Chopin nocturne op 48 no 1

[francoisfj]

This is my recording of Chopin's nocturne op 48 no 1, the quality isn't that good, but I hope you will give me your criticism and feedback on it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4_7T-cQAZc&feature=youtu.be

[faulty_damper]

It's way too slow.  Pedal is clipped - gradually let off, like letting off the brakes on a car.

What is the music about?  None of it is expressed.

[francoisfj]

Thank you for the feedback

Which section is too slow? You mean the last section (doppio moviemento)? It's a bit unconventional, but it's about the same speed of Arthur Rubinstein's recording. And the other sections are supposed to be played slow

And which sections for the pedals? The middle section? There I would agree with you, it's not very well done indeed

But I played it in a concert at my university, everyone loved it, i don't understand when you say there's no music, maybe it's the recording?

[faulty_damper]

All of it's too slow, from the beginning to the end.  Pedal is noticeable in the very first lift, but it's a problem throughout.

But I played it in a concert at my university, everyone loved it, i don't understand when you say there's no music, maybe it's the recording?

 
I've learned to never trust the opinions of the audience immediately after a performance.  They'll lie.  To your face.  Just to say something nice.  It's not a recording issue, it's a musical issue. 

[francoisfj]

I don't understand when you say its a musical problem, you mean its not expressive enough? Too much on the same tone? My teacher has 2 master degrees and is very honest with me, she actually said I was very musical, especially in this piece. Its actually people I don't know and never met who came to tell they loved my performance they didn't have to tell me anything if they didn't like it :/
And I don't agree when you say it should be played faster, there's different interpretations allowed.

However for the pedal I agree, it might be too much

[faulty_damper]

 

When you play, are you expressing ideas or are you making nice sounds?  This is the most pertinent question that must really be explored to be understood.  Music is not about sounding nice.  It's about communicating ideas.  Sounding nice is incidental but it's not the goal of music.

In this piece, what are the moods?  What are the emotions?  Did you express those moods and emotions?  Did you express the ideas?  If you say yes because you were trying to make it sound nice, that's not correct.

However for the pedal I agree, it might be too much

You mean you used too much pedal?  I only noted that you clip the pedal, i.e. you dampen the strings abruptly. This sounds bad.

[francoisfj]

Ok I'm starting to understand what you mean, I do play quite intuitively, which generally works for me. But my teacher whom I take seriously said it was very musical, maybe I can do the begining better, I will make a new recording tomorrow, maybe you could tell me if it's sounds better when I will try to express the ideas

Oh I see for the pedal. I'll try to fix it too

[francoisfj]

So I uploaded a new recording of the nocturne (with the same picture and title) on youtube, is it better? Please let me know what you think

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX8ib4CwdS8&feature=youtu.be

[faulty_damper]

Tempo-wise, it's still much too slow.  Musically, it's not expressing the character.  The piece opens with expressions of anguish but you play it too romance-like, too focused on making nice sounds, too airy in feel.  There's no pain in it.  You should perform it like you are thrusting a dagger in your chest.  Then painfully pull it out and cry aloud.

[francoisfj]

Ok i get you mean.. musically it's played differently, it's a problem in all my interpretation, I play them all with that airy feeling.

Ok last one really, this is yet another recording of the nocturne, this time of a better quality (done a digital piano at my university)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8d8l8izHRM&feature=youtu.be

[faulty_damper]

It's not any different from before.

[francoisfj]

I get it, most people don't play it like that, I had a look on many recordings on youtube, but take a look on these versions by well known and respected pianist

Askhenazy : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=107Iwx5RKSM

Valentina Igoshina : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3zNVUH7-xU

They play it at the same pace as I, and with the same feel you described

finally, the doppio movement (last section) by Arthur Rubustein: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7mntyrW3HU

[faulty_damper]

And I would say that all of them get the character wrong.  They do play the agitato section much faster, though.

[francoisfj]

There isn't wrong in music, there are different interpretations, it's a mater of taste. Chopin didn't leave detailed instruction on how to play his pieces, and even with that, they can be played different ways. Rachmaninoff used to play the same passage from the pieces he composed differently over time.

