< TECHNIQUE TRAINING & PRACTICING >

[pianoplayerstar]

What is your preferred way of Practicing?  What WAS your preferred way of "TRAINING" before you began Practicing to Perform?

Some say that practicing scales is useless; I beg to differ.

I really like Danil Trifonov's style... Rubinstein is just a gifted genius, so I don't know if he can really be emulated in terms of TRAINING.

Question is:  (1) What has worked best for you? (2) Any good (even BASIC books) books you would recommend? and (3) Daily Schedule Recommended?

... I know some will say "You cannot get around 10,000 hours - you MUST practice 10,000 hours no matter what".

I'd like to get your take on this?

Thanks.
PianoPlayerStar

[pianist1976]

Could you, please, elaborate in more detail what you mean by "Trifonov style" and "Rubinstein training"?

[pianoplayerstar]

Trifonov's got a crystal clear clean style to his playing.. so does Arthur Rubinstein; however, the latter has a 'magical' element to his playing.. more than crystal.. but a diamond kind of playing.

I don't know if you know what I mean.

I'm curious how they got that way. What books, training techniques they used?

[hardy_practice]

All this emulating, bound to end in tears!

[pianoplayerstar]

What daily schedule and books did you all use for TRAINING ?

[hardy_practice]

I used a teacher with stuff like Beethoven sonatas, Schubert impromptus, Chopin waltzes and such like.

[goldentone]

Trifonov's got a crystal clear clean style to his playing.. so does Arthur Rubinstein; however, the latter has a 'magical' element to his playing.. more than crystal.. but a diamond kind of playing.

I don't know if you know what I mean.

I'm curious how they got that way. What books, training techniques they used?

The magic comes from the soul.  Rubinstein's secret is himself.

 

[goldentone]

All this emulating, bound to end in tears!

Heh?  Maybe if a piano lover were married to a woodsmith.  That could start a garden!

[pianoplayer002]

Trifonov's got a crystal clear clean style to his playing.. so does Arthur Rubinstein; however, the latter has a 'magical' element to his playing.. more than crystal.. but a diamond kind of playing.

I don't know if you know what I mean.

I'm curious how they got that way. What books, training techniques they used?

Of course, there are the basic elements of a technique, which is a supple, free playing mechanism; fingers, hands, wrists, elbows, shoulders must all be free from contraction and rigidity during playing even the most difficult compositions. There are no specific exercises to acquire this, but rather you must always be mindful that you are allowing this freedom to be present in all practise you do. As for the "magical" element of Rubinsteins playing - he used his ears to listen for the sounds he wanted.

[pianoplayerstar]

good to know. thanks.

what books in general do you like for technique? any specific repertoire (time, # of times, how?)?

[j_menz]

Depends where you're starting from. Perhaps you might care to elaborate on that.

[pianoplayerstar]

Hanon? Basic Scales, Arpeggios, 3rd's, 6ths ... ? what else?

[j_menz]

Hanon? Basic Scales, Arpeggios, 3rd's, 6ths ... ? what else?

Do you play any actual, you know, music?

[stoat_king]

Do you play any actual, you know, music?

'Playing music', as you so quaintly put it, is merely a crutch for those who lack confidence in their talent.
Wow - you'll be telling us next that we actually need to sit down at a keyboard of some sort.
As if capitulating to the base and ignoble 'reality' would achieve anything other than further distancing us from the spiritual nature of the music itself.
Your comment has filled me with righteous indignation. Harrumph!

[j_menz]

'Playing music', as you so quaintly put it, is merely a crutch for those who lack confidence in their talent.
Wow - you'll be telling us next that we actually need to sit down at a keyboard of some sort.
As if capitulating to the base and ignoble 'reality' would achieve anything other than further distancing us from the spiritual nature of the music itself.
Your comment has filled me with righteous indignation. Harrumph!

My humblest apologies. I keep forgetting that the best pianists have never felt the need to actually go near one. 

[rmbarbosa]

If you wish to practice "exercises", I sugest the exercises of Liszt (free download) but with a great care to avoid tension. Scales, harps, thirds, etc.. "Gradus ad parnassum" (Clementi) and/or Czerny...
This is the traditional approach to "learning" piano.
There is another approach: why to spend time with scales and harps, if you have a lot of sonatinas and sonatas from the classical period where you may play a lot of scales and harps? why to spend time with cord jumps in technical exercises if you have the same jumps in the romantics?
For a begginer, I supose that it is important to play some exercises (scales, harps, etc...). But when one has already some technical support, it`s far better to play Bach (littler preludes, Inventions...), Clementi, Diabelli, Kulack, Mozart... and after this Beethoven, Schuman, Chopin... and allways Bach...
But this is only what I think...

[gr8ape]

I practiced scales for months when I started playing again about 1-1.5 years ago.

Then I relearned Mozart K545, and realized my scales were sh*t.

I improved my scales more practicing playing K545 and making it sound like I think it should sound than by going through the 12 scales x 4 octaves ....

Then again maybe if I hadnt been practicing scales before k545 would have been even worst!

And I have no doubt a healthy amount of rachmaninov (& others) will improve your chord accuracy and precision.

I think the more advanced you are, and the more repertoire you have, the more pieces can and should be used for technique improvement. That doesnt prevent you from making up technical drills to master certain passages, in fact thats what one should do to improve... But basic scales and arpeggios? maybe not so much

[hardy_practice]

Have you tried eating spinach?

[gr8ape]

Have you tried eating spinach?

the other green plants I have consumed have been detrimental to my playing

[hardy_practice]

Really?  Memory quite definitely but....?

