Beginner Looking For Opinions and Critique, Chopin Nocturne

[sovrel]

I've been playing for about a month and a half to two months now and I've just "finished" my first piece. I haven't been able to afford lessons and would love some input from any experienced pianists. I know that I butchered the end in this recording, which is mostly due to nerves. Other than that, I know my tempo is a bit too fast and my trills need work. I can read music but not sight read. Everything I've played is memorized. My goal at the moment is to get this Nocturne up to performance level and learn the op. 64 no. 2 Chopin Waltz.

https://soundcloud.com/d159/f-chopin-nocturne-op9-no2

Any mistakes that I haven't noticed and constructive criticism is very welcome, thanks!

[stoat_king]

Im not an expert, so take this with a pinch of salt...

A couple of points:

You are consistently getting one of the chords in the left hand wrong.
In bar 2 (2nd full bar), just after the ornament on C in the right hand, the left hand is wrong (2nd of the 4 3-note grouping in the left hand.
Ditto bar 6, in the same place.

A minor issue for me is that your use of rubato is inconsistent.
Maybe this is intentional, but it sounds a little odd. I prefer it with rubato, but the sheet music I have says explicitly that this should be played with no rubato whatsoever.
Regardless of which you prefer it just sounds a bit odd that you use it in some places and not in others.

Personally, I find the first bit a little mechanical (no rubato), but by the time you've got to bar 19-20 I think it sounds much better.

I dont really think the tempo is too fast and I cant see any big issue with the trills, although maybe what I'm really saying is that your trills are better than mine lol.

[sovrel]

Im not an expert, so take this with a pinch of salt...

A couple of points:

You are consistently getting one of the chords in the left hand wrong.
In bar 2 (2nd full bar), just after the ornament on C in the right hand, the left hand is wrong (2nd of the 4 3-note grouping in the left hand.
Ditto bar 6, in the same place.

A minor issue for me is that your use of rubato is inconsistent.
Maybe this is intentional, but it sounds a little odd. I prefer it with rubato, but the sheet music I have says explicitly that this should be played with no rubato whatsoever.
Regardless of which you prefer it just sounds a bit odd that you use it in some places and not in others.

Personally, I find the first bit a little mechanical (no rubato), but by the time you've got to bar 19-20 I think it sounds much better.

I dont really think the tempo is too fast and I cant see any big issue with the trills, although maybe what I'm really saying is that your trills are better than mine lol.

You are totally right about the chord being wrong. I couldn't read sheet music at all when i started this piece and I must have mixed up a note. Thanks for pointing that out! I feel the same about my rubato. I think part of it is recording anxiety, and another part is just a lack of control overall. The more comfortable I am in a certain place the more rubato there is. I will go over it again with rubato as the main focus.

[pianoplayer002]

This is very impressive if you've only played for 2 months. You play very musically and seem to have a understanding of the longer musical line. Have you played another instrument before?

I think the tempo is good - often this piece is played a bit too slowly and as a consequence becomes too boring and static for my liking. The problem is not the speed, but that it sounds stressfull. You could play it at this tempo but make it give a much calmer impression. Sometimes you accent the third note/chord of each accompaniment figure, but the emphasis (a very subtle one) should be on the 2nd note/chord; not um-pa-PA or um-PA-PA, but um-PA-pa. Also make sure you can allow the accompaniment to flow very evenly. This will help it sound less agitated.

In bar 10 and 18 you quite audibly accent the 8th note beats of 16th notes in the right hand . Listen so that it is even and singing on its own, and not affected by accompanying 8th notes. Watch out for similar things in the rest of the piece - when phrasing a singing line you should generally not accent the beats (in bar 9 for example, you play the 8th note too softly while accenting the dotted quarter note following it). Overall you do well.

Bar 12 and 20 you suddenly go down to piano for no real reason. Remain in the "forte" character even if you might bring down the dynamics slightly to do the crescendo.

[sovrel]

This is very impressive if you've only played for 2 months. You play very musically and seem to have a understanding of the longer musical line. Have you played another instrument before?

I think the tempo is good - often this piece is played a bit too slowly and as a consequence becomes too boring and static for my liking. The problem is not the speed, but that it sounds stressfull. You could play it at this tempo but make it give a much calmer impression. Sometimes you accent the third note/chord of each accompaniment figure, but the emphasis (a very subtle one) should be on the 2nd note/chord; not um-pa-PA or um-PA-PA, but um-PA-pa. Also make sure you can allow the accompaniment to flow very evenly. This will help it sound less agitated.

