't know the "new" methods, and trying thems by myself is not very easy. I need help! Can you say me how to start with this methods?
I think I have also concentration problems. I have difficulties in concentrating in what I'm playing ( movements, tone, dynamics, etc...), perhaps because I usually studied without concentration! For the next exam I must prepare:
-23 Clementi's studies
-24 preludi and 24 fughe from the well-tempered clavier
-3 Scarlatti's sonatas
-a Beethoven's sonata
-a romantic piece
-a post-romantic piece
-scales in double thirds and sixths
-sight reading
Luckily there is not a precise time limit! Now, how  can I start to study all this stuff? How can I organize my study? How can I concentrate? What can I do in a study session? Can you help me?

[MrRonsMusic]

Personally speaking, if you do not plan to pursue a Concert Pianist career... I would only play music that you enjoy! 

Based on the issues you've provided, it appears that you are not spiritually engaged with the music. 

Try some other genre... (style)

Mr. Ron
https://www.mrronsmusic.com

[Riccardo]

What do you mean by "spiritually engaged", Mr.Ron?
In order to have a qualification I must take this exam and I cannot play only pieces that I enjoy.

[bernhard]

I agree with Mr. Ron. It is pretty much impossible to learn a piece that one does not love. Being compelled to play a number of pieces for the sole purpose of satisfying an examination can be a good methodology for soul-destruction.

If you do decide to go ahead with this examination, then your first and most important step is to select the pieces you intend to play. Take your time and do not worry about difficulty. Your only criteria should be that you love so much the piece that you are prepared to do whatever work it takes to master it.

Now in regards to the list you provided, I believe you must choose one of the 23 Clementi studies and one of the 24 preludes & fugues from the WTC, not all of them. Is that correct? 

So, choose the pieces you want to study, and then come back (the more specific your question, the more helpful the answers will be).

For Scarlatti, have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2339.msg20064.html#msg20064
(list of favourite sonatas).

Scales are no big deal. Have a look here on how to deal with them:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2313.msg19807.html#msg19807
(Speed of scales – important factors in speed playing - alternative fingering for scales).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2533.msg21955.html#msg21955
(structured plan to learn scales and arpeggios – description of repeated note-groups and other tricks)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756
(unorthodox fingering for all major and minor scales plus an explanation)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2701.msg23134.html#msg23134
(Teaching scales – the cluster method and why one should start with B major).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2758.msg23889.html#msg23889
(scales & compositions – real importance of scales is to develop the concept of key, not exercise)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2920.msg25568.html#msg25568
(how to play superfast scales)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2983.msg26079.html#msg26079
(Best order to learn scales – what does it mean not to play scales outside pieces)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2998.msg26268.html#msg26268
(Scales HT, why? – why and when to practise scales HS and HT – Pragmatical  x logical way of teaching – technique and how to acquire it by solving technical problems – Hanon and why it should be avoided - Lemmings)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3499.msg31548.html#msg31548
(using scales as the basis for free improvisation)

Sight reading is also just a matter of consistent work over a few months. Follow Howard Richmann’s – Supersight reading secrets and you will get there. Also have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1871.msg14384.html#msg14384
(Reading notation – Richmann’s book – Cambridge word scramble example)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1976.msg15962.html#msg15962
(Sight reading – discussion on Richmann’s book)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2751.msg23710.html#msg23710
(explanation of the sight-reading process)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3205.msg28255.html#msg28255
(how not to look at the keys – Richmann’s reviews)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3334.msg29381.html#msg29381
(Reading both staffs as a single grand staff - Reasons for working on scales - Detailed discussion of Richmann’s book)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4461.msg41580.html#msg41580
(Looking at the keys: Good or bad? exercises to help finding notes by touch. Good contributions by Chang).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5090.msg48850.html#msg48850
(the score is tabs for piano)

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[faulty_damper]

Hello and welcome to this forum, Riccardo!

No need to apologize for your English as it is very understandable.  My only advice is to follow Bernhard's advice as it is good.

I want to mention that I got a chuckle when I read this:
"In an effort to improve it some time ago I took out my old HANON! After a week I caught a tendonitis."

In fact, I am still laughing, but not because I am sadistic for your condition but because of what experienced musicians and teachers know that that is what you could get by practicing Hanon with Hanon's prescribed technique.

So my next advice is to stop using Hanon as a way to gain technique but to practice Hanon because you absolutely love the music.  I am joking. hehe

[Riccardo]

Thanks Bernhard, I will read your writings. But I would specify that I have to do ALL Clementi's studies and ALL 24 Bach's preludi e fughe (12 from the first and 12 from the second volume). An other option is to attend to a 3 years university cours with less Clementi studies but with other subjects. Anyway, I must play fixed pieces. Unfortunately, music instruction in Italy is that!

