Measures 96-97 of Chopin's Third Ballade

[ardith]

Measures 96-97 of Chopin's Third Ballade include some unusually wide chords for Chopin - C to F making an 11th, and C to E making a tenth.  Most editions (e.g., Paderewski, Kullak, Joseffy) do not explicitly indicate these chords as rolled, except for the one that spans from C to A flat (a diminished thirteenth). However, I found one edition on IMSLP (Editor: Klindworth) that does clearly show all these chords as rolled.
It is possible to catch the top notes in the left-hand chords with the right hand thumb, as a way to avoid rolling for those who can't span these intervals.  But if the intention was for all of them to be rolled, this may not be necessary.
Does anyone have an opinion on what Chopin's true intention was here?

[mjames]

Spent some time listening to a bunch of recordings to answer you this so here's my answer:

you can split it, and you can roll it. Some pianists do the former, some do the latter. It doesn't matter what Chopin wanted, he's dead. Do what works best for you.

I'd roll the left hand chords, but that's just my personal taste. What do you want to do?

[8_octaves]

[...]   Do what works best for you.

Hi,
just read through the interesting thread, and I think so, too, @mjames, since abilities, stretches, musical taste etc. differ from pianist to pianist.

Interesting would, nevertheless, be, what Chopin wrote in his manuscript of the op. 47-Ballade, but it seems to be lost.- 

btw.: A short look on some editions should kindly be allowed here? Ok:
Neither the French, nor German, nor English first edition indicates the chords as "rolled".

Here (in case some didn't know?) we can have a a comparative look on the three first-editions, by selecting the Ballade op. 47 on the left and toggle between the F,G,E -1st Editions by clicking on the"+" , and then on the "+" next to "score" to visualize the desired pages:

https://www.cfeo.org.uk/jsp/browsecollection.jsp

We can read through the "Publication history", too.
Mikuli's version (on IMSLP) doesn't either indicate the chords as rolled.

____________
Chopin's Autograph MS seems to be lost, as I said, but a copy of an unknown original MS was made by Saint-Saens, it seems to orientate on the Schlesinger (F) first Edition.

https://en.chopin.nifc.pl/chopin/manuscripts/detail/id/125

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[8_octaves]

Addition:

And, of course, the Saint-Saens-copy (which doesn't indicate the chords as "rolled", either), can be visualized on the Chopin online variorum edition, which is very interesting, I think. Check it out:

https://www.ocve.org.uk/jsp/browse.jsp

And there's a source called "A" there, too! Check it out!!

Cordially, 8_oct!

[michael_c]

In the 19th century it was common for composers to write chords too large for normal hands, without specifically indicating them to be rolled (there are many examples in Chopin, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Weber...). It was up to the pianist to decide how to play these passages.

It's also worth remembering that in this era it was very common to split or roll chords even when this wasn't made necessary by their size, nor was it indicated in the score: you can still hear this style of playing on very old recordings.

[stevensk]

If you cant reach some notes and cant roll it etc, drop it. Leave them out and play the other notes in the chords. If you do it smart, no one will hear the difference

[michael_c]

If you cant reach some notes and cant roll it etc, drop it. Leave them out and play the other notes in the chords. If you do it smart, no one will hear the difference

Leaving out notes is certainly not what Chopin intended. This isn't the only place where he wrote "impossible" chords without an explicit indication to roll them: he expected the player, in the style normal at the time, to find a pleasing way of rolling or splitting the chords. He did expect the player to play all the notes that were written, and no others: it is documented that he was very particular about this with his students.

[stevensk]

Leaving out notes is certainly not what Chopin intended. This isn't the only place where he wrote "impossible" chords without an explicit indication to roll them: he expected the player, in the style normal at the time, to find a pleasing way of rolling or splitting the chords. He did expect the player to play all the notes that were written, and no others: it is documented that he was very particular about this with his students.

-I suppose that "ardit" arent gonna play this for Chopin anyway. Further, If one have difficulties playing certain notes, THAT sounds worse than leaving them out

[mjames]

true that, chopin is dead. what he wanted doesnt mean sht anymore. we're not his students. There are some really awesome musicians from the 19th and 20th century who added in little stuff here and there while playing Chopin.

Modern pianists are so concerned with what others EXPECT them to do instead of doing what they WANT to do in their interpretations. A good example of a modern pianist not afraid of doing new things is Katsaris. It's sad really. And annoying.

inb4 someone says, "I suppose you like to write your own beginnings and endings in music too."
please, that's not what i mean.

[8_octaves]

Leaving out notes is certainly not what Chopin intended. This isn't the only place where he wrote "impossible" chords without an explicit indication to roll them: he expected the player, in the style normal at the time, to find a pleasing way of rolling or splitting the chords. He did expect the player to play all the notes that were written, and no others: it is documented that he was very particular about this with his students.

Hi Michael,

I would agree to some points. Let me pls add to the underlined sentence:

Not only with his students, but also with Liszt, to whom he, as we all surely know, according to sources, said:

"I beg you, my dear friend, when you play my music, to play it as it is written or not at all."

Another book, if I remember correctly, which I read many many years ago and which I don't have anymore (could be the Schonberg, or some other book I stll have but cannot remember), describes more drastic scene:

Liszt once played the op.9,2 - nocturne of Chopin (or a mazurka) , and added many variations and  
ornamentation. Chopin heard him playing, then got angry and said, not directly to Liszt:

"Can't he play it only one single time exactly as I have written it down ? Only one single time!"

__

But of course we have, as you pointed out, @Michael, not to forget the performance-behaviour of many of the pianists of Chopin's time. There existed, as we know, not only the salon-evenings and meetings and smaller concerts, but also concerts in big halls, and pianists / pianist-composers sometimes improvised pieces while playing, which weren't written down at all, or, if they were written down, then soetimes the composer/pianist/improviser didn't do that himself, but other accomplished members of the audience did it later by ear, from that what they had heard! Sometimes the results were super (e.g. Espadero, who wrote down by ear some works of Gottschalk, which otherwise would have been lost forever since Moreau didn't like sometimes to write pieces down), but maybe other persons didn't write down by ear so well in the world - who knows... .

Back to Chopin: I think -all in all- it might be a little dangerous thing to prove something by things which aren't existing, (e.g. arpeggio-signs, flats, sharps, and many more), and I think, in other cases Chopin was, in fact, able to WRITE such signs.

But you are right, again, considering the performance-behaviour, and that Chopin surely didn't want to have notes left out! I fully agree!

But on the other hand, mjames and others are also right, I think. We should rely on our own abilities, and for some people wide-spread grasps are a problem (which is here in the Ballade easily solveable, as was pointed out before), and we should rely on our rationality and sense.

Very cordially, 8_octaves!

[amytsuda]

Interesting. I was rolling them without questioning (I can only reach 9th). So I looked up a bunch of YouTube videos. And then, I realized all these male pianists with big hands are not rolling them since they can obviously reach them (good for them!). So I tried to look for YouTube of female pianists. I found some are doing what you say, catching them with right hand to avoid rolling, but at least I found Yuja Wang and Maria Tipo rolling them. So probably both are fine Probably it's more about how we roll them. Rolling can be notes crushing with each other, or can sound very refined.