Your views on Christianity?

[timothy42b]

.

As you may have guessed, I have debated countless atheists on this subject. The one theme I have encountered with all of them is that they are angry.

On the one hand, your simple, naïve, and completely unexamined (and in many areas completely misguided) faith is probably a great comfort to you.  I would never want to discourage that.

On the other hand, you live in your own head, making your own assumptions, and absolutely refusing to let any real information in.

You have never listened to an atheist.  You think you have, because you have preached to them.  But preaching is not listening or communicating.  They will tell you they are not angry, but you will never listen to them, treat them honestly, relate to them in any fashion, because you have already decided on the basis of zero data what they are, what they feel, how they are motivated. 

Because of this, none of them will ever take you seriously, and none of your preaching and testimony will ever have ANY impact.

If you were serious about saving them, you'd have to treat them like people.  But you can't, and you won't.

I know a lot of atheists, despite not being one myself, and I have yet to run into a single one of your mythical angry atheists.  I'm sure there are some.  But they are not the norm.  The fact that this has not occurred to you GREATLY diminishes your own credibility. 
 

[outin]

Please remember, Thal, that the country you live in was founded by devout Christians. If it were not for Christians, you would probably be living in a communist country like China, which (now what Christianity is being rejected) is what we are heading for more and more every day.

Honestly if I had to choose between communist China or a state of Christian fundamentalists, I'd take the former any day!

Btw. it's not what religious people say that makes me angry, only the things they do.

Now why did *I* click on this thread...

[timothy42b]

The Bible, however, is something that CAN be proven scientifically. If anyone has ANYTHING against the Bible, I would be more than happy to discuss it with you. Just keep in mind, however, that we can only have that kind of discussion when you remember that 1) you are offended by what the Bible says, and 2) that Christianity is not a religion, rather it is simply having a relationship with God.

The majority of Christians have a different understanding of the Bible than you.  (you really need to get out more!)  Could you have a discussion with them?  They don't seem to be offended by what the Bible says, they just interpret it a bit differently. 

[adodd81802]

Well that escalated quickly.

I am an Athiest, in that I don't believe in god, not that I dismiss religions. My issue with religions in general is that they're so open to interpretation that they create extremists, fanatics, those that genuinely believe they're doing "gods" work. They too well tell you they've got a relationship with GOD and where does that get them? Shooting schools, blowing people up, children used as pawns telling you it's Gods will or God told them to do it.

Are these not also sinners WITH God?

My issue with the bible is it offers answers that simply are not true, and in our present world barely even relevant, and then leaves people passing inaccurate information suppressed by - again how they've wrongly interpreted the words in the book.

It seems often used as a comfort blanket for those who want to be in control, that if you're good, you go to heaven, that if you prey you will get answers, it creates a plague like mindset that people wish to infect others with. You already admitted you were trying to convince someone of your believes, of which if you tried to do so with somebody who (and rightly so) relies on scientific facts and reasoning when you have further admitted God is something you can not scientifically prove, you are always going to disagree.

Thal's statement was not inaccurate. Take away religious nutters and you will have a better place because the plague of religion forced upon the gullible and weak minded creates unstable, human beings.

[timothy42b]

Honestly if I had to choose between communist China or a state of Christian fundamentalists, I'd take the former any day!

Mr. Outin,
you are from Finland, pencilart is from the US I think.

In the US there is a branch of Christianity that has confused patriotism, capitalism and nationalism principles with religious ones, despite the fact they are often completely opposite.

The US is just weird this way.   

[outin]

Mr. Outin,
you are from Finland, pencilart is from the US I think.

In the US there is a branch of Christianity that has confused patriotism, capitalism and nationalism principles with religious ones, despite the fact they are often completely opposite.

The US is just weird this way.   

The US is weird in many ways and I have had the opportunity to experience some of them myself.

But I suspect in any state that was run on strict religious principles I might soon find myself in jail or worse...in a socialist state I'd be just fine

[pencilart3]

@Tim you say I never listen to Atheists, and yet Atheists never listen to me either. You will probably say "That's because they are right and you are wrong, so they are right to not listen to you" but I just don't agree. OK? Maybe I just haven't been convinced.