[Riccardo]

I want to mention that I got a chuckle when I read this:
"In an effort to improve it some time ago I took out my old HANON! After a week I caught a tendonitis."

In fact, I am still laughing, but not because I am sadistic for your condition but because of what experienced musicians and teachers know that that is what you could get by practicing Hanon with Hanon's prescribed technique.

I think that I won't study Hanon any more!

[bernhard]

Thanks Bernhard, I will read your writings. But I would specify that I have to do ALL Clementi's studies and ALL 24 Bach's preludi e fughe (12 from the first and 12 from the second volume). An other option is to attend to a 3 years university cours with less Clementi studies but with other subjects. Anyway, I must play fixed pieces. Unfortunately, music instruction in Italy is that!

This is a tall order!    (the Clementi is no big deal – just studies), but the complete book II of WTC?  You are in for a good ride.

I suggest you learn them in the following order (just a suggestion other people may have different orders – If so I would like to know):

1. no. 15 in  G (Book II)
2. no. 20 in Am (Book II)
3. no. 21 in Bb (Book II)
4. no. 6 in Dm (Book II)
5. no. 19 in A (Book II)
6. no. 11 in F (Book II)
7. no. 2 in Cm (Book II)
8. no. 14 in F#m (Book II)
9. no. 7 in Eb (Book II)
10. no. 13 in F# (Book II)
11. no. 12 in Fm (Book II)
12. no. 1 in C (Book II)
13. no. 24 in Bm (Book II)
14. no. 10 in Em (Book II)
15. no. 5 in D (Book II)
16. no. 18 in G#m (Book II)
17. no. 9 in E (Book II)
18. no. 4 in C#m (Book II)
19. no. 3 in C# (Book II)
20. no. 8 in D#m (Book II)
21. no. 17 in Ab (Book II)
22. no. 22 in Bbm (Book II)
23. no. 16 in Gm (Book II)
24. no. 23 in B (Book II)

You may also want to go through these books:

Basic:

Eric Astschuller – Bachanalia – The essential listener’s guide to Bach’s Well tempered clavier (Little Brown)

Intermediate:

Ralph Kirkpatrick – Interpreting Bach’s Well-tempered clavier (Yale University Press).

Advanced:

Paul Badura-Skoda – Interpreting Bach at the keyboard (Oxford University Press)

Siglind Bruhn – JS Bach’s Well tempered clavier: In depth analysis and interpretation (4 volumes) (Mainer International Ltd)

You can read this book online here:
 
https://www-personal.umich.edu/~siglind/text.htm

and this is an excellent site on the WTC:

https://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/wtc.html

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Riccardo]

Perhaps I didn't express myself well: 12 preludes and fugues from the first book and 12 preludes and fugues from the 2nd book.

[Daniel_piano]

Yeah, as I've said before in previous posts the Italian musical education system is strange and probably the tougher one, and now it is becoming even stranger
English system is far better as you can choose between a good list of different pieces where there's always something musical and you can always find something that you like, and can decide to study with your preferred teacher and even just get an examination for your diploma without needing to necessarily attend a dry accademy, with dry musical programs, dry teachers and with a very close allowed number of students (very hard audition)
There are some examinations in Italy where none of the more than 20 pieces to prepare for the exam are musical, sometimes they're ALL technical studies

I still think the ABSRM and Diploma system in UK is far more better than the poor Italian one

Daniel

[dmk]

I agree with you Daniel, the Italian system is pretty rough, but there are some problems with the English Examination system in this regard:

1/  You can get to grade 8 and pass a Diploma without ever having played any Bach at all!!!  For me (and feel free to disagree) I think it is a travesty that someone could have all these 'qualifications' (for diplomas) without being able to play a prelude and fugue.  Maybe thats why I am such a nasty teacher and make all my students play a prelude and fugue even if it is not the easiest piece on the list.  Either they have to play it for the exam or they have to learn one to my satisfaction before they are entered for it.

2/ Sometimes the lists are too broad with pieces of such varying difficulty its ridiculous.  For example, on the AMEB (an Australian Boards) Associate Diploma syllabus for List C you could play Tschiakovsky's October from The Seasons (an easy piece in my opinion) or harder works such as Brahms' op79 n2 Rhapsody in G minor and Liszt Sonetto 123 del Petrarca....!!  This is even worse when you look at the very broad syllabus for the DipABRSM at least the Trinity Syllabus is slighty more restrictive in its choice of works.

I am not saying that you shouldn't play works you should enjoy I am not an advocate of the school of thought where the only pieces you learn are your exam ones IMO thats just crap...