Also, Rubinstein plays the agitato section at the same pace. I really don't understand why people rush it or more importantly, play the repeated notes the same way, they form a magnificent background melody, that gets lost in most versions (except for Rubinstein's and igoshina's)

Back to the subject of taste, it's valentina igoshina's version that made me want to learn the piece and my favorite version, which is why I tend to play that way, I understand it might not be of everyone's taste

[mjames]

No wonder the pedaling sounds so weird, it's a digital piano. Your acciaccaturas, and ornaments lack clarity. Sometimes I barely hear the notes at all (still talking about the ornaments). I think you should work more on the pedalling, but I don't theres much you can do about that considering it's a digital piano.

The middle section lacks, phrasing, and a singing line. It's like you're just playing notes, not music.

Just got to the doppio movimento...yup theres definitely something wrong with your pedalling. There are gaps in between each bar, and I don't think that's intentional. Aside from the pedalling the chords sound clunky (better than the first video though) and choppy. I mean, I get where you want to go with this piece and I agree that's a matter of taste but there are quite a lot of technical and musical issues in this performance.

my advice would be to just let it go, let it rest and work on something else (that's easier too). I can tell you worked a lot on this but sometimes you just need to give it a break. And the next time you work on this, pleeeeeeeeease work on it with an acoustic. It's a completely different experience.

[francoisfj]

Yeah the pedaling is indeed very wrong, I think it's the digital piano, there's something wrong with it; especially in the faster places
And I agree with you on the middle section, I should me it more musical
I have an acoustic at home (baby grand Yamaha) I practice and play on it all the time, it's just that I thought that time for the recording it sounds better when it's recorded directly from a piano, rather than from a low quality microphone from my camera. I have made other recordings on my acoustic piano, they're at te begining and 7th post of the thread

But this piece is not very complicated for me, I play some Chopin's ballade as well as Rachmaninoff and Liszt works, but they all end up lacking something. I didn't have a proper musical education, I'm mostly self taught and only recently begun taking piano lessons with a teacher, I havent learned the basic things like scales and those things so it shows in my playing :/
Thanks for the feedback

[faulty_damper]

It seems like you are trying to justify your performance by saying that so and so does it that way and they are famous so they can't be wrong and since I'm playing like that then I can't be wrong, either.  This is severely flawed logic.

This piece is an interpretation nightmare considering how virtually everyone gets the expression of the Lento wrong.  Chopin didn't write a contemplative lullaby.  He wrote a piece of anguish.  He indicates this by the expressive markings "mezzo voce" (as opposed to mp).  It further culminates in a "stretto" of the melodic line to indicate severity. Further, how odd is it that the bass is doubled at the octave.  What quality does this imply?

If you compare it to Op.55 No.1 in F minor, the LH accompaniment is very similar but why is the bass not doubled at the octave like it is here?  Go ahead and double it to hear the difference.  Does it sound right?  Does it change the character too much to be in the same mood?

Now go back to Op.48-1 and play the bass as a single note.  You should immediately hear that the quality is very different, perhaps even completely out of character if you are sensitive enough to the difference.  This is what I mean when I say that your performance (and others) is incorrect.  That's not what Chopin wrote.

Go ahead and play it loud and fast just to get some feel for that anguish.  Then back the aggression down until it feels just right.  It's much louder than you perform (which was too soft) and much faster as well.

[francoisfj]

your analysis seems right, however how someone chooses to express this pain differs from a person to another. In the interpretation I showed you, it's more of a languishing pain, I hear more Lamentations and weakness in the slow and soft interpretation that in the fast one when I hear more of an active anger, a pain he has control of.

Beside, there is far more liberty in music than what you restrain yourself to, you stick to deep analysis, instead of more sentimental guidance.

Being famous doesn't justify being correct, however, being that they reached such a level of recognition, assuming te audience is cultivated enough to have leveled them up to where they are, we should take seriously their point of view and think of it well before discarding it. In that case I exlained to you how I think their interpretation is consistent, and if you ask them directly they probably would have more to say

[faulty_damper]

It doesn't sound like any pain the way you play it.  That's why I keep mentioning this problem and why I suggest that it should be faster and louder.   The music is definitely not lamenting as there's nothing in the musical statements that suggest this.  Further, you still justify your performance based on these famous pianists.  Just because they are famous doesn't make them right.  That's a fallacy, like how some people still refer to Horowitz and Gould as the ultimate pinnacle of piano playing.  Anyway, all you have to do is try what I suggest.  It's guaranteed to improve the music significantly.

Also, the agitato section, you need to figure out the movements to easily execute it.  It's a technical issue that is preventing expression.

