Learning Diary - Scriabin 5 - Please comment!

[pianoman53]

Hi all,

Inspired by the similar thread about Prokofiev 2, I will now start my own learning Diary. This one is, as you see, about Scriabin 5. I already started working on it, but it's still fairly fresh...

Instead of writing, I'll post recordings a bit now and then.

[pianoman53]

First recording:

The room was really cold, so that affected everything a bit, but apart from wrong notes (I mean, it's Scriabin 5... there will be wrong notes..), tempo is by far the trickiest thing. I'm not sure about the tempo in the development. On one hand, he didn't write many markings that he wrote in both the exposition and the recap, which, in a way, proves that it's not the same... and he didn't write a new tempo! But on the other hand, everyone else (except Gould) changes the tempo. Not that the majority is automatically right, but it's quite risky to go against everyone.

All in all, however, I'm quite happy with this, being the first recording and all.

[pianoman53]

Help is obviously appreciated, even though not all recordings will be the complete piece.

[mjames]

Weird how awesome posts like these usually get ignored on pianostreet. I would help if I could...

[ajlongspiano]

Sounds brilliant so far, Piano Man! This is a great piece, did you know that Scriabin wrote it in eight days? I couldn't believe it when I found out. My favorite recording of this is probably Richter's. The way he plays those grace notes in the introduction is so clean and effortless. Almost sounds like a glissando. I'm really impressed by the way you play this. I think the slow parts show your best so far. The Languido section is pretty much flawless. You shape the melody in a way that's subtle and doesn't ruin the sense of stasis in that section. I think the Presto con allegrezza could use a bit more work but its sounding great. I think it should be lighter and have less pedal, but that's a personal opinion since I'm a sucker for Richter's recording. I think your progress is awesome so far! Can't wait to hear updates along the way.

- AJ

[pianoman53]

Mjames: Thank you for the kind words! Pianostreet is not what it once was. Back in the days, it was seen as a big failure if you posted a recording in the evening, and did not have at least 2 constructive comments the morning after. Now, it's seen as a victory if there is any comment at all... ever....

AJ: Thank you very much! I know, it's increadible.. And the fact that there is no piece like this (except for the Ecstatic poem) written before, makes it even more amazing.
Yes, I'm quite pleased with how the beginning turned out. The presto is a real drag, and it really needs perfect conditions to work...

I will post a new one this coming week, I hope.

[verqueue]

Great idea of diary with recordings. I do similar thing at my blog and also almost no one is commenting .

It seems as a good start, you have even ideas about main motive. And the tempo isn't so bad. I like your sections in piano, you have nice sounding top notes. I think you can think more of pedal, sometimes it's too much. Still I'm not expert in this piece, so it's just my personal feeling.

Do you talk to yourself during playing or it's recording?
How long did it take you to learn it to this stage?

[pianoman53]

I had a blog too, and posted recordings.  I fond it quite pointless, because you first have to be famous to get followers, and once you have that you can't really show your weak sides in the same way.

I have a feeling that I didn't use too much pedal, but that my fingers weren't realky good enough to play through the different layers.

I've played this piece for about a month :-)

Thank you for commenting!

[diomedes]

Weird how awesome posts like these usually get ignored on pianostreet. I would help if I could...

I'm unable to relate with the desire to get recognition with these things, I personally believe that these pursuits should be more motivated internally, rather than motivated by others. Rely on your own ability to satisfy yourself rather than recognition by others. It's more rewarding. But that's my point of view. I have a youtube channel i maintain, I honestly couldn't care less is nobody notices it, it's meant to document my standards for myself and whatever other purpose that may come of it.

Good initiative on picking up one of the harder Scriabin sonatas. Almost all of them are close to impractical in demands. The jumps in this one and pressure for speed make accuracy in this one basically unplayable in some ways.

What other repertoire have you done at this level?

[verqueue]

I'm unable to relate with the desire to get recognition with these things, I personally believe that these pursuits should be more motivated internally, rather than motivated by others. Rely on your own ability to satisfy yourself rather than recognition by others. It's more rewarding. But that's my point of view. I have a youtube channel i maintain, I honestly couldn't care less is nobody notices it, it's meant to document my standards for myself and whatever other purpose that may come of it.

I don't bother with views and comments on my blog too. It's mainly for myself. I even write numbers of bars instead of spot descriptions and only someone truly interested will take the score . So I totally agree w diomedes.

I have a feeling that I didn't use too much pedal, but that my fingers weren't realky good enough to play through the different layers.

I've played this piece for about a month :-)

So you are fast memorizer! How much did you practiced it during that month?
With pedal - yeah, maybe it's the lack of layers, it's very likely.

[pianoman53]

Diomedes,
You're ofc right.. But it's still more fun if one gets some respons from other.