Its just that if you are going to hold a certain qualification with which a level of prestige is attached i feel that there are certain basic competencies which people need to have.  I know I am harping on this but people (for example) in Australia often think they are ready to start teaching one they reach Grade 8.  Such a person may never have played any Bach or a movement of a Beethoven sonata, especially if there teacher is of the lets only learn exam pieces school of thought.

Would you really want someone like this teaching you or your children?  At least under the Italian method there are certain basic competencies which people have reached....here parents employ someone to teach their children ("because they hav reached Grade eight so they must be good") and there no telling what they can and can't do!!!!

....penny for your thoughts anyone

[Daniel_piano]

I agree with you Daniel, the Italian system is pretty rough, but there are some problems with the English Examination system in this regard:

1/  You can get to grade 8 and pass a Diploma without ever having played any Bach at all!!!  For me (and feel free to disagree) I think it is a travesty that someone could have all these 'qualifications' (for diplomas) without being able to play a prelude and fugue.  Maybe thats why I am such a nasty teacher and make all my students play a prelude and fugue even if it is not the easiest piece on the list.  Either they have to play it for the exam or they have to learn one to my satisfaction before they are entered for it.

But, correct me if I'm wrong
Isn't passing the grade 8 just the tip of the iceberg?
I understand you can reach grade 8 without knowing a fugue or a prelude but it seemed to me that to get the Diploma (the so called 9,10 and 11 grade) you must a whole knowledge in all piano style composition and also in theory
For what I understood grade 1 to grade 8 just covert the early intermediate repetoire and few basis of theory
But when you start a Diploma course after the 8 grade things become more "serious" harmony and theory becomes more detailed and virtuoso piece as well as contrappunctual styles are taught

How does it work specifically?

Daniel

[dmk]

Your right Daniel, in terms of reperatory grade 8 is the tip of the iceberg.  I am unfortunately referring to social preconceptions (and IMO misconceptions that Grade 8 entitles you to teach).

After Grade 8 the diploma system starts in the following order (this is generalisation but)....

1/ Associate Diploma
2/ Licentiate Diploma
3/ Fellowship Diploma

There is generally no requirement to play anything except to present a balanced program.  This will require a sonata of some sort a Beethoven, Haydn, Mozart, Clementi or Schubert  BUT these days I know of many people who have presented Associate and Licentiate programs without a contrapunctal Baroque work and without a classical sonata and passed.

Maybe I am just a soft hearted traditionalist BUT at least at Associate level I feel that a program along the lines of:
a/ Baroque work
b/ Classical Sonata
c/ Romantic work
d/ Contemporary work

After this i can appreciate an increased specialisation in styles if that is your desire...i guess.
Have a look at the ABRSM repertoire list here https://www.abrsm.org/resources/perfDip05Part2.pdf

Associate level is very much your early advanced pieces, your big sonatas and advanced works haven't yet come into play.

Also most examination institutions require you to have only up to grade 5 theory for their Associate Diploma (Trinity has NO requirement for theory at ATCL level but at LTCL level you need to have done you Associate level theory which is post Grade . 

Grade 5 theory is very much the tip of the iceberg with regards to harmony and counterpoint....
ABRSM grade 5 theory
https://www.abrsm.org/?page=exams/gradedMusicExams/theory.html#8

TCL grade 5 theory https://www.trinitycollege.co.uk/_downloads/music/syllabuses/WrittenExamsGrades.pdf

I would love to have posted some of the Australian Boards as examples but none of these boards have syllabus's online....

Are examination boards just dumbing and watering down 'qualifications' to make them more marketable?  Any other thoughts on the English colonial system???

[bernhard]

Perhaps I didn't express myself well: 12 preludes and fugues from the first book and 12 preludes and fugues from the 2nd book.

No, you expressed yourself perfectly well, I just read your post in  hurry, my fault, I apologise . Here is the list of the 48 in the order I would teach them (so that each one prepares for the next):

1. no. 15 in  G (Book II)
2. no. 6 in Dm
3. no. 21 in Bb
4. no. 10 in Em
5. no. 20 in Am (Book II)
6. no. 11 in F
7. no. 2 in Cm
8. no. 9 in E
9. no. 13 in F#
10. no. 21 in Bb (Book II)
11. no. 6 in Dm (Book II)
12. no. 19 in A (Book II)
13. no. 11 in F (Book II)
14. no. 19 in A
15. no. 14 in F#m
16. no. 18 in G#m
17 no. 2 in Cm (Book II)
18. no. 5 in D
19. no. 7 in Eb
20. no. 14 in F#m (Book II)
21. no. 7 in Eb (Book II)
22. no. 1 in C
23. no. 17 in Ab
24. no. 13 in F# (Book II)
25. no. 15 in G
26. no. 12 in Fm (Book II)
27. no. 1 in C (Book II)
28. no. 24 in Bm (Book II)
29. no. 10 in Em (Book II)
30. no. 16 in Gm
31. no. 5 in D (Book II)
32. no. 18 in G#m (Book II)
33. no. 24 in Bm
34. no. 9 in E (Book II)
35. no. 4 in C#m (Book II)
36. no. 23 in B
37. no. 3 in C# (Book II)
38. no. 12 in Fm
39. no. 3 in C#
40. no. 8 in D#m (Book II)
41. no. 22 in Bbm
42. no. 17 in Ab (Book II)
43. no 4 in C#m
44. no. 8 in D#m
45. no. 20 in Am
46. no. 22 in Bbm (Book II)
47. no. 16 in Gm (Book II)
48. no. 23 in B (Book II)