In bar 10 and 18 you quite audibly accent the 8th note beats of 16th notes in the right hand . Listen so that it is even and singing on its own, and not affected by accompanying 8th notes. Watch out for similar things in the rest of the piece - when phrasing a singing line you should generally not accent the beats (in bar 9 for example, you play the 8th note too softly while accenting the dotted quarter note following it). Overall you do well.

Bar 12 and 20 you suddenly go down to piano for no real reason. Remain in the "forte" character even if you might bring down the dynamics slightly to do the crescendo.

   First of all thanks for the response. I played guitar for a few years but never actively tried to improve like I am doing with the piano. Back to the Nocturne, I've heard a lot about playing it more calmly and smoothly but wasn't sure how to adequately do so. I think the phrasing of the left hand could be key to that. The accenting creates a problem with the fluidity I think, I will try to fix all of these. In regards to bar 12 and 20, I am having some problems getting the left hand smooth and having consistent dynamics as you have pointed out. But again, thanks for the advice. This is actually helping me progress tremendously.

[chopinlover01]

   First of all thanks for the response. I played guitar for a few years but never actively tried to improve like I am doing with the piano. Back to the Nocturne, I've heard a lot about playing it more calmly and smoothly but wasn't sure how to adequately do so. I think the phrasing of the left hand could be key to that. The accenting creates a problem with the fluidity I think, I will try to fix all of these. In regards to bar 12 and 20, I am having some problems getting the left hand smooth and having consistent dynamics as you have pointed out. But again, thanks for the advice. This is actually helping me progress tremendously.

You're right; the key to this piece being able to be fluid is left hand phrasing. Chopin himself allegedly insisted that the LH should sound like a chorus of guitars- makes sense, as this is a bit of a night serenade.
You might want to also slow it down, although that's probably my own personal taste.
You're VERY good for two months. Aside from wrong notes/chords, my only major complaint is there wasn't a ton of dynamic variance, except in the little chromatic tritone/fourths spot where you go soft- bravo for that, by the way!
At the end, with the a flat minor chords in the bass, perhaps slow down a tad more (rubato), but more than that is to watch your phrasing and cadences. With Chopin, you want to sort of die away at a cadence. Don't go so soft that your audience can't hear you, but make it noticeable.
Very well done! I'd love to hear more from you in the future. If you want a nocturne of similar difficulty, the one I love possibly the most of all of them is Op 37/1 in G minor. I think it was Liszt who said that these nocturnes are also good introductions to the Op 27 nocturnes (D flat major and C sharp minor). Definitely worth checking out.

[sovrel]

So I went ahead and re-recorded it with left hand phrasing and fluidity in mind. Still some mistakes but a lot fewer than previously.

https://soundcloud.com/d159/f-chopin-nocturne-op-9-no-2-2

Any additional input? I've never consciously tried to phrase in the left hand so it is still not legato.. I think with more practice it will get there though. Does it still sound stressful and agitated?

[chopinlover01]

Still as wonderful as ever! This is probably the best recording I've heard submitted here, period.
Just a handful of (rather nitpicky) things:

 At around 1:21, you rush the piece a little bit. I can kind of see what you're going for, but it's not quite working. Perhaps try pushing just the little chromatic figure, but keeping the main melody flowing?
 At around 1:27 you're missing a LH bass note. Not too detrimental, but does kind of isolate the RH.
 At the trill around 1:30; this is romantic period music, so you typically trill starting on the main note rather than the auxillary. You can do either, but try both. If you really prefer the latter, that's fine, just thought I'd bring your attention to it. This also applies around 2:23ish with the main theme coming back.
 (This isn't an error) 1:40ish- LOVE your use of rubato; effective without overdoing it
 This is really nitpicky, but around 1:52, with the repeated E flats, you add in one extra one. Or perhaps it's my ear tricking me. Either way, double check your score.
 1:57, as you probably know, there's a wrong bass note that kind of throws it off with an atonal interval.
 2:02, try getting a little softer. Nitpicky yet again, but you're essentially reaching a mini cadence, and you want to pull back a little and die down.
 2:10, with the recurrence of the main theme, you seem to be rushing it a little, like before.
 
That's really all I can hear that's a big enough deal to worry about. Also note that these are all minor performance issues, and you're doing really well! Congrats!