@Adodd blowing people up and shooting people are CLEALY condemned in the Bible. Just look at the 6th commandment. You apparently haven't read the book once. That's just the problem with labeling my religion as "Christianity". So many people "Profess to be Christians" (President Obama, Justin Bieber) that you just can't label me as a "Christian" and then attack everyone else who uses that name, saying I am the same!

@Outi you believe that the less rules the better, because then we have less people breaking them? Why do we have rules at all then? Why not just get rid of rules or laws?

And I'm still waiting to discuss those proteins....

[timothy42b]

@Tim you say I never listen to Atheists, and yet Atheists never listen to me either. You will probably say "That's because they are right and you are wrong, so they are right to not listen to you" but I just don't agree. OK? Maybe I just haven't been convinced.

But pencilart,
you don't listen to atheists, and you don't listen to your fellow Christians like myself.  No, I wouldn't say that, and had you actually read any of my posts instead of deciding what I must think you would know that.  Atheists don't listen to you because it is clear from the onset you don't want a conversation, you're just going to preach at them.  Nobody likes that.  It has nothing to do with being right or wrong. 

@Adodd blowing people up and shooting people are CLEALY condemned in the Bible. Just look at the 6th commandment. You apparently haven't read the book once.

Are they really condemned?  The OT is full of the Lord ordering the chosen people to conquer lands and kill every man, woman, innocent child, and sometimes all the livestock.  Uh, pencil, have you read Joshua?  Didn't think so.  Well, read Joshua, and then read the same conquest repeated in Judges.  Yes, this is one of a number of examples where the redactors included the same story twice, but told a bit differently.  In this case, a lot differently (and the archaeological record supports the events in Judges somewhat, and disproves those in Joshua.) 

And I'm still waiting to discuss those proteins

pencilart, here you go again not listening to either atheists or your fellow Christians.  The vast majority of Christians do not dispute evolution.  It is only a tiny fringe element in the evangelical fundamentalist wing that do, and they are held in amused sad disdain by most Christians for this. 

Now here is a question for you to think about and maybe answer.  I have observed in many debates with creationists that none of them (and I really do mean zero) have an understanding of what the theory of evolution actually says.  The conclusion I have reached is that it is impossible to learn enough about it to understand it without also come to accept the obviousness of it.  Do you think my conclusion is right, or do you have some alternate hypothesis? 

[outin]

@Outi you believe that the less rules the better, because then we have less people breaking them? Why do we have rules at all then? Why not just get rid of rules or laws?

What??  I'm a bureaucrat, I love rules!




When they make sense

[pencilart3]

What??  I'm a bureaucrat, I love rules!

When they make sense

What is a Christian rule that doesn't make sense to you?

[timothy42b]

What is a Christian rule that doesn't make sense to you?

Hee, hee, gets popcorn, waits for No True Scotsman to appear.

[pencilart3]

Hee, hee, gets popcorn,

This is exactly what I was talking about.

[yewtree]

If evolution is ongoing, then what are we evolving into to?

[outin]

What is a Christian rule that doesn't make sense to you?

You're kidding right? I would rather ask if any of them really make sense to me in the contex they are used.

But I am not going to discuss this with you further, because I feel it's a waste of time for both of us.

Instead lets just go practice the preludes...there are a couple I need to learn now and you have to do the whole set, right?

[outin]

If evolution is ongoing, then what are we evolving into to?

Grammarless?

[yewtree]

Grammarless?

What are we evolving into?

Ok, mea culpa,  mea bloody culpa,  I ought to have noticed before I posted,  my mistake , ok it was a mistake, an unintended error, ok !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pencilart3]

You're kidding right? I would rather ask if any of them really make sense to me in the contex they are used.

But I am not going to discuss this with you further, because I feel it's a waste of time for both of us.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT EVERYBODY SAYS! They say that there are so many that they can't pick one! But they never say one. It drives me crazy.

[yewtree]

This white on black is so harsh, it makes my eyes go blurry .

[outin]

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT EVERYBODY SAYS! They say that there are so many that they can't pick one! But they never say one. It drives me crazy.

This is just too weird...Because I felt pity for you I wrote you an answer and posted it but it never appeared...was that an interference of your God?! Even he thinks we should practice the preludes instead!

