Heavy action on a Sauter -- what to do?

[hermerik]

Hey folks!

First time on this forum. I have a Sauter Delta; great sound and touch ; but when I started to practice faster pieces, like Chopin etudes or Beethoven variations I noticed that I got tired in my arms. This is an old injury and I am afraid to wake it up again. The action is rather heavy (I think my tech measured 56 gram last time; or between 55-60gram). The grand is almost new; when I tried  it I did not quite play as fast -- stupidly enough. Of course I should have done that; then I would probably have notice the somewhat heavy action. It cost me 40K$ so I am pretty much broke now..  -- but I love the sound and touch (apart from heavyness).

Now -- is it something one can do about lightning the action? Taking out lead? I do not want to make it slower by adding lead..

I would be very thankful for advise/discussions about this.

Best regards,
Hermerik

[hfmadopter]

Really you need to speak with a good tech to find out what can be done. 55 grams around middle register isn't really all that heavy . For instance , to me 53 feels nice which is what my grand is at. It used to be lighter and the keys felt as if they wanted to fall away under my fingers. And if your practice piano key weight is far from normal then it its difficult to adjust to other pianos , especially heavy ones when yours is real light.. Just my take on it though.

[silverwoodpianos]

Piano actions work on a series of hinged parts.  The pins that hold the hinges in place are half the diameter of a ball point pen refill or less. These pins are surrounded by a felt bushing. When the bushings are too tight the excessive friction creates heat and that heat expands the pin so the friction gets even worse.

The key is this statement from the OP;

.......but when I started to practice faster pieces, like Chopin etudes or Beethoven variations I noticed that I got tired in my arms.

First deal with this part;

Now -- is it something one can do about lightning the action? Taking out lead? I do not want to make it slower by adding lead..
I would be very thankful for advise/discussions about this.
 

With any mechanism it is always best to setup the action by completely regulating the action/keyboard component and release all of the friction.
Then take some measurements to see what is there. After that modifications take place if required.

[hermerik]

Hello and thanks for your replies!

I was away for some time; yes I have spoken to a tech. And he said he will first look at the friction at the hinges. Possibly he also said that one could sand off the hammers felt to get lighter action(!) but felt has almost no weight, no? I bit surprising to me.

I was grown up with a Bechstein with very light action. This was actually difficult bc every time a came to the teacher it was harder to play at her heavier piano. Almost all pianos I played were heavier. Now, this Sauter I have is on the heavy side; but maybe these adjustments will lighten it up sufficiently.

Do you have any experiences with taking out led from the action? According to a tech it is possible but a little risky.

[withindale]

Have you contacted the dealer and Sauter, especially Sauter, about this? It would make sense to do that before you start modifying a $40k instrument.

Also can you feel any difference in hammer weight between the bass and treble through the keys?

[indianajo]

