Winter Wind Etude

[Greentea028]

hey im new here, im a 11th grader at an art school majoring in piano. I doubt im as good as any of you guys here judging by the previous forums talking about learning a chopin scherzo (and memorizing it) in 15 hours. But, i need some help.

well, i've played the winter wind etude for about 3 months now, i have it memorized and everything. my fingering is fine, and i slow practice as needed. My problem is getting the piece faster. I've finished it in 4 minutes and on good days sometimes a little less, but i heard some professional play it on cd and that person did it in just over 3 minutes .

Im performing at this prism concert in 2 days, and i need some practicing tips 

thank you,
steven

[Bob]

Slightly off topic here.  Sorry.  But...

What is the op. # and all that for the Winter Wind?  Chopin Etude Op. ?? No.   What key is it in?

Thanks!

[Greentea028]

op 25 no 11 =)

[Bob]

Ah, thanks for the extremely quick answer.

Can you tell me more about the piece?  Is it cool? 

My teacher almost had me play it a long time ago, so I've wondered about it a few times.

I wouldn't worry about changing things if you've got a performance in two days.  There's not enough time to change things.  "You're doing a great job!  Just go out there and have fun!"

I would guess you're playing it as fast as you're able to.  It will just take time to develop the technique necessary to play it faster.  There are plenty of threads about raising speed on things.  Or ask me, although I posted on this somewhere on the pf site....  It just takes a lot of time and effort.  You may have done all you can with this piece for now.

[Greentea028]

thanks man. I dont know how well you play, but judging by your response to me, im going to assume you are at least my caliber or greater.

winter wind is like the counterpart for the revolutionary etude,except it requires more stamina. The right hand really gets killed after long hours of practice. If you are real good about practicing slowly and fingering, it shouldnt be a problem. Learning all the notes should be a breeze, and there's no real complex rhythm to it, but the toughest thing about the piece has to be the stamina. This piece requires a ridiculous amount of stamina, and i only did it by practicing over and over again. 

People tell me to stop practicing after your arms tire to avoid injury, but i was stubborn and practiced nonetheless.  after a couple weeks, my stamina increased greatly and playing the piece over and over got less painstaking.

I think its a very very impressive piece and you should give it a shot. Im in the process of getting it faster through slow practicing, but its a really boring process. If you ever do perform this piece, make sure you get your left hand down since its the melody, no one can really hear the right hand due to the chromatics and the speed.

what piece did you end up learning?


edit: i thought you were a student in their teens like me, but im guessing not because your profile says you've posted alot. Well, if i seemed like im trying to teach you im sorry haha, i thought you were a kid

[jlh]

If you're performing it in 2 days, don't try to increase the tempo.  Focus on articulation in the right hand and the melody in the left hand.  For every time you play it at performance tempo, play it 2 times at a slow tempo.  I'd much rather listen to a well executed and musical 4 minute performance than a 3 minute performance that is labored and poorly executed solely for the purpose of speed.

[chromatickler]

but i heard some professional play it on cd and that person did it in just over 3 minutes .

Thou ought not imitate Da Legendary GAV. 

[Bob]

I am like a teenage student.... who's lived another ten years!

My teacher was looking for a piece for me after I had played the Rev. Etude.  It's funny you mention that.

I agree about the stamina/endurance thing.  I think you have to push things a little and then let your body heal up stronger.

[JK]

Don't worry about how long it takes you to play it or about how fast you can play it, as long as what you play is musical and makes sense and is clean and tidy then it doesn't matter, as long as you don't play it obviously under tempo. Don't worry about how fast proffessional pianists like Perrahia and Pollinni play, they have been playing these etudes for years and are extremly experienced. I would also guard against playing this piece at fast tempos with the metronome, this can actually make you rush, and thats the one thing you want to avoid in this piece. I've found that the best thing to do in this piece is take time in sections where the right hand is more expressive, such as the bit just after the 4 bars of left hand semiquavers where the right hand is playing in a flat, and then to move it on in the chromatic descending passages that are so abundent in this piece. And remeber the right hand is not too important, after all the tune is in the left hand. As for trying to speed it up two days before a concert, I agree with everyone who has said that you shouldn't try, it would most probably do more harm than good, and you have probably settled into a good tempo now, plus you'll probably play a bit faster anyway due to nerves.

[Motrax]

If you aren't doing so already, relax your forearms and shoulders. Concentrate a lot on where you're tense, because your exhaustion and pains may be due to uneccesary stress.  This will also help you naturally increase the speed without any loss of articulation. If you have a mirror of some sort near your piano, watch yourself closely to make sure your shoulders aren't tight.  I also would make sure my elbows are bent out, though some pianists would argue otherwise.

If you can get a copy of Richter playing this etude (it's a video, it's floating around on the internet somewhere, copied from a documentary about him called The Enigma), it's very good to watch how relaxed he is. Although Richter misses a few notes, you'll notice a complete lack of tension in his wrists and fingers, and his arms move freely and easily.

