Hungarian Rhapsody #2 - Steroid finger?

[bonesquirrel]

Hello, obviously this post is a little silly, but valid nonetheless.

My problem is that in a section of Liszt's 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody, I am confused in if I should use one finger repeatedly (Like I seen Valentina Lisitsa do) or alternate between many fingers quickly (Like I seen Adam Gyorgy do). Pretty simple, what one do you do/would you recommend. I have found some success with the 'steroid finger' technique, but if there was a better way to do it, Id like to be aware.

I shouldn't even have to do this but Im doing it anyway, the point I am referring to is where the black note is hit repeatedly, it begins at 05:40 of this video -

[verqueue]

It depends on your relaxation during repetitions with one finger with maintaining a proper pulse. If you can do this, then use one finger. If not, change fingers. Remember that when you play in public, the feeling of relaxation could be different and it can destroy your repetitions. I think changing fingers is more safe. It's a matter of your choice, abillities and knowledge about yourself, so I can't tell you which option you should use.

[thalbergmad]

Wise advice and i would add that if you play in public you would not have your own piano, so definately wise to play safe.

Thal

[faulty_damper]

It depends on the piano.  Fast, repeated notes quickly makes obvious the condition and quality of the action.  Not all pianos allow for fast, single-note, repeated response.  The material of the keys also makes an impact as certain keys have more friction than others which limits finger slip for alternating fingers.

[bonesquirrel]

There is a bit of frustration about this. Because the piano I practice on (at home) is either a not so good upright piano or an expensive electronically keyboard (weighted keys, obviously). In my case, the not so great upright piano seems to be better (not so much effort to make a louder sound) than the electronic one on full volume.

But the piano I would 'perform' on, is a pretty decent baby grand piano with magnificent touch (at my school, I want to show my music teacher).

So would it be a good idea to use the steroid finger thing in this case? Because if I get good at playing it like that on the not so good upright, wont it be extremely easy to transition to the baby grand.

[faulty_damper]

The best action I've ever played was a Kawai RX.  The action was faster and more responsive than a Fazioli F308, the largest Fazioli concert grand.  Even though I couldn't practice that fast on my own piano without skipping notes, I was immediately able to play at super speed on the new action.

I can't answer your question since only you know what kind of piano you'll be playing on, but I know from experience that I anticipate what I would be capable of doing on certain pianos and make decisions based on that knowledge.

Also, "steroid finger" is a really poor description since it doesn't require strength.  There's a specific alignment range that makes it possible for fast, repeated notes.  Get this alignment wrong and you will end up building lots of endurance and stamina to make it work.

[bonesquirrel]

Also, "steroid finger" is a really poor description since it doesn't require strength.

Cocaine finger?

[faulty_damper]

Cocaine finger?

I just recently learned that you are a beginner at this.  The problem is that you have a very specific idea of what playing the piano is supposed to be like.  You implicitly believe that playing difficult works should look difficult for the sake of making that impression.  You are greatly mistaken.  Playing the piano is the easiest thing in the world, like walking or talking, juggling and gymnastics.  It's not a matter of strength or speed - it only looks and sounds that way - but a matter of finesse and intelligence.  If you are trying to build strength and speed, you are doing it wrong.  If your muscles are sore and strained, you are doing it wrong.

Very few pianists can do fast, single-note repetitions with only one finger.  The reason is because they never figured out the alignment of the playing apparatus in the first place.  Most pianists who try such a feat quickly abandon it because of the amount of muscular tension that is induced by relying on old movement patterns.  And when they see someone who can do it with just one finger, they are in awe and make assumptions about how much they've practiced to strengthen those fingers and how long they've practiced to increase endurance... or they wrongfully assume that the pianist was born with that gift.

Regardless, I hope you don't turn out to become the next Comme le Vent of PF.  (Do a search of his posts to know what I mean.)

[bonesquirrel]

I just recently learned that you are a beginner at this.  The problem is that you have a very specific idea of what playing the piano is supposed to be like.  You implicitly believe that playing difficult works should look difficult for the sake of making that impression.  You are greatly mistaken.  Playing the piano is the easiest thing in the world, like walking or talking, juggling and gymnastics.  It's not a matter of strength or speed - it only looks and sounds that way - but a matter of finesse and intelligence.  If you are trying to build strength and speed, you are doing it wrong.  If your muscles are sore and strained, you are doing it wrong.

Very few pianists can do fast, single-note repetitions with only one finger.  The reason is because they never figured out the alignment of the playing apparatus in the first place.  Most pianists who try such a feat quickly abandon it because of the amount of muscular tension that is induced by relying on old movement patterns.  And when they see someone who can do it with just one finger, they are in awe and make assumptions about how much they've practiced to strengthen those fingers and how long they've practiced to increase endurance... or they wrongfully assume that the pianist was born with that gift.