I've got one sticky key on my Steinway console that only sticks in dry winter weather. Jan Girardot of another forum suggesting using an "easing" tool to loosen up the felt on the pivot. This is a sort of expander. There is also squirt powdered teflon Steve's piano supply is selling for the same point.  This would be expensive, as every hammer would have to be taken off.  
I wouldn't start with the lead particularly.  People say new pianos loosen up with playing- I've never owned a new grand so I don't know. Your injury may prevent your going through this break in process. 
My new 82 Sohmer 39" console was light as a feather off the showroom floor. That and tone better than Steinway and Everett 44, were why I bought it. The Steinway was heavy, good for piano pros but I'm a dedicated amateur.  I'm physically unsuited to grands generally, the heavy action wears me out, both muscles which can be built up, and joints and tendons which cannot be built up. A 50 year old Baldwin grand in the next county wears me out in half an hour.  I went to the surgeon for a shoulder rotator cuff injury this spring, and the exercises he prescribed are making my elbows sore at night! There is nothing you can do if your joints and tendons are built too lightly. Most successful pianists, if you have noticed, are northern European or sometimes African background with huge beefy hands, long fingers. and huge wrists and forearms.  
But anyway, I play light action consoles, some pieces lasting over an hour. Nineteen Fifties and Sixties consoles are down to about $200 now if you buy them from an owner out of tune for cash right before the carpet man comes, or $600 from a dealer working out of a flea market.  Brands to look for are Baldwin Acrosonic, Sohmer, Wurlitzer, Mason & Hamlin, Chickering, Everett, Steinway 1940-?.  Wurlitzer bargain line and Baldwin Hamilton had cost cutter tricks like treble string so short they don't go past the hammers, and fewer dampers than normal, so don't buy one of those - the actions have cost cutting tricks in them, too.  Don't buy one made out of the USA either, the old names are used to sell bargain cost cutter pianos by the importers.     Be sure to check speed of repetition of some keys with alternating fingers, the match of tone between two string and three string notes, whether the top octave go "ping" (good) or "plonk" (cheap), the tone of the bass notes, cracks in the metal plate or back,no rusted strings,no mouse eaten felt. Steinway makes some good consoles after the 1940's ones, but the newer ones are heavy and all tend to be worn out due to school use.  I detest Yamahas because of the boring bass sound, and my friend's 2009 Pearl River console has  a manufacturer's defect that breaks a string over and over and the Houston  dealer won't repair it for free because he is ex military and moved around a lot.  I've liked a seventies Kawai console, but that North Carolina factory was closed long ago. I haven't played the newer ones.  
As far as filing down the hammer felt and shortning the throw, that sounds very expensive.  Just regulating the hammer felt to cut force strikes me as stupid as some of the ideas the Gist Piano tech had about fixing my 1982 Sohmer.  Tuners that have time to talk to you are not, IMHO, the ones that know what they are doing. Mr. Silverwood, by constast, has always said sensible things on here. he and I agree on reducing the friction being the first thing to do.  

[withindale]

Quote of the day:

Most successful pianists, if you have noticed, are northern European or sometimes African background with huge beefy hands, long fingers. and huge wrists and forearms. 

[8_octaves]

Quote of the day:

Most successful pianists, if you have noticed, are northern European or sometimes African background with huge beefy hands, long fingers. and huge wrists and forearms. 

Yes, Indianajo makes my day, too   

and I just started to think about J. Hofmann, A. Essipow (Yesipoff), Chopin, Ashkenazy and others as being either from Iceland or from Uganda.. - but they all didn't / don't have huge beefy hands.

But then I thought about Godowsky: He could be "the man", since he was of Lithuanian origin, but it's said he didn't have huge hands  ...

I then thought vice versa: Andre Watts is, from his father's side, I think, of African origin, but his hands don't seem to be extraordinarily beefy.. - but perhaps they are average-sized or, at least, big. But he isn't from Northern Europe 

As isn't Claudio Arrau, who seemingly had clumsy-looking hands, like bears' paws, but he was from Chile...

Cordially, 8_octaves! 

[hardy_practice]

If it's not a fault in manufacture the only recourse is lightening the hammers (by sanding, as your tech said).  You'll lose tone though.  

[indianajo]

My wrists are 8.5 cm diameter, and my palms at the base of the thumb are 11.5.  Try that on for size.  Both my Mother and her brother broke their ankles off about 6" above the foot, and their family kept a cow growing up for the protein and vitamins.  I don't dare buy a chainsaw, the kickback would probably break my wrists right off.  Compared to us Native Americans (my frame anyway), all Europeans look like bears in the wrist and ankle department.  That includes women. There is more variation in African body types, but the ones imported here by the slave traders were the big ones suitable for field work, from the Nigerian coast.  Native-Am's wore out as field workers; look at the history of the sugar plantations before the slave trade got in gear.   The Carribean island population was practically exterminated on the plantations, and replaced.
And I'm in shape after winter of practice; I can get through Pictures at an Exhibition straight through- on my featherweight consoles.  The 105 lb president of the AGO here, her hands are about a third bigger than mine, and her arms are a lot longer, too.  I outweigh her by 60 lb, but is all ballast around the middle, which doesnt count on piano.  Even on my lightweight 41 Steinway, the tendonitis is causing me to take pain pills (NSAID) prescribed by the orthopedic surgeon.  No defects show on the x-ray it is just inflammation from use.  I had to pick this hobby, but singing bores me, and violin gets on my nerves.    

[hardy_practice]

Your technique may need looking at.  Get rid of the Steinway.