Your mentality of the piece might also be hurting things a little bit - once you can play without tension, you'll realize that it's really not such a difficult work to play nicely, which will in turn make you even more relaxed and able to play better.

Are there any specific sections (or measure numbers) you are especially having trouble with, speed-wise or articulation-wise (or both)?

In any event, don't play faster than you are capable - 4 minutes is just fine if you give a musical performance of it. Chopin's etudes are interesting in that many, including this one, become very different pieces depending on the chosen tempi.  This gives you a good deal of liberty to play relatively slowly compared to professional recordings you hear.

Good luck! 

[Alde]

Practice tips:

1 - rhythms
2 - transposing passages into different keys
3 - different articulations

Consult the Cortot edition for more suggestions.

[ted]

I always enjoy playing this one and I prefer interpretations which breathe, rather than the hell-for-leather virtuoso rush drowned in pedal we so often hear. It contains many beautiful chord changes and many pianists ignore these moments in their haste to cut a couple of seconds off the world record time.

I cannot give you much advice because, as with all the classical music I play, I do it all wrong physically - that's a fact I have learned from forums - reliance on finger strokes, no understanding of legato or weight transfer. It's all right for me because I'm too old to change, and anyhow, I've grown so accustomed to the clear sound my own faulty technique produces that I prefer it to the "correct" sound.

One thing though - comparisons with the weather, "Winter Wind", strike me as stupidly twee. In this study the universe falls apart at the seams and the skeletons win the game. It isn't somebody entertaining Auntie and the parson at afternoon tea; it speaks of grosser things.

[argerich_smitten]

First off (and this goes to many people, not just you), it's not the best idea to ask for help or practice methods to alter your performance of a piece 2 days before you have to perform it.  If you try to alter it too much in a small amount of time, you will probably lose performance consistency.

     As already stated, it is very important to stay as relaxed as possible (this is true for almost every piece you play, whether it's an etude, a technically challanging passing in a huge piece, or something slower like a chopin nocturne).  To play a chopin etude well, you need to understand the technical problem it addresses.  This etude is mosly about rotation of the wrist, though if you are trying to do it in three minutes, an observer would have a difficult time noticing.  The faster it goes, the smaller the rotation movement will become, until it become almost non-existent (but not completely!).  If you are thinking about the technical challenge in this way, playing the piece will take less effort, and you will be able to relax more easily.  As Arrau said (I think it was him at least) "It's easy; it's just this *here he shakes his wrist back and forth*."
     If you haven't been thinking of the etude in this manner, I would go to the piano, and start off from that first high 'f' in the right hand, playing very slowly with exagerated rotation to get a good idea of what this rotation will feel like.  Once you are comfortable with the idea, speed up and make the motion less grandiose.   (Note that the exagerated practice at the very start is just to aquaint you with rotational motion of the wrist, it is not the exact same motion you will use when playing up to speed.  I'm sure you already knew or have read somewhere on this forum that you shouldn't practice a piece slowly like you would play it slowly if your intent is to play it quickly.  Practice the way you would play the piece quickly, but in slow motion)
    If you already have been thinking of the piece in this way, fantastic; your understanding of the technical problem should aid your performance greatly.  The second thing I would say is learn the left hand really well.  Many pianists are so focused on a technical difficulty in the right hand that they overlook the left, which in fact is the opposite thing that should be done (though intense practice on the technical difficulty is always a good idea).  The left hand is the anchor that holds everything together. 

this was a little long-winded... I hope this helps

[Greentea028]

Thanks everyone, i read all the suggestions and implemented them into my practicing.

I play this piece nearly perfectly, fingering and everything at home. But, the piano that i had to play on has terrible action for a piece of great speed. I ended up doing medicore, and like some of you suggested, i kept the left hand melody solid. The right hand i had to fake through a couple of times but it was so dissonant that the general public could not tell. Thanks for the help everyone.

This experience however taught me a lesson. Chopin etudes are pieces that can only be perfected through time, and 3 months time is not enough. Even though i play it nearly perfect at home, i am not yet at the level where i can play under pressure.

It could just be the piano, because i haven't performed this piece in any other pianos besides the pianos at these schools and the piano at my house. Those pianos were fine.  It's not because i have a weak piano. I have a petrof, five foot 9. Its a very strong piano with great action. Do you think i was just nervous? i rarely ever get nervous for a performance. Tonight's performance was packed.

anyways, i loved reading your replies
keep them coming =)

[jlh]

  I'm sure you already knew or have read somewhere on this forum that you shouldn't practice a piece slowly like you would play it slowly if your intent is to play it quickly.  Practice the way you would play the piece quickly, but in slow motion)
   

One of my teachers once described practicing a fast piece slowly as being analogeous to the slow-motion instant replays of televised sports.  Everything shown in the replays is exactly the same in every way as the full speed version -- only slowed down so we can see details.  In other words, when you practice something slowly, everything should feel and sound the same as you'd play it fast.  The position and movement of your hands, the dynamics you use, momentum, articulation... everything.