Regardless, I hope you don't turn out to become the next Comme le Vent of PF.  (Do a search of his posts to know what I mean.)

Thankyou. An yes, my idea of playing the piano is playing the hardest piece I can possibly play. But I have already began learning music (myself) and scales and arpeggios (myself) aswell as some simple Bach and Schuman (myself). The problem is I cant afford a piano teacher and nobody in my family can play anything on piano but me, an nobody has ever shown me how to play a single note. I just worked it all out on my own because there was literally no way else I could possibly learn, the school I use to go too didn't even teach music or have a piano there.

I am studying music this year though and the high school I go to has a baby grand piano, it should be good.

[faulty_damper]

Video yourself playing. Watch it. Then ask yourself, do you really want to look that way while playing?  Then compare yourself to various pianists.  Find the pianist who appears to use the least amount of effort with the greatest amount of musical effectiveness. Emulate those movements.

[j_menz]

Then ask yourself, do you really want to look that way while playing? 

I always wanted to be taller, and slightly more Spanish looking. Maybe Russian.

[bonesquirrel]

Video yourself playing. Watch it. Then ask yourself, do you really want to look that way while playing?  Then compare yourself to various pianists.  Find the pianist who appears to use the least amount of effort with the greatest amount of musical effectiveness. Emulate those movements.

Wait hold on what? Your confusing sound with looks right? I don't care what I look like when I play, all I care about is what I sound like. Worrying about looks on the piano is like worrying about how loud your feet sound when they hit the ground in hip hop dancing.... Who cares.

[faulty_damper]

Wait hold on what? Your confusing sound with looks right? I don't care what I look like when I play, all I care about is what I sound like. Worrying about looks on the piano is like worrying about how loud your feet sound when they hit the ground in hip hop dancing.... Who cares.

I do not make any confusion on this point.  Just like I can tell with a high degree of certainty how a pianist is playing only by listening, I can tell the kind of music a pianist is making only by watching.  The two are directly intertwined.  One does not exist without the other.  It's like lip reading.  A lip reader does not need to hear what a person says to understand.  Likewise, you do not need to see a person speak in order to know what he is doing with his mouth.

[awesom_o]

Playing the piano is the easiest thing in the world, like juggling and gymnastics.

Do you juggle or do gymnastics, faulty?

[j_menz]

I can tell the kind of music a pianist is making only by watching.  The two are directly intertwined.

So the whole Bakelite/Vinyl/CD/iTunes thing is wasted on you, then?

Oh, and doesn't that kinda disqualify you from commenting in the audition room where there's a recording only (no video)?

[diomedes]

I'm going to have to start working on this one very soon. In my experience, very fast repeated note technique should not derive it's success from a good piano. It's failure can possibly be attributed to a very bad piano, perhaps.

In this case, I don't think I'd use the same finger for all the notes, i'm surprised it's possible to be honest but if someone like Valentina makes a demonstration of it, then that makes a statement. I have a Peters edition in my possession of the Rhapsodies and it has 2 sets of fingerings both of which are alternating/switching fingerings always. I've already settled on which i'll use.

Last time I worked on heavy repeated note technique i did develop a preference of one piano over another, but bias of that kind was probably part of the learning process, at certain stages my familiarity of the material was inconsistent. Once learned properly, however, it simply does not matter. Cold hard statment: either you can do it or not (after a lot of work, sure). I'll point out the passages i'm thinking of I was able to play to my satisfaction on a yamaha clavinova too.

[bonesquirrel]

Likewise, you do not need to see a person speak in order to know what he is doing with his mouth.

Then you don't need to see a person play to know what he sounds like...... AHHHH!!

[chopinlover01]

Watching a pianist play can be important, but is usually not. And it's not important for the reasons Faulty mentioned.
I think what he was getting at is more effective movements:
Making sure you're not playing always with your arms
Making sure your hand is always free of tension
etc etc etc
Seeing that, pointing it out, and fixing it can help with bad technique at the piano.

[bonesquirrel]

Watching a pianist play can be important, but is usually not. And it's not important for the reasons Faulty mentioned.
I think what he was getting at is more effective movements:
Making sure you're not playing always with your arms
Making sure your hand is always free of tension
etc etc etc
Seeing that, pointing it out, and fixing it can help with bad technique at the piano.

Well if thats the case, an this is about me improving my own performance. Why do I need to video myself? Wont I get the exact same amount of information by look at my hands while I play? They are my hands, I know what I'm doing with them an if I mess up Ill be able to tell instantly without needing to video myself doing it.