[pianoman53]

Faulty, seriously, shut up. Nothing you say makes any good comment. You have yet to show what a tremendous musician you are, and you have yet to give a single valid comment.

There is nothing at all wrong with the tempo!

FrancoisFj, don't listen to him. He is delusional, and his only comment, ever, is "Play it faster", which proves what a terrible musician he must be.


Again, the tempo is fine. What's not fine is the voicing in the left hand. All chords needs to be voiced the same. Sometimes the top note is loudest, and sometimes some other note is the loudest, and that's not right. I prefer top in the chords, but I can imagine that other people might like it differently. You still need to be consistent in what you do.

Another problem is the phrasing, too many notes stick out from the phrase, and "jazzy accents" appears.
You have to listen so that the line is evenly played, and more of how a (Good) singer would sing it. Listen to the long notes, and hear how loud, or soft, the next note can be.

I would suggest to practice only right hand, very slowly, so that you can hear the line a bit clearer.


The slow c major-theme needs more practicing. The voicing of the melody is wrong, and it, more often than not, disappears. The melody needs to be a bit louder in general, so you have space to go down. The pedal is also an issue here. You need to catch the bass note, otherwise you get very strange harmonies... There are some ways to keep the top note, while changing chords, but I never tried it, and don't have time to check now. The principal is that you simply hold the melody note a little longer, so that you have time to both connect the chord and the melody. If you phrase it, and voice it, well enough, it wont disturb the pedal.


The doppio is too slow. It means double tempo, and you play in somewhat the same tempo, no?
Here, your hands needs to be relaxed, otherwise it wont work. You also need to figure out the pedal, because now you're simply underpedaling it, heavily. The melody also needs to be much clearer.


In general, you need to play out the melody much more than you do. It might sound strange in the beginning, but no one hears it the same as you do. I did the same mistake before, and I thought it was no problem, but it really takes away all color.

What else are you playing? This is a very difficult piece, and maybe it would be wise to play something slightly easier, just to fix the voicing issue, and to have more space to sing the melody..

Faulty, Chopin didn't write forte. You can believe that you are a bigger genius than he is, but not everything painful is loud and outgoing.
How about the Mozart requiem. Don't you feel the pain in the pp Lacrimosa? If you don't, well, I'm sorry. Maybe you should be something else than a fantasy musician. Maybe fantasy plumber would fit better.

[pianoman53]

Oh btw, Francoise, Faulty doesn't base his comments on deep analysis. He bases it on made up logic and assumptions that only makes sense to him.

[francoisfj]

Thank you for your comments on each section!

I agree with you on the pedal, it's definitely wrong the way it is, but I think it's because of the digital piano, I don't usually get that on an acoustic
I also agree about the voicing in the left hand, I'll try to fix it
Your point on the voicing of the slow major section is definetly right, I have to practice it :/
I know the doppio is slow, I'll try to play a bit faster but that's how I like it played, Rubinstein's does it that way too, and I agree with his interpretation. However i agree hat I should play the melody higher in this section, I'm also surprised when I hear my recording of the lack of these notes

I play some relatively more difficult pieces, like Chopin ballade 1, polonaise heroique, fantaisie impromptu, sonata 2 1rsr movement, also a couple of Rachmaninoff preludes including the op 23 no 5, Liszt liebstraum, I don't really find this one very complicated anymore, I used to a couple years ago though
I'll take account of these things tomorrow and get a relatively better microphone from my uncle to make a new recording, maybe it would sound better!

[faulty_damper]

If you listen to Pianoman53 play, it'll be obvious that he's not a good pianist.  He has obvious technical issues which he can't overcome.  Ever.  His idea of improving is more practice.  Worse is that he doesn't have a musical ear.  He hears notes, not ideas.  That's why he's angry and always says the exact same things because I don't have the issues he has. He's envious.  He will live the rest of his life struggling because he doesn't know how to play.  He'll eventually quit after he realizes that the amount of effort he puts in doesn't equate to what he gets out.  He's out to prove what a good pianist he is but it's just not working out for him.  He's obviously frustrated and it shows in his persistent negative attitude.  He wants me to give him piano lessons but he's afraid to ask. Why? Because he'll realize that everything I've said is right and everything he's said about me is wrong.  He also can't afford my lessons.