[silverwoodpianos]

If it's not a fault in manufacture the only recourse is lightening the hammers (by sanding, as your tech said).  You'll lose tone though.  

Hammer felt does not weigh enough to make a difference.

[hardy_practice]

I've just had mine re-shaped and it sure is lighter.  What else could make one action heavier than another if they're both friction free (relatively) and have the same balance pin to key-end ratio?

'Hammer weight is the primary element in the play weight. Secondary to the hammer weight is the action ratio,'  from: https://www.boddinpianoservice.be/PTDenglish.htm

Now if you're saying replace the shanks as well, then I think we agree. 

[hermerik]

Thanks for replies again! Yes I have contacted the dealer and the manufacturer. Manufacturer (Sauter himself) said the downright should be around 50 grams. Mine seems heavier (about 56g) so there seem to   be friction. However this problem not the full truth. Hammersmith seems very relevant; since that would decrease the moment of inertia, a parameter not detectable from the downweight.  Well, I will see; dealer proposes loosening friction and then possibly re shape the hammers (the felt;  but yes it sounds as if felt is too light to make a y big difference).

 Did you (last reply ) have only the felt re shaped? And that did make a the whole difference? If so I guess I can have the problem solved soon...

Best,
Hermerik from Sweden

[hardy_practice]

To be honest I'd post the problem in the technicians section of pianoworld.  It may only confuse you but they have a number of very experienced techs there including Mr Silverwood.  Having only felt removed (for tone reasons) did lighten up my action.  To get the result you really want you may need lighter shanks too.

[silverwoodpianos]

I've just had mine re-shaped and it sure is lighter.  What else could make one action heavier than another if they're both friction free (relatively) and have the same balance pin to key-end ratio?

It is never only hammer felt. Usually shaping hammer sets to remove usage lines or prior to voicing procedures is inclusive of other tasks such as hammer mating to strings and knuckle brushing, shaping, lubrication.
 That can change the performance of an action in a considerable way.

When shaping hammer sets to remove usage lines in the strike point for example, this removes less than a gram of felt.

Also previous to doing any work at all on a grand action the first task is to properly bed the key frame as the bedding can change from summer to winter and that can at times produce altered tonal qualities.
  
Regarding this part here;

It may only confuse you but they have a number of very experienced techs there including Mr Silverwood.

I will not appear on PW any longer as I have been awarded a permanent ban by the owner. This was, as far as I can understand the message received directly from the owner, for offering critique and observations about the quality of content or lack thereof on the PW tech forum.

[hermerik]

Thanks Yes I then go on asking the question at the tech forum.

[hermerik]

Actually I do not see any tech forum here....

[hardy_practice]

I will not appear on PW any longer as I have been awarded a permanent ban by the owner. This was, as far as I can understand the message received directly from the owner, for offering critique and observations about the quality of content or lack thereof on the PW tech forum.

Really sorry to hear that Dan, you're one of the good guys!

@hermerik I sent you a private message.

[silverwoodpianos]

Doesn't matter PW is not important enough to make a difference in anyone's life....

If a member cannot offer opinions of forum content without retribution of a personal nature then the place has ceased to be a forum. 

A topic for another day, not this thread.

[silverwoodpianos]

Hermerik

I just read your new thread over on PW. I am glad not to be involved there any longer.

  I doubt any of the posters have even noticed that you have a brand new 40k Sauter. Not one of them has seen the instrument in question but several of them have a desire to reverse engineer the action/keyboard.

4 or 5 leads in the front of the keys. Install a touch rail. Stanwood touch design.

This is previous to completing any on-site inspection/ evaluation of the action/keyboard.

 This is not some Asian built grand or a NY Steinway for goodness sakes.

This is a German built instrument. Being brand new, action centers are going to be a bit on the tight side and the action/keyboard needs to be exercised to “loosen up a bit”

A good technician that actually comprehends these symptoms can assist in releasing the built in friction or the friction increases, if there are any, up as you play it in.

Two important things;

You are coming from an older upright where the action and keyboard parts were mostly dried out and worn out. That will make the touch very light and effortless.

You are playing a brand new instrument and as I mentioned things will be on the tight side. The technician will assist with that.