[outin]

I know what I'm doing with them an if I mess up Ill be able to tell instantly without needing to video myself doing it.

Most people don't. Yes, you hear if you play a wrong note, but you do not notice your movements and are not able to assess them objectively. Playing the piano is not only about right or wrong notes, it's about the sounds and how they go together. That's affected by all the little things you do or don't do without even noticing it. That's what good teachers do, they look and listen to you and notice these things and help you make them better.

[faulty_damper]

Well if thats the case, an this is about me improving my own performance. Why do I need to video myself? Wont I get the exact same amount of information by look at my hands while I play? They are my hands, I know what I'm doing with them an if I mess up Ill be able to tell instantly without needing to video myself doing it.

I can judge a pianist with near dead accuracy by seeing less than a second of video.  No audio required.  I don't even have to see his hands.  I can see just how high or low a pianist sits just by looking at the movement of the shoulders.  The point is, an incredible amount of information can be gleaned just from viewing.  It's not what your hands are doing, though you can figure out what they are doing by looking at everything else.

I'll even go a significant step further.  No one is capable of doing this except for me but I can tell with decent accuracy how someone plays by what they say in their posts.  In your case, I'm pretty certain you are a finger pusher, claw finger.  Post a video of your hands as you play to confirm or deny.

[j_menz]

I can judge a pianist with near dead accuracy by seeing less than a second of video.  No audio required.

 

What on God's earth are you "judging"?

No one is capable of doing this except for me .

Well.... if you came to anything like the same conclusions as those who used more conventional methods that might be impressive, but since you use your own method to come to entirely unique conclusions the rest of us are rather left wondering as to the merits. My goldfish seem to use the same approach, though I rarely look to them for advice.

[bonesquirrel]

I can judge a pianist with near dead accuracy by seeing less than a second of video.  No audio required.  I don't even have to see his hands.  I can see just how high or low a pianist sits just by looking at the movement of the shoulders.  The point is, an incredible amount of information can be gleaned just from viewing.  It's not what your hands are doing, though you can figure out what they are doing by looking at everything else.

I'll even go a significant step further.  No one is capable of doing this except for me but I can tell with decent accuracy how someone plays by what they say in their posts.  In your case, I'm pretty certain you are a finger pusher, claw finger.  Post a video of your hands as you play to confirm or deny.

Ummm yeah........... My hands are massive, so for most simple classical pieces I need to put my hands in a claw shape since its the only way to actually play intervals that are that close together.

But for this piece, I play with more flat hands, especially for the right hand, which is what this topic is about.

An like j_menz said. What the hell are you judging?

[dfrankjazz]

I highly recommend this great new class on this piece from the super-talented pianist/educator Emma Leiuman:

[faulty_damper]

Ummm yeah........... My hands are massive, so for most simple classical pieces I need to put my hands in a claw shape since its the only way to actually play intervals that are that close together.

But for this piece, I play with more flat hands, especially for the right hand, which is what this topic is about.

An like j_menz said. What the hell are you judging?

So you do confirm that you are a finger pusher, claw finger.   
Waiting for the video.  The video isn't for me, it's really for yourself.

[bonesquirrel]

So you do confirm that you are a finger pusher, claw finger.   
Waiting for the video.  The video isn't for me, it's really for yourself.

That is just silly sir...... Of course Im a 'claw finger'. Anyone with massive hands has to play like that for pieces that have 2nd and 3rd intervals scattered everywhere. You already knew I had big hands if you followed my posts. So its not like your really predicting anything.

An I'm not uploading any video. I don't remember stating I was.

Btw I hunch over the piano a lot if your wondering, but that's not related to my playing, at all. I hunch because I'm like well over 6 foot 2 and I'm only 15. So you cant judge someones playing by a bad back or arthritis or condition in there spine, the same as you cant judge someones playing by a good posture.

[pianoplayer002]

Btw I hunch over the piano a lot if your wondering, but that's not related to my playing, at all. I hunch because I'm like well over 6 foot 2 and I'm only 15. So you cant judge someones playing by a bad back or arthritis or condition in there spine, the same as you cant judge someones playing by a good posture.

Posture does have an effect on playing, because some of the muscles that have to strain to support you when you have a bad posture are involved in moving the arms. If you cannot move your arms with suppleness, everything is ten times more difficult to do at the piano. If you have to hunch over, try to get a lower chair. When your hands are on the keyboard and your arms are floating freely and with suppleness in every joint, your elbows should be slightly higher or at the level of the white keys.
 