Yes, from a technical view, the jumps are crazy. Though, it's more the need for total relaxation that I feel will be a problem. A few wrong notes in a passage where both Richter and Sofronitsky plays more wrong notes than right notes, should not be a problem to forgive.
However, to not have a full tone in those massive climaxes later on is not as forgivable...

Right now, this is by far the most difficult piece in my program. I also play first book of images, and  a Schubert sonata (a minor, 784), Fantasy and Fugue on the theme BACH, Mozart a minor rondo, and this one. I also started to play the third Prokofiev concerto, but it was not for me...
I also do some chamber music, and some lieds with a singer.



Verques:

I usually practice a total of at least 5 hours. Most of it goes to this piece.. So maybe 4 hours per day?

[j_menz]

But it's still more fun if one gets some respons from other.

We may test that theory. 

Yes, from a technical view, the jumps are crazy.

I'm not really familiar with this piece, so have refrained form commenting simply because I thought anything I could say about what you posted you probably knew much better than I and so to may suggestions would be presumptuous in the extreme.

I did have a sightread through of it today. On the piano. Out loud. It was, of course, spectacularly ghastly and I told the complaining neighbours that they should seek redress from you rather than me.

However.... on the jumps. Possibly I can help. Of all the technical horrors in this piece, them I didn't notice.

I have found that at least what worked for me was to stop thinking about them as leaps at all.

Just think of the notes and what you intend to do with them and trust that the piano doesn't move. The notes are where you left them and you know where they are. In short - don't think of the lap at all, trust it will just take care of itself and concentrate on the notes. You may be surprised how effective it is, though initially it seems quite incredible.

As a tease - you've probably played a few waltzes with (much simpler) leaps without actually thinking of them as leaps at all, and they work fine - just expand the principle.

Sometimes what holds us back is our minds - let it be free.

I'd encourage you to give it a go for a bit. If it doesn't work, you've lost nothing bar a few hours - if it does, you can start concentration on the really hard bits.

[pianoman53]

J_Menz: You're right.. Though the comments I was referring to were from users, who not only ask for a faster tempo.

I've tried that, to not see them as jumps, but to see them as rather melodic intervals. It works when one hand is playing, but when both hands go, irregularly, to different places, it's very difficult to not freak out a little. But yes, half of the difficulty is to not think "Okay... here they come.. aaaand... GO GOGO!!!!!" when they come...

[diomedes]

I can list the works that pushed me past my limits with leaps, I'm fairly confident that jumps in general of that kind are the worst technical difficulty in piano repertoire. Unless maybe you're trying to play the Chopin g# op.25 at the same speed as Josef Lhevinne.

For me, I memorize the passage so solid that i can play through the passage purely in my mind consciously with both hands while carrying a conversation with someone. Memorize it to that degree, that's the first step. Then take on a zero tolerance approach at the piano, find exactly that speed where you can play it with no mistakes at all, but if you went faster they'd surface. Then just push, the mechanical memory will respond fairly well and things will build. But mistakes must be zero tolerance.

You also have a particular issue that I still dislike a lot: Sonata form. Your passage is very difficult. But then, you need to play it in the recap in a similar key. So similar that the memory process will confuse the two and that disrupts accuracy.

That last part ruined a recording of mine of the 1st Scriabin sonata. The 1st movement has man-killing leaps as the closing theme. Exposition was fine for me, but recap at the very end lost it noticeably. The recording was one of my finer achievements, but that stain is still there for exactly those reasons. I might return to it later, but learning that thing was no fun, it's a behemoth.

[ahoffmann]

Well congrats on your choice of repertoire!
I absolutely love this piece.
And well done. I know first hand what a beast this thing is and you're clearly doing very well.

You asked specifically about the middle section and tempi. I have to say I personally like to do what most people will say is "wrong" and that is change the tempo a LOT - and suddenly. To me, this section is an expression of chaos and disorder, where the contrasting elements almost erratically switch between each other and all come together in the climax at the end of that section. How fast I play each element is guided by how fast it was when it appeared in the first section of the piece. It doesn't have to be exactly that speed but I think it should at least remind one of its original version. But that's just my own interpretation.

[gustavmahler74]

Hi! I'm sorry I'm a little late... I am learning this sonata as well, and I would love to exchange some tips.
So for the development, yes, I change tempo at 185, but not ridiculously. It's more a gradual accelerando and crescendo, since there is no change marked. At the moment of the change, I change articulation to marcato to give a color change. And as for the leaps, I find it helps to concentrate on the chords beneath them, and only hear the chord leaps as a one-note-at-a-time sort of melody/arabesque. I can't really help with m. 334/340, but I do find it makes it a little easier to concentrate on the lh and not even listen to the rh.
The sections that I have the most trouble with are the presto con allegrezza theme (keeping the sound consistent, and balancing the pedal and the staccato) and the rh. In ms. 243-246 (I'm fine with similar figures elsewhere, but all the white keys make it harder).