[sovrel]

Still as wonderful as ever! This is probably the best recording I've heard submitted here, period.
Just a handful of (rather nitpicky) things:

 At around 1:21, you rush the piece a little bit. I can kind of see what you're going for, but it's not quite working. Perhaps try pushing just the little chromatic figure, but keeping the main melody flowing?
 At around 1:27 you're missing a LH bass note. Not too detrimental, but does kind of isolate the RH.
 At the trill around 1:30; this is romantic period music, so you typically trill starting on the main note rather than the auxillary. You can do either, but try both. If you really prefer the latter, that's fine, just thought I'd bring your attention to it. This also applies around 2:23ish with the main theme coming back.
 (This isn't an error) 1:40ish- LOVE your use of rubato; effective without overdoing it
 This is really nitpicky, but around 1:52, with the repeated E flats, you add in one extra one. Or perhaps it's my ear tricking me. Either way, double check your score.
 1:57, as you probably know, there's a wrong bass note that kind of throws it off with an atonal interval.
 2:02, try getting a little softer. Nitpicky yet again, but you're essentially reaching a mini cadence, and you want to pull back a little and die down.
 2:10, with the recurrence of the main theme, you seem to be rushing it a little, like before.
 
That's really all I can hear that's a big enough deal to worry about. Also note that these are all minor performance issues, and you're doing really well! Congrats!

Thanks again! Yeah, the missing bass note and the wrong note are the big mistakes here.. I actually considered stopping when I messed the bass note up and kept going.. I think I like the rubato it created though . I will try the softer playing towards the end of that mid section.. that could be what is stopping it from being as smooth as I'd like.. I just got carried away in the sudden dynamic change there that I absolutely love playing, ff to pp, very fun. As for the trills, Rubinstein does this E-F ornament and then starts the trill on the G which I personally really like as it adds some variety to the trills, which are quite bland otherwise. Anyway, maybe another 1000 or so playthroughs and it may be up to performance standard.. at least for me . Next is either his Waltz op 64 no 2 or the nocturne in c sharp minor posthumous (probably my favorite nocturne). Haven't decided yet. Yet again, thank you! You have helped me so much with this piece

[chopinlover01]

Don't ever stop in a piece, it ruins the continuity... it's like, if you were to go to a play, and they messed up a line, and they cut back to an earlier part of the scene instead of just dealing with the mistake.
The waltz and nocturnes are both definitely good choices, though they're both quite commonly played. The waltz will introduce you to his style of well, waltzes, and the nocturne, not counting the things apparent in this one (bel canto, rubato, phrasing, ornamentation, etc), you'll have large groups of notes over 4 or so. This is actually quite a challenge, so I'd actually recommend you take the waltz. But, it's up to you ultimately- get the scores for both (preferably in an actual book, rather than printed off the internet) and play through them, see how you do. For an introduction to the concept of several notes over a few, try the mazurka in A minor Op 17/4(in fact, get the entire collection of mazurkas, it's well worth it IMO), and good sight reading material). It has groups of five notes over one, so still divisible, but IMO it's better to start with that before going into unmeasurable groups.

[sovrel]

Don't ever stop in a piece, it ruins the continuity... it's like, if you were to go to a play, and they messed up a line, and they cut back to an earlier part of the scene instead of just dealing with the mistake.
The waltz and nocturnes are both definitely good choices, though they're both quite commonly played. The waltz will introduce you to his style of well, waltzes, and the nocturne, not counting the things apparent in this one (bel canto, rubato, phrasing, ornamentation, etc), you'll have large groups of notes over 4 or so. This is actually quite a challenge, so I'd actually recommend you take the waltz. But, it's up to you ultimately- get the scores for both (preferably in an actual book, rather than printed off the internet) and play through them, see how you do. For an introduction to the concept of several notes over a few, try the mazurka in A minor Op 17/4(in fact, get the entire collection of mazurkas, it's well worth it IMO), and good sight reading material). It has groups of five notes over one, so still divisible, but IMO it's better to start with that before going into unmeasurable groups.

Yeah, I think I'm going to stick with the waltz for now. My trills aren't as developed as I would like in the 2nd and 3rd fingers for the nocturne. Tricky rhythms and stuff like that come extremely naturally to me.. like almost easier than strict rhythmic patterns. I originally started on the Op 9 no 1 nocturne and I had absolutely no trouble with the cross rhythms in it, which seemed to be everyone's biggest problem that I read (I think this is similar to what you are talking about, I am not well versed in academic music at all). Ultimately I think I will learn both of them as my next two pieces though. This time I may have a teacher to help me. Though I practically did with this one with all of the help I get on here.

[chopinlover01]

Hmm... Well, then the nocturne might not be a problem for you. If it's more difficult than strict rhythm, however, you might be doing it wrong... but I wouldn't know, so go get a teacher ASAP!

[leemond2008]

I can't offer you any advice or tips on how your playing but all I can say is that I have been playing for 3 months (I've had 3 lessons in that time) and I'm no where near your level, I come from a guitar background like yourself as well so take heart in the fact that you are eclipsing me at the moment

keep up the good work