Well if thats the case, an this is about me improving my own performance. Why do I need to video myself? Wont I get the exact same amount of information by look at my hands while I play? They are my hands, I know what I'm doing with them an if I mess up Ill be able to tell instantly without needing to video myself doing it.

Example: A guy who plays the piano raises his shoulders high each time he plays a chord. Because this is a habit, he doesn't feel he is doing it, but it is detrimental to his control and ease in chord playing. If he films himself, he can notice that he is doing tense stuff with the rest of his body that directly affects his control over his hands. Of course, it is very hard to know what to look for when you begin, that's why a good teacher is so useful to have.

[vansh]

Do you juggle or do gymnastics, faulty?

I have nothing really to contribute other than to say that I do juggle and used to do gymnastics. I can juggle 5 balls. I can also juggle (3) torches. When I was doing gymnastics, I got up to roundoff back handsprings (though not well). Like both, playing piano is more about finesse and dexterity (very fine-tuned muscle control) rather than brute strength, but um the difference with those and piano playing is that music tends to be a lot more subtle, requiring very careful shaping and a lot of sensitivity to the sound.

Oh I guess also that I looked at Hamelin's video of HR2 and found that for this section, it *seems* like he initially has his left hand help out with the repeated notes, then when this section goes into octaves for the right hand, it *seems* like he only plays the top note with the right hand and plays the repeated notes using thumb and index finger, while using the left hand to play the bottom note of the octave. Lisitsa does use the woodpecker technique (same finger on repeated notes), ring finger initially then index finger during the octaves. Ott, Tsujii, and undoubtedly others switch fingers (i.e. 4-3-2). So certainly it seems like there's different ways to tackle this passage. I switch fingers, but 1) I'm not a concert pianist so I'm not a good point of reference and 2) I hadn't considered that others would use different technique on this before. The sheet music I got suggested switching fingers.

[faulty_damper]

That is just silly sir...... Of course Im a 'claw finger'. Anyone with massive hands has to play like that for pieces that have 2nd and 3rd intervals scattered everywhere. You already knew I had big hands if you followed my posts. So its not like your really predicting anything.

An I'm not uploading any video. I don't remember stating I was.

Btw I hunch over the piano a lot if your wondering, but that's not related to my playing, at all. I hunch because I'm like well over 6 foot 2 and I'm only 15. So you cant judge someones playing by a bad back or arthritis or condition in there spine, the same as you cant judge someones playing by a good posture.

I don't follow your posts so I didn't know that you have massive hands.  I'm not judging the claw finger, finger pusher based on this knowledge but on various things that you've described. Further, the size of the hand doesn't determine that you must play this way.

And yeah, if you're hunching then you're sitting way too high.  That is indeed related to your playing.  And yes, I can indeed judge someone's playing by their posture.  I know what they can do easily or struggling dependent upon it.  All parts of the body are interconnected.  Move one and it affects the other to varying degrees.

[cwjalex]

oops wrong thread.

[j_menz]

And yeah, if you're hunching then you're sitting way too high. 

Ahem.

Any lower and he'd need a hole in the floor.

[vansh]

Ahem.

It's kind of hard to tell but are his legs crossed?!? It kind of looks like it.

[j_menz]

It's kind of hard to tell but are his legs crossed?!? It kind of looks like it.

Either that, or Bach was the least of his claims to fame.

[maestroanth]

If it's the part you're talking about that I'm thinking of, don't use just one finger for repeated notes in that piece, that just sounds painful. I almost have to insist on that. :/ I may be wrong, but that just sounds really tense. I actually played this a little myself a long time ago i.e. here's the clip:

Take my advice as you will and Good luck!!!

[bonesquirrel]

I find it actually pretty easy near the start of the 'repeated note' part, to alternate between the 4th, 3rd and 2nd finger.

But it gets harder where I have to keep the repeated note going but also play octaves, you should know which part I mean.

Do you think I should slowly build up speed with the 4th, 3rd and 2nd fingers with this octave part like I did the other part, or attempt spazing one of my fingers on the note.

[bonesquirrel]

If it's the part you're talking about that I'm thinking of, don't use just one finger for repeated notes in that piece, that just sounds painful. I almost have to insist on that. :/ I may be wrong, but that just sounds really tense. I actually played this a little myself a long time ago i.e. here's the clip:

Take my advice as you will and Good luck!!!

Beautiful playing.

[awesom_o]

I have nothing really to contribute other than to say that I do juggle and used to do gymnastics. I can juggle 5 balls. I can also juggle (3) torches. When I was doing gymnastics, I got up to roundoff back handsprings (though not well).

Amazing! You must be pretty cool. Do you still juggle on a regular basis?