Out of Tuning in Just 1 week!!

[ulymoon]

Hello,

I have a new upright piano that was in very light use for about 5 months in the showroom only. It was tuned once or twice (I've forgotten that piece of info).

The dealer delivered the piano to my house and, two days later, the tuner working for the dealer came in and did the tuning. 

A day after tuning: two treble notes lost unison.
A week after tuning: about 15 notes lost unison! Most of them in the higher 2  octaves.

Is it because the tuner could not carry out a stable tuning OR is it because the piano is still new?

[quantum]

New pianos need time to settle, as well as acclimatize to a new environment.  I'd give it about 12 months to stabilize. Unless you are planning on using it for recordings, a few out of tune unisons on a new piano would not be too much of an immediate concern. 

In the meantime, monitor environmental conditions in the piano room and be on the lookout for any patterns that arise with tuning instability. 

[silverwoodpianos]

Recommended 4 tunings in the first year.

That is one every 3 months. The top notes have gone out of tune as those are the smallest diameter strings and the mass is easily displaced by environmental factors or the shifting of the structure under load.
 The instrument  is new and has to settle in so your is the latter symptom.

[ulymoon]

Quantum...
silverwoodpianos...

Thanls a lot.

Yes, new pianos have to settle in, I just didn't expect it to go out of tune so quickly. Anyway, I'll see how things go on.

Actually, the dealer recommended that tuning should take place after a week so that the
piano climatize... but I wanted the tuning immediately!
Maybe my fault.

[pristinepiano]

2 weeks is better for a piano to acclimatise for environment change...thats about how long it takes most soundboards to fully absorb or release moisture on averaged relative humidity differences.  By any chance, do you have the instrument near a heating/AC duct or, possibly getting direct sunlight on it for parts of the day?  This too, can play havoc on the tuning stability.

Although this is taking a guess, its possible that the tuning was not done with a great deal of care.  Dealer/tuner arrangements on newly delivered pianos are mostly discounted quite a bit (as much as 50%) and these types of tunings are often just "minimally adequate".  The treble can have a bit more stability issues as Mr. Silverwood mentioned; it also takes less string/tuning pin shifting to disrupt the unison clarity on higher frequencies also.

FWIW....when I follow up on sloppy tunings, If it was done by ear alone, I typically see the worst issues in the treble, if it was done by ETD alone, the issues are usually more in the bass.

[ulymoon]

Pristinepiano,

Thanks for the information but I was too excited to wait for 2 weeks! The weather here is so hot and humidity level is often 15-25% all the time; however, in August it can shoot up to 80%, which is a bad weather for pianos. Also, it's dusty every now and then. Yamaha says their pianos are seasoned for the destination. So I guess that might not be a big problem.

Yes, the room has the air-conditioner on (humidity mode) for most of the time but I've made sure that the piano is never directly exposed to the AC air stream. No sunlight is allowed directly at the piano, no near window...etc.

[pristinepiano]

It sounds like your taking care of it enviromentally and that is good step in the right direction.  Consider getting a decent relative humidity gage to monitor what is going on.  45% RH is the near ideal humidity to keep it at.   They also make nice USB operated RH meters which data log over days/weeks months and can make a nice chart to see what your big swings are with the seasons. Its worthwhile to do tunings in these summer winter fluctuations about 2 weeks or so after your furnace/AC is turned off or on ...during the transitional months.  This favours a good solid tuning and can give you 6 months of reasonable stability. 

A Dampp Chaser installation is also a good investment if you really value the piano.  It keeps a stable RH micro climate in the piano year round.  I have two identical uprights in the same room and one has a DC installed in it.  It rarely fluctuates more than a few cents sharp or flat over the year.  The other one goes 15 cents sharp in the summer and about 8-10 cents flat in the winter. (us tuners measure the change in cents...100 cents = 1 semitone, 1200 cents in an octave).

[ulymoon]

Thank you for all the information.

I'd love to get a damper chaser installed but, believe it or not, I couldn't find it sold anywhere here! Also, I don't know of any person who can install it! The only way is to get one from Dubai and then I'd have to install it by myself.

The only thing I've found is  a so-called room-weather controller. It's a plastic box, about 100cmx 30cmx30cm. The ad on it says: This machine will control the humidity in a room, it will also suck any smoke or dust. It's about 300$. I'm not sure if it will do my piano any good.

[pristinepiano]

Around my parts, Dampp Chasers are not sold directly to the public, only technicians can get them, and the techs get them from regional reps...not directly from the manufacturer.  If you can get a hold of one where you are, don't be intimidated by the installation.  If you can turn a screwdriver and read a simple diagram, it should not be a problem whatsoever.  I did my first installation in about an hour and a half and routinely can install them in under an hour now.   Very nice instructions come with them covering all the different types of pianos.   