Best of luck,

[hermerik]

Hello again folks,

I posted on PW since I did not see a tech forum here. Well, I am happy to continue here too.
I played a bechstein grand very light, yes it is kind of  worn out  now.
The manufacturer said it takes about 2-3 years to "burn it in" (I mean the new Sauter grand). So I try to cope with it.
A tech said he could use lubricant and loosen the friction. Will try that first.
Then possibly shaping off hammers.

Measured 56g downweight and 28g upweight (dampers depressed).

Thanks for all advise so far! 

[silverwoodpianos]

My mistake, I though you were playing an older upright. I will leave the other posting without editing so the thread makes sense.

[pianolive]

Hej,
Det är inget fel på din flygel och Sauter kan ha rätt om fuktigheten, var bor du i Sverige?
Du borde spela varje dag några månader, kanske ett halvår och då kan du kalla in en tekniker om du fortfarande tycker att flygeln känns tung. Då kan det mycket väl hända att spelvikten har sjunkit till 50 gram. Det är bara löjligt att börja tala om att slipa av hammar filten.
Det finns konsertflyglar med mycket högre spelvikt. Känslan av om en flygel är lättspelat eller ej har inget eller mycket lite med spelvikten att göra. Den känslan beror på mekanik konstruktionen.
Jag är övertygat om att du helt enkelt behöver spela in både dig själv och flygeln. Då kan man börja laborera med finjusteringar för att anpassa den till din spelstil.
Det är en mycket fin flygel du har och den en ljusår från en gammal Bechstein. Det tar tid att spela in en sådan flygel, men då kommer den att skänka dig stor glädje!

[withindale]

Agree with Pianolive but I'd check the piano. I'm interested as I had a similar problem myself except the instrument was 100 years old. Came across these words last night in John Meffren's book on playing the piano, 'The standard dip is about 1cm or 3/8". If, on your piano, it is greater than that, you will find it heavy and therefore tiring to play, particularly at speed.'

It may be possible to reduce key dip by 0.5 mm - 1 mm or more just by putting extra punchings (washers) under the key cushion. It all depends on the depth of aftertouch. The test is easy. Insert some thicknesses of card above the cushion until playing of the note is affected. Installation is a job for a technician who will not only have the punchings but also know what to look out for.

[hermerik]

Hej,
Det är inget fel på din flygel och Sauter kan ha rätt om fuktigheten, var bor du i Sverige?
Du borde spela varje dag några månader, kanske ett halvår och då kan du kalla in en tekniker om du fortfarande tycker att flygeln känns tung. Då kan det mycket väl hända att spelvikten har sjunkit till 50 gram. Det är bara löjligt att börja tala om att slipa av hammar filten.
Det finns konsertflyglar med mycket högre spelvikt. Känslan av om en flygel är lättspelat eller ej har inget eller mycket lite med spelvikten att göra. Den känslan beror på mekanik konstruktionen.
Jag är övertygat om att du helt enkelt behöver spela in både dig själv och flygeln. Då kan man börja laborera med finjusteringar för att anpassa den till din spelstil.
Det är en mycket fin flygel du har och den en ljusår från en gammal Bechstein. Det tar tid att spela in en sådan flygel, men då kommer den att skänka dig stor glädje!

Hej, jag skickade dig ett personligt meddelande.

Jag har köpte flygeln förra året i juni. Har två småbarn, så jag har ju inte hunnit spela varje dag; periodvis spelar jag kanske 1 timme om dagen, men det är bara ett para dagar i sträck; sedan tar familjelivet över. I genomsnitt kanske 10min/dag; högst. Svårt att säga. Oftast spelar jag knappt något alls eftersom jag inte hinner/orkar.

Sorry, this is in swedish; english version: I bought the grand i june last year. Have not practiced so much yet bc of small children; but still I touch the piano almost every day  (in average maybe 10min/day). Some days over one hour; but that is when the children are out. That is very uncommon. Most days I do not play at all.

Well, I still think the grand is too heavy. Manufacturer says it takes 2-3 years to "burn in". I do not know, but I do have some feeling it will not get much lighter. So I do not know what to do.,

My tech does not want to touch it bc it is too expensive and he has not so much experience with Sauter and; well warranty and all that can be jeopardized... The one I bought it from could come up form Germany later in the spring; but it is gonna cost money (lots..) Such a mess this is.