(This order is personal – difficulty is always personal – and subjective, and I would love to hear of alternative orderings).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Riccardo]

Thank you for the list, Bernhard.
Do you have, by chance, an order for the Clementi's studies too? They are from
"Gradus ad Parnassum" : 2,5,9,14,15,16,17,21,26,30,32,36,44,47,58,63,65,78,86,87,88,95,96. 

[peter_g_moll]

Dear Riccardo,

This exchange of message has been most interesting.  I am fascinated (but also horrified!) that you are required to do as many as 23 of Clementi's studies.  But I think it's excellent to do a lot of Bach.  Notably the scholar Bela Siki in his well-known book on professional performance repertoire insists that any professional worth the name must do at least a dozen of the Bach Preludes and Fugues.

Now it would be very interesting for several members of the Piano Forum if you could take the trouble, as Daniel_piano kindly did for another Italian institution, to post the complete list of what's required in your examination system, year by year.  There has been quite a lot of discussion on this Board about it -- see

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3472.0.html

We'd be most grateful.

Regards,


Peter

[Riccardo]

Perhaps I won't take the examination. Forgive me if I made you waste your time. Thanks  for your help.

[mound]

In order to have a qualification I must take this exam and I cannot play only pieces that I enjoy.

Perhaps it's just my ignorance, ya know, simply being a dedicated student of the piano with a private teacher so that I might play music that I love to play,  but what point is served by struggling to play music you don't enjoy, simply so that you can have a "qualification" - what are we talking here? A diploma?  Not to totally dismiss the worth of conservatory students and the conservatories they are attending,  but the more I hear comments like that, the more I think music schools are a sham.

Oh, and Ricardo, I thought your English was excellent.

-Paul

[xvimbi]

Perhaps it's just my ignorance, ya know, simply being a dedicated student of the piano with a private teacher so that I might play music that I love to play,  but what point is served by struggling to play music you don't enjoy, simply so that you can have a "qualification" - what are we talking here? A diploma?  Not to totally dismiss the worth of conservatory students and the conservatories they are attending,  but the more I hear comments like that, the more I think music schools are a sham.

Being a musician is often like being a chef: Chefs often have to cook something that they would not eat themselves. Chefs often have to do chores that they don't like to do, but they may impart an important piece of knowledge that is necessary later for doing thing that they do like.

Musicians have to be able to demonstrate certain abilities, and they have to have certain pieces in their reprtoire, even if they hate them, because there is a paying audience that wants to hear them. You never know when that call comes: "Hey, Brendel is ill, can you play the Emperor tomorrow?".

[kaff]

Surely the main problem with the philosophy of only playing what you love, is that it provides no scope for allowing your taste to develop and grow?  Sure, you can listen to a lot of stuff and decide to play what you like listening to.  But I know I've found sometimes that I'll begin to learn a piece which doesn't appeal very much at the start, but which I grow to love after I've become familiar with all its nuances through playing it.  If y ou don't try a piece, how can you know you don't love it?

[bernhard]

Surely the main problem with the philosophy of only playing what you love, is that it provides no scope for allowing your taste to develop and grow?  Sure, you can listen to a lot of stuff and decide to play what you like listening to.  But I know I've found sometimes that I'll begin to learn a piece which doesn't appeal very much at the start, but which I grow to love after I've become familiar with all its nuances through playing it.  If y ou don't try a piece, how can you know you don't love it?

This is an attractive reasoning, but it has two problems: the size of the piano repertory, and a simple fact of human nature: we do not do what we do not like.

A lifetime will probably not be enough to learn solely the piano pieces one likes, so I for one do not wish to get sidetracked.

However, taste does expand. And we do not necessarily need to learn something we do not like to expand our tastes. In fact, being forced to learn something one does not like may have quite the opposite effect. A much more effective way in my opinion is simply to listen widely. You may not so much end up liking what you previoulsy disliked, but you amy discover things that you love and was just unaware of. (Right now I am very much interested in Alan Hovhaness - a composer I 've just recently come across).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.