[gr8ape]

Not that much memory, but coordination mainly, def. cant play well after I had some special spinach
Improvisations will sound better though :p

Joking aside though, sleeping well, exercising and eating right is important for improving anything!

[hardy_practice]

1) sleep
2) yoga
3) eat right

[newkidintown]

Someone posted this a while ago and I've found it very helpful:

https://pianoexercises.org/exercises/philipp/philipp-complete-school-of-technic.pdf

 Just be careful to stay relaxed and start slow.

[pianoplayerstar]

all good stuff! thank you!

the theory goes like this:  do you want to study the veins of the leaf... then the leaf,,,, then the tree,,, then the forest?  OR

do you want to study bits of the veins, bits of the leaf, and just jump to the Forest Studies and so that the "ends justify the means"?

if i go from bach to beethoven to bach and then to rachmaninoff, that might be more fun and interesting.... HOWEVER,

if i start out with the creative push of scales play a la "hanon", maybe I should just play scales scales scales and arpeggios arpeggios and arpeggios BEFORE I ever attempt to play K.545 ====>  I prefer to dive into K.545.  At first, one may think it is a joke to play.... however, eventually, you will begin to think like a Barenboim or a Rubinstein and say "Wow, Mozart is a genius! His pieces ARE quite a challenge!"

your thoughts on this?
pianoplayerstar

[j_menz]

your thoughts on this?

I think whatever you're on, you need to cut down.

[pianoplayerstar]

.. maybe i should just start out with scales, harps ("arp's" or "rolls"... whatever you wanna call it) and 3rds?

[tombikadam]

stay a way from boring scale or hanon exercises, try to play the notes with non-glued fingers, make every finger WORK and control them while playing, slow tempo= big finger movement ... make the finger movement very little as you speed up the SPEED..

[pianoplayerstar]

how? what do you mean non-glued fingers exactly?

Do you have any step-by-step procedures?
pps

[bonesquirrel]

it`s far better to play Bach (littler preludes, Inventions...), Clementi, Diabelli, Kulack, Mozart... and after this Beethoven, Schuman, Chopin... and allways Bach...
But this is only what I think...

I agree with you on this, except the Beethoven thing. There are plenty of Beethoven pieces for absolute beginners. Really I don't think it's wise to class any composer as "first you do this composer then move up to this one". Since there are some incredibly hard Bach pieces, an some beginner-intermediate Schuman. I think like you said, always do Bach, but don't class Bach as easy or hard, same with every other composer.

[pianoplayerstar]

I see bach as the grandfather of classical music.... Practicing bach can help with left hand independence or autonomy

[anamnesis]

Scales and the like are useless by themselves.

Their purpose is to help you learn the keyboard geography and nomenclature, most relevant to the tonal structure of the piece.

Going through all the scales in one sitting isn't as useful you just have to drill them for an exam.

Learning the scales relevant the piece you are learning is much more beneficial.  What's better is if you can improvise based on that scale, as well as modulate to the most related scales (parallel minor on the tonic, relative minor, only 1 sharp/flat difference), with theoretical and aural understanding.

You should also know the function of each scale degree and how it leads from one note to the next. Essentially you should be able to justify and account for every single note of a piece of music you are playing.

How can you learn that abstractly, rather than pragmatically, without actual music in front of you?

[pianoplayerstar]

... speaking of MODULATION.  what are some good techniques and structure practice advice on this? any good ones: website, books...?

[chopinlover01]

Improvisation. See what sounds good to your ear.

[rmbarbosa]

Bonesquirrell,
When I mentioned Bach, I didnt say that he is easy. But I put "little preludes, inventions..." because they are the first steps when playing Bach; Then, I have put Diabelli, Clementi, Kuhlau, because they have many easy sonatinas where one may be introduced in the classical period; I do know Beethoven has some easy compositions, but his style is different and the approach to Beethoven music is different also. For begginers, its very important to achieve a perfect control of scales and harps and this is best achieved with Bach and the classics, I think.

[bonesquirrel]

Bonesquirrell,
When I mentioned Bach, I didnt say that he is easy. But I put "little preludes, inventions..." because they are the first steps when playing Bach; Then, I have put Diabelli, Clementi, Kuhlau, because they have many easy sonatinas where one may be introduced in the classical period; I do know Beethoven has some easy compositions, but his style is different and the approach to Beethoven music is different also. For begginers, its very important to achieve a perfect control of scales and harps and this is best achieved with Bach and the classics, I think.

My learning in order of composer - Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Schuman then Bach (no Mozart, yet). - I absolutely agree with what your saying, I'm in no way implying that your statements are incorrect. I was just saying that you can really start with pretty much any composer.

[pianoplunker]

If you wish to practice "exercises", I sugest the exercises of Liszt (free download) but with a great care to avoid tension. Scales, harps, thirds, etc.. "Gradus ad parnassum" (Clementi) and/or Czerny...
This is the traditional approach to "learning" piano.
There is another approach: why to spend time with scales and harps, if you have a lot of sonatinas and sonatas from the classical period where you may play a lot of scales and harps? why to spend time with cord jumps in technical exercises if you have the same jumps in the romantics?
For a begginer, I supose that it is important to play some exercises (scales, harps, etc...). But when one has already some technical support, it`s far better to play Bach (littler preludes, Inventions...), Clementi, Diabelli, Kulack, Mozart... and after this Beethoven, Schuman, Chopin... and allways Bach...
But this is only what I think...

You have a good point, but scales and other patterned exercises give you a chance to get familiar with every key. You could learn Bach Inventions in every key but you would still need to understand the scale and chords so might as well learn them and understand how they make the music.