Maybe I go to Copenhagen and try a Bechstein see if I can trade it in -- who knows.. 

[hardy_practice]

Unfortunately I think you are right.  Pianos are what they are - there's some scope for altering the action a little but it's designed as it is designed.  You're wishing to put little wheels on a 4X4!

[withindale]

You're wishing to put little wheels on a 4X4!

Why not check the tyre pressure before you do that - what is the key dip on your Sauter? (Please ask if you need advice on measuring it).

Triggered by your questions, I added some 0.75 mm punchings to front pins in the fifth octave of my Ibach last night. It improved repetition and playability. Key dip is now about 9.5 mm.

Can anyone explain why such a small change could make the difference between wanting to play and not?

[pianolive]

Quote:"Hej, jag skickade dig ett personligt meddelande"

Du har fått svar.

[hermerik]

Quote:"Hej, jag skickade dig ett personligt meddelande"

Du har fått svar.

Tack för det -- nu har du ett meddelande också! :-)

Well, lets see what can be done.. I need to find another tech it seems, someone who has the experience with Sauter and do not live too far away..

I think the "dip" seems around 10,5mm.

Best
Hermerik

[hardy_practice]

Triggered by your questions, I added some 0.75 mm punchings to front pins in the fifth octave of my Ibach last night. It improved repetition and playability. Key dip is now about 9.5 mm.

Can anyone explain why such a small change could make the difference between wanting to play and not?

I changed all my punchings to thicker ones on one of my pianos.  It became far more responsive but certainly felt heavier.

[withindale]

I changed all my punchings to thicker ones on one of my pianos.  It became far more responsive but certainly felt heavier.

Yes, far more responsive. Interesting that it felt heavier. Obviously it's not but I'd certainly agree the keys feel different as well as more responsive.

The are some complex interactions between player and instrument going on here. I suppose that's why 10 mm key dip can feel a world apart from 10.5 mm.

Good luck, Hermerik.

[withindale]

As a footnote, I instigated what became an interesting discussion on Pianoworld about aftertouch and key dip on grand pianos.

Paradoxically too little aftertouch can make the action tiring to play and slow down repetition, as can too much. With too little aftertouch, a pianist may continue to press into the cushion as escapement feels incomplete.

[hermerik]

Hey folks,

I am back again! Just want to report that i have used lubricants and powder (teflon based stuff both)
And i got the downweight down to 50-52 grams. A bit more in the bass. Hence 5 grams lighter! Before it was around 56grams. Just by working with friction. I found it very interesting. The grand does nor feel particularly light but certainly it feels (much) better.

I did nor yet work with the capstans, and probably the pin which hits the knuckle can still be adjusted. I will get a tech continuing soon i hope. 

Actually, the piano changez with time in tone also. I tried other brands on a german tour (another thread); it was fun and probably an important experience (bechstein, steinway,  grotrian, bösendorfer, steingraeber); i must say to discover steingraeber was an experience. However, I was positively surprised when i came home and played my Sauter again.

Thank you for all advise! In particular a special thank to pianolive with whom i had many discussions on this subject.

Best regards
Hermerik

[sandracb]

Sorry haven't had time to read all the replies, but just wanted to toss in my personal experience....

56g downweight isn't heavy, IMO. My Kawai upright measures at 56g and I actually find it quite light feeling. My Kawai RX-2 is even heavier than my upright, and after a few days playing I too don't even notice. A piano has to be probably 65gms+ for me to find it too heavy.

I agree with previous posters that, it might be technique that's the issue. I have been working REALLY hard on fixing a lifetime of a bad habit of tensing my wrists when I play difficult/fast pieces - been doing it all my life. Turns out that tenseness is not only limiting my speed, but also to blame for pain/fatigue in my forearms/wrists. I think I'm really getting the idea this week, even though its not consistent, as when I'm able to keep relaxed even in difficult/fast passages, I can not only play faster but I can play so much longer with zero pain or fatigue.

So I agree with others who say, re-examine your technique before shredding your piano.