[pencilart3]

This is just too weird...Because I felt pity for you I wrote you an answer and posted it but it never appeared...was that an interference of your God?! Even he thinks we should practice the preludes instead!

I couldn't have found a finer example. Thanks for showing everybody what I meant! All right, that's enough. Can we just debate now??

[timothy42b]

This white on black is so harsh, it makes my eyes go blurry .

Go up to the top of the page, and over on the right hand side click Print.

Everything will go black on white instantly. 

[adodd81802]

@Adodd blowing people up and shooting people are CLEALY condemned in the Bible. Just look at the 6th commandment. You apparently haven't read the book once. That's just the problem with labeling my religion as "Christianity". So many people "Profess to be Christians" (President Obama, Justin Bieber) that you just can't label me as a "Christian" and then attack everyone else who uses that name, saying I am the same!
And I'm still waiting to discuss those proteins....

This is exactly my point. It IS condemned. Don't make assumptions about my knowledge on the bible.

The fact is people abuse what Christianity and many other religions actually represent and interpret it incorrectly, claiming their extremist behavior was an "act of God" or because you don't believe in my god, take it all away and not let these closed beliefs dictate how we behave or act towards others that don't believe the same.

You are considering my view on Christianity a personal attack on you, when i've not once said that you or extremists represent what it is to be a Christian.

What i'm saying is to create the label in the first place is always going to create diversity, segregation resulting in conflict, wars and erratic behavior.

You could argue this about any religion, which again is exactly the point.

[thalbergmad]

If pencilart was born in Afghanistan instead of America, he would be prattling on about Islam instead of Christianity. Either way, you cannot debate with those who's mind has already been made up.

Personally, i do not live my life based on some bronze aged guide book interpreted by people who wear skirts and have imaginary friends and thankfully this nonsense is in decline in my Country. Science has releived God of many of his previous duties and this will continue so he can eventually retire and exist only in the brains of simpletons.

Thal

[adodd81802]

If pencilart was born in Afghanistan instead of America, he would be prattling on about Islam instead of Christianity. Either way, you cannot debate with those who's mind has already been made up.

Personally, i do not live my life based on some bronze aged guide book interpreted by people who wear skirts and have imaginary friends and thankfully this nonsense is in decline in my Country. Science has releived God of many of his previous duties and this will continue so he can eventually retire and exist only in the brains of simpletons.

Thal

+1 Again.

[timothy42b]

This is exactly what I was talking about.

I didn't want to intrude into a private disagreement.

I have neither asserted that Christian rules are silly or they are not.

What I suspect might happen is that your disagree in this case will list a Christian rule, and you'll say that doesn't count, because it isn't really a Christian rule.  

For example, isn't it a bit silly to prohibit boiling a kid (goat) in its mother's milk?  That's one of the original Ten Commandments, not the mistaken modern version of the Ten.  

And your response might possibly be "that's an old testament rule, and we aren't bound by the old testament, except when we are."

Isn't it a bit silly to say women can't be pastors and priests?  

But large sections of Christianity do have women pastors and priests.

Okay, what about fish on Friday?  Nope, that's just the Catholics, and according to fundamentalists Catholics aren't Christian.

You see where I'm going?  There is no one set of Christian rules that everybody agrees on.  The larger denominations have catechisms that specify the rules of faith in detail but I'm pretty sure yours does not.  There's a good chance that any example of a silly rule could be dismissed as not really a Christian rule.  

There is also a large part of Jesus's ministry that is ignored or disbelieved by modern Christians.  These are "rules" that I find very compelling but mean nothing to the more conservative ends of the spectrum.  

[thalbergmad]

I know a lot of atheists, despite not being one myself, and I have yet to run into a single one of your mythical angry atheists.  I'm sure there are some. 
 

Indeed. There are some lovely youtube clips where Dawkins loses it when faced with incredible stupidity and bigotry.

Thal

[pencilart3]

The fact is people abuse what Christianity and many other religions actually represent

Well, then, that's not a problem with the "religion", is it?

[thalbergmad]

+1 Again.

I am not used to having people agree with me  

Thal

[adodd81802]

Well, then, that's not a problem with the "religion", is it?

You can't pull out the one segment you disagree with and just ignore the rest...