An equally good solution (if not better) is to control the humidity in the room where the piano is with a humidifier/dehumidifier.  Just be careful with the misting type of humidifiers  so that none of it can collect or fall on the metal parts of the piano directly.  Strings, tuning pins and other parts can easily rust.

[ulymoon]

As usual, you are always kind enough to provide the forum with your valuable information.

Unfortunately, I could not find a humidifier. If I can get it online, I'll certainly order one, though I'm not sure just of now what brand a good humidifier is.

[pristinepiano]

You need to assess the size of the room where you are humidifying to know what type to get.  If the room is under 400 sq ft, you can use an evaporative kind.  Best model from consumer reports is honeywell HMC-350 and its under $90 usually.   If the room cant be closed off or is larger than 400 sq ft. then you should look for an ultrasonic type...they simply pump out more humidity than the evaporative type.  Generally you want to get one which preferably has a one piece plastic tank with no sharp corners or crevices...this prevents eventual leaks and mold growth and helps keep them clean.  Some will allow you to put the tank in a dishwasher for cleaning also.

Piano technicains are also good source to find out what you are likely to need.  They would be familiar with other piano owners in your area the type of problems they encounter with climate conditions there.     

[ulymoon]

Hello,
I wish there were a few piano technicians here!

I think I'll take your advice and go with an ultrasonic. Would you please recommend 2 or 3 good quality brands?
I need a device that can decrease and increase humidity. Also, I would like to have a device that doesn't need changing the pads periodically.

Note: the weather here is very dry except in August when it can go as far as 80%. So I guess a damp chaser won't do, because it can only decrease humidity, not increase it. I'm not sure of this but this is what I could understand from my online reading.

Thank you.

[timothy42b]

Hello,
I wish there were a few piano technicians here!

There are a few, but there is a very active piano technicians forum on PianoWorld that is worth checking out.

[silverwoodpianos]

Hello,
I wish there were a few piano technicians here!

There are a number of us that pop in here to assist. Bob, pristine piano, pianolive and myself are all techies of 35 years or more. There are others whose names escape me at the moment.

For this part;

 

There are a few, but there is a very active piano technicians forum on PianoWorld that is worth checking out.

Unfortunately over time the PW tech forum has become a layman’s forum with a lot of amateurs and do-it-yourselfers posing as technicians and answering questions that many of us had to spend considerable time correcting.

The majority of the long-time high end technicians have left that place and are unlikely to return.
 
Unfortunate but the responsibility for that lies with the decisions made by the owner.

[ulymoon]

timothy42b

silverwoodpianos

I'm really sorry for the miss I've just made. By "here" I mean "here in Saudi Arabia"...."I wish there were a few technicians here [in Saudi Arabia]"

I think the Piano World Forums still have the asset of many good technicians.

Regards,
Ulymoon.

[pristinepiano]

Ulymoon, 

As Mr. Silverwood mentioned, there are some good technicians at this forum.  I have over 30 years experience, and others are here who are very experienced also.  Pianoworld does still have a small number of decent techs remaining from the many, many who have left...but unfortunately, they are usually not the ones who are responding there to technical questions most of the time.  You can spot these few with their signatures indicating their business...the rest are wannabe's and hacks. The site has become very "American" and few there are familiar with issues related to pianos in other countries, older antique pianos and the many European pianos available worldwide.

 90% of the dialogue at PW seems to center around Unequal Temperaments or what they call ET alternatives, and these are all traced to a few techs there who author them, and are trying to promote them ad naseum. They also promote substituting UTs for ET without informing clients of the change...this is considered unethical by most technicians.   That is the only forum in the world where this stuff is discussed or considered viable in every day business.  They can't even agree on what is a "good" tuning and absurd concepts are constantly being tabled like unisons tuned away from beatless, stretched octave intervals that beat and of course...the temperament flavour of the month. 

Most regions of the world have very accurate climate data available on line where average degree days, humidity averages are logged and kept track of.  Looking at these first will help you decide what type of climate control you need for what.  I am not familiar with "all in one" conditioners for rooms, although the Dampp Chasers do address both humidity and dryness extremes.  They have a humidifyer tank for dryness, and also heating bars which chase away high humidity, and will regulate both swings efficiently with an accurate sensor controlling it.

My personal experience with DC is good but I believe they have limits for their effectiveness.  If you are in a dryer climate than 20% RH or a wetter one than 75% RH, you would likely be served better with a  stand alone humidifyer and a dehumidifyer.  Upright pianos seem to fair a bit better than grands for Dampp Chaser effectiveness at the extremes, mainly because the unit is fully contained in the cabinet.

[ulymoon]

Again I've dropped a brick! I'm sorry. I meant the Piano Street Forums still have an asset of fine piano technicians, just as The World Piano Forums still does.

Yet, I agree with you pristinepiano, I heard others say what you've just said.

Good to know that a Damp Chaser can control humidity whether up or down.

Thank you.