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I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed (Read 6395 times)

Offline marikafrank

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For more than a year I have been using two new, excellent, Bach books with my piano students. I hope you can lay your hand on them somehow. I will share some information here:

1 ) One is an excercise book for quality Bach harmony and beautiful voice-leading

2 ) Book with answers: All Bach´s Chorales ANALYZED, with chords, modulations
      - very exact Roman Numbers ( also all inversions) are below the piano score
      - modern (Jazz type) exact CHORDS are simultaneously above the piano score
     
NOTICE: This spark of genius to simultaneously show Roman Number analysis  AND modern Jazz chords in Bach has opened my students´ understanding and personal creativity - the same happened to myself as teacher  ;)

I got my own copies sent to my home here in Scandinavia in 2013 for 45USD from Amazon.com. The author and books are CHRISTOPHER CZARNECKI: J.S. Bach 413 Chorales Analyzed  the excercise book has the same name but without "Analyzed".

There is a good website about the Bach books, will try to LINK down here:
http://bachchoraleharmony.com/

There is a rather good Facebook page named: J.S. Bach 413 Chorales: Analyzed
I will try to LINK it down here:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/JS-Bach-413-Chorales-Analyzed/831877606883957?pnref=story




Offline anamnesis

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Re: I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed
«Reply #1 on: March 27, 2015, 02:27:22 AM »
I guess I'll repeat my reply here:

I have the book, and while it is an admirable attempt, sometimes the analyses leave a little bit to be desired.  The main problem is that it tries to force a bunch of roman numerals on every vertical simultaneity, slice by slice, without regard for the overall context and actual horizontal motion.

I get the feeling that the author was taught harmony from an older style of harmony book (Piston or Payne) that has since been coming out of fashion in the US, with more Schenkerian influenced texts replacing them.  Stephen Laitz, an author of one of those texts, makes the point here:

=211

Offline marikafrank

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Re: I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed
«Reply #2 on: March 27, 2015, 02:56:53 AM »
Good point, anamnesis, and your video link is