I responded to your whole message and you can only quote one segment in response?

[timothy42b]

Indeed. There are some lovely youtube clips where Dawkins loses it when faced with incredible stupidity and bigotry.

Thal

Yeah.  There is that small subset of evangelical atheists who are out to convert people, or at least rage against the dying of the light.  Whoops, started channeling Dylan, sorry.  The vast majority though have other interests and it's just a coincidence they believe in one less God than theists do;  theirs is a religion the same way not collecting stamps is a hobby. Sam Harris might be another like that, or maybe Christopher Hitchens.  

[outin]

Actually I find something like this to be quite ridiculous:
"You only need to believe in God in order to get to heaven.
Everyone is a sinner and it's actually ok to have sinned, you will be forgiven and will have eternal life as long as you just repent and believe in God." (Translated freely by me from the religious crap I am regularly exposed to without my consent)
And that's kind of the core principle of the Lutheran beliefs most common in this part of the world... Won't even bother to list the really grazy/disgusting stuff spread by the fundamentalists...

May I go practice the preludes now?

[thalbergmad]

After the horrors of 9/11, some stupid American tambo banger was on the news giving thanks to God when one man was miraculously saved. I wonder what his God was doing when over 2000 were killed?

Similarly, what was Allah up to when many of his followers were stampeded to death or crushed under that crane. Why did he not lift his mighty hand to protect them?

Thal

[pencilart3]

You can't pull out the one segment you disagree with and just ignore the rest...

I responded to your whole message and you can only quote one segment in response?

Ok, fair enough...

The fact is people abuse what Christianity and many other religions actually represent and interpret it incorrectly, claiming their extremist behavior was an "act of God" or because you don't believe in my god, take it all away and not let these closed beliefs dictate how we behave or act towards others that don't believe the same.

Yes. But in the Bible, do we see anybody hacking people do death because they didn't believe in the Bible? No. Not once. They healed people, preached, and were killed themselves. Now the Quran, for example.... that's a different story. The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule.  Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding.  Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. The Bible does not call for this anywhere.

You are considering my view on Christianity a personal attack on you, when i've not once said that you or extremists represent what it is to be a Christian.

Ok...

What i'm saying is to create the label in the first place is always going to create diversity, segregation resulting in conflict, wars and erratic behavior.

Yeah, that's why I don't like the label "Christian", which is why this whole topic is a stupid idea. Sorry, chopinlover.

If pencilart was born in Afghanistan instead of America, he would be prattling on about Islam instead of Christianity. Either way, you cannot debate with those who's mind has already been made up.

Which is why I cannot debate with you. And by your logic, you would be a flaming Muslim also.

[pencilart3]

After the horrors of 9/11, some stupid American tambo banger was on the news giving thanks to God when one man was miraculously saved. I wonder what his God was doing when over 2000 were killed?

Similarly, what was Allah up to when many of his followers were stampeded to death or crushed under that crane. Why did he not lift his mighty hand to protect them?

Thal

And Thal, that's why you can't talk about people who call themselves "Christian", yet who do not hold the same beliefs as me, as though they were me! Didn't you read any of my previous posts?!

[pianoman1233]

Jesus was misinterpreted and there's no hell but we're living in there now. Everyone should became enlightened, that's what is the heaven. He was a spiritual master as many other but he is the greatest one. He will incarnate second time and he is the anti-christ at first.

[pianoman1233]

Also there isn't God, but God is everything that exist.

[adodd81802]

Yes. But in the Bible, do we see anybody hacking people do death because they didn't believe in the Bible? No. Not once. They healed people, preached, and were killed themselves. Now the Quran, for example.... that's a different story. The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule.  Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding.  Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. The Bible does not call for this anywhere.

No in the bible, they killed people for other reasons.

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. If a man takes a woman and her mother also, it is depravity; he and they shall be burned with fire."

[adodd81802]

Also there isn't God, but God is everything that exists.

No I think that's Carbon  you're thinking of.

[outin]

... Didn't you read any of my previous posts?!

The chances of Thal actually reading your posts is about the same as him listening to the Schumann concerto... You are definitely wasting your time with him as well.