Also, notice that he bashes me and then goes on to say the same things that I do.  So if we were to take his own words, he's telling you not to listen to him.  I couldn't agree more.

[pianoman53]

please faulty, I invite you to criticise my Dante sonata ir my Scriabin 5. Be my guest!

And yes, I also said that the last part should be faster. My reason was "because the composer said so". You said "BECAUSE IT'S ANGRY! !!! RAAAAWR" Which doesn't make much sense. Angry and fast is not really a valid connection, just as little as sad has a connection to loud.

[j_menz]

 He wants me to give him piano lessons but he's afraid to ask. .

Pianoman53 and I don't always agree, but I've never thought him a lunatic.

[outin]

In the end I just hope people do realize that much of what they read on the net is more or less BS even when written in a convincing matter... How to tell when such is the case may be a bit difficult sometimes though. So best not to put too much weight on it unless properly researched first.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

(I listened to the first one a few days ago, and now to the most recent.) Your introductory tempo is perhaps a touch slow but it's your choice and here I'd say it's acceptable. If you're going to play it on the slow side, it becomes even more important to be expressive: there are some right hand phrases where the end becomes a bit vague/lost; also be precise and clear with the ornamentation. You could also consider trying to make a little more out of the bass movements of a second and minor second - these can be very expressive if phrased correctly. The biggest problem is in the middle section; your pedalling needs to catch the bass of those big broken chords otherwise the foundation of the music is lost. In other words, the pedal change has to come before the start of the broken chord. The doppio movimento is too slow; doppio movimento = twice as fast as the preceding section i.e. the triplet quavers take their tempo from the triplet semiquavers in the previous bar/section. In practice, you can (whilst still observing it) manipulate the level of the doppio movimento through how much you deploy the rit and accel in the preceding bar.

[faulty_damper]

please faulty, I invite you to criticise my Dante sonata ir my Scriabin 5. Be my guest!

You want me to criticize you because you actually want lessons from me.  Go *** yourself.  Or pay me for my time.  You can't afford me regardless.   Further, you make yourself a fool when you say:

  "because the composer said so". You said "BECAUSE IT'S ANGRY! !!! RAAAAWR" Which doesn't make much sense. Angry and fast is not really a valid connection, just as little as sad has a connection to loud.

Real musicians hear it without having to be told what to do.  I can imagine how clueless you are when you come across JS Bach's Prelude in C major from WTC1.  He wrote no tempo or dynamic markings at all!

[mjames]

Why the hell are you guys arguing? The dude is asking for advice and you're turning this into cock fight. Seriously, knock it off.

[cbreemer]

Every thread faulty joins turns into a fight or argument. It's understandable a bit, it's hard to
stand his megalomaniac rant without getting exasperated and snapping back. But simply
ignoring is the only thing that works in these cases. Don't feed the trolls, is my device. Oops, I guess I just did

[j_menz]

Well faulty is, of course, entitled to hold and express his views. I do think, though, that (while most of us who have been around a bit are aware of this) newcomers should probably be aware that his opinions are regarded as, putting it politely, somewhat eccentric. It would be a shame if they were mislead by silence into assuming they held any widespread credence.

[cbreemer]

Yes, good point. There should be something in the FAQ about it, or a warning during the
registration process 

[amytsuda]

I only listened to the first and last links you posted, and I like the last link. I also like the image you used in your YouTube video. If you intentionally selected the image, not just random, I think I understand where you are going with this piece. Are you also going to play Op 48 No 2? I've been always wondering why Chopin grouped those nocturnes - if he had any intention. So I've been trying to play both (or three) together last one year to see if I find any new inspiration. I just thought the way you played No 1 starts making sense to me, when No 2 comes after. Anyway, I am not a teacher, not an academic, not an expert, so am just throwing my impression.

[francoisfj]

(I listened to the first one a few days ago, and now to the most recent.) Your introductory tempo is perhaps a touch slow but it's your choice and here I'd say it's acceptable. If you're going to play it on the slow side, it becomes even more important to be expressive: there are some right hand phrases where the end becomes a bit vague/lost; also be precise and clear with the ornamentation. You could also consider trying to make a little more out of the bass movements of a second and minor second - these can be very expressive if phrased correctly. The biggest problem is in the middle section; your pedalling needs to catch the bass of those big broken chords otherwise the foundation of the music is lost. In other words, the pedal change has to come before the start of the broken chord. The doppio movimento is too slow; doppio movimento = twice as fast as the preceding section i.e. the triplet quavers take their tempo from the triplet semiquavers in the previous bar/section. In practice, you can (whilst still observing it) manipulate the level of the doppio movimento through how much you deploy the rit and accel in the preceding bar.