[pianoman1233]

Also you shouldn't quote nothing but Jesus from the bible. All the others didn't know much.

[timothy42b]

Yes. But in the Bible, do we see anybody hacking people do death because they didn't believe in the Bible? No. Not once.

Well..............there is this from earlier in the thread:

(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
 
    So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children.  "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin."  Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan

.

Something to remember, Jesus revered the OT (though he interpreted it a bit differently, one of his major insights) and never saw any of the NT.  

[pencilart3]

No in the bible, they killed people for other reasons.

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. If a man takes a woman and her mother also, it is depravity; he and they shall be burned with fire."

Yup, that was in the Old Testament, and that law was canceled out when Jesus died for us.

Here's what's coming...
NO YOU IDIOT YOU CAN'T PICK AND CHOSE WHAT LEFT THE OLD TESTAMENT AND WHAT WE KEPT! HAHA RETARD L M F A O

If you are interested, read this article... https://www.gotquestions.org/ceremonial-law.html

[thalbergmad]

The chances of Thal actually reading your posts is about the same as him listening to the Schumann concerto... You are definitely wasting your time with him as well.

I read a couple of them and feel sorrow towards anyone suffering from that level of delusions.

Very sad.

Thal

[timothy42b]

Yup, that was in the Old Testament, and that law was canceled out when Jesus died for us.

pencilart,
You saying it doesn't make it true.

That article you quoted is simply one person's opinion with no authority. 

[pencilart3]

That article you quoted is simply one person's opinion with no authority.  

What are all of your posts?

[outin]

What are all of your posts?

Everyone's post is just that. What else could they be when the subject is what it is...after all the only possible authority here only exists for believers.

BTW. It's not very nice to first insist that I give you an example and when I do just ignore it. A simple thanks will do

[adodd81802]

Yup, that was in the Old Testament, and that law was canceled out when Jesus died for us.

Here's what's coming...
NO YOU IDIOT YOU CAN'T PICK AND CHOSE WHAT LEFT THE OLD TESTAMENT AND WHAT WE KEPT! HAHA RETARD L M F A O

If you are interested, read this article... https://www.gotquestions.org/ceremonial-law.html

I find your comment rather childish. which is expected with your constant back and forths with rub and your ignorant religious views.

So with testaments, old and new, what we are essentially agreeing here is this is NOT a book set in stone. It was created on the views and opinions of other people.

Have you ever seen a magic trick? Something unexplainable. You know like somebody just magically turning water into wine?

What's ridiculous above everything is that if another "testament" came out with new laws and new rules, you'd believe it in a heartbeat, no question?

Scenario - if we still referred to the old testament, would you then agree that homosexuals should be put to death?

[pencilart3]

Sorry Outi, I didn't see it. It got swamped in the "Thalfoolery".

Actually I find something like this to be quite ridiculous:
"You only need to believe in God in order to get to heaven.
Everyone is a sinner and it's actually ok to have sinned, you will be forgiven and will have eternal life as long as you just repent and believe in God." (Translated freely by me from the religious crap I am regularly exposed to without my consent)
And that's kind of the core principle of the Lutheran beliefs most common in this part of the world... Won't even bother to list the really grazy/disgusting stuff spread by the fundamentalists...

1. You only need to believe in God to "get" to heaven. That depends on what you mean by "Believe".
2. It is definitely NOT OK if you have sinned. It grieves God, and if Jesus hadn't died for you, you would be sent straight to hell.

You can go practice the preludes if you wish.

[visitor]

No I think that's Carbon  you're thinking of.

me thinks you meant hydrogen (*sorry my inner science nerd was evoked)
 

[timothy42b]

Yup, that was in the Old Testament, and that law was canceled out when Jesus died for us.

The Bible doesn't say the law was cancelled.

That's a conclusion your church has drawn from the idea that Jesus fulfilled the law.  It's not an unreasonable guess, but it is just a guess, and it is contradicted by Jesus's own words.

The Bible doesn't say Jesus fulfilled the law.  That's a conclusion your church has drawn from Paul's ideas; actually it only implies he "lived in accordance with" the law rather than fulfilling the law in the sense of bringing a coherent story to a conclusion.  

The Bible is also pretty fuzzy about why Jesus died, but that is probably above your head theologically.