The middle section needs practicing indeed :/ And I know the doppio moviemento is slow, I can play it faster, it's just I like it that way, the background music sounds sort of like an string ensemble behind it (that's the effect I'm trying to get at least)
thanks for the feedback

[francoisfj]

I only listened to the first and last links you posted, and I like the last link. I also like the image you used in your YouTube video. If you intentionally selected the image, not just random, I think I understand where you are going with this piece. Are you also going to play Op 48 No 2? I've been always wondering why Chopin grouped those nocturnes - if he had any intention. So I've been trying to play both (or three) together last one year to see if I find any new inspiration. I just thought the way you played No 1 starts making sense to me, when No 2 comes after. Anyway, I am not a teacher, not an academic, not an expert, so am just throwing my impression.

Thank you Yes I intentionally selected the image, it sets a good mood for this nocturne I think!
Yes I learned the op 48 no 2 as well, I've heard this argument before too, I agree they might be connected

[quantum]

Regarding tempo, it is neither too slow or too fast.  There is no black and white matter of correctness here.  What matters is what the musician does with their chosen tempo, and whether that tempo best suits their own vision.  Not everyone will agree on tempo, but as long as the chosen one evokes what the musician is choosing to say they are moving in the right direction.  I would even argue that evoking feelings of unease and disagreement among some critics is better then evoking indifference, as the main goal of drawing out thoughts and emotions of the listener - whatever they may be - has been achieved.  One does not have any control over the listeners thoughts, but one does have the ability to shape music in a way that evokes such thought. 

IMO, what the piece needs most at this time is a sense of organization of ideas.  You have got the "words" learned, now take those words and make sentences and paragraphs to tell a story.  Remember to breathe between sentences, or all your ideas will sound like a huge run-on sentence.  Due to the rather constant beating and regularity of the accompaniment, it is easy to fall into an overly monotone groove.  It is part of the challenge of the piece to remain flexible and expressive with this style of accompaniment. 

Many of those widely spaced chords make it difficult to maintain legato pedaling.  However, one needs to realize that the manner in which the music is notated is not the manner in which it sounds or is performed.  I've said this many times before: the score's purpose is to be descriptive not prescriptive.  Don't take the note values literally, especially in the chorale section where pedaling is particularly exposed.  Some notes are more important than others.  Just because you have 6 notes of a chord labeled as a half-note, doesn't mean they are all sounding for equal duration.  Use a combination of voicing, finger pedaling, and sustain pedaling to give the illusion of legato. 

[mjames]

Regarding tempo, it is neither too slow or too fast.  There is no black and white matter of correctness here.  What matters is what the musician does with their chosen tempo, and whether that tempo best suits their own vision.  Not everyone will agree on tempo, but as long as the chosen one evokes what the musician is choosing to say they are moving in the right direction.  I would even argue that evoking feelings of unease and disagreement among some critics is better then evoking indifference, as the main goal of drawing out thoughts and emotions of the listener - whatever they may be - has been achieved.  One does not have any control over the listeners thoughts, but one does have the ability to shape music in a way that evokes such thought. 

IMO, what the piece needs most at this time is a sense of organization of ideas.  You have got the "words" learned, now take those words and make sentences and paragraphs to tell a story.  Remember to breathe between sentences, or all your ideas will sound like a huge run-on sentence.  Due to the rather constant beating and regularity of the accompaniment, it is easy to fall into an overly monotone groove.  It is part of the challenge of the piece to remain flexible and expressive with this style of accompaniment. 

Many of those widely spaced chords make it difficult to maintain legato pedaling.  However, one needs to realize that the manner in which the music is notated is not the manner in which it sounds or is performed.  I've said this many times before: the score's purpose is to be descriptive not prescriptive.  Don't take the note values literally, especially in the chorale section where pedaling is particularly exposed.  Some notes are more important than others.  Just because you have 6 notes of a chord labeled as a half-note, doesn't mean they are all sounding for equal duration.  Use a combination of voicing, finger pedaling, and sustain pedaling to give the illusion of legato. 

Well said! This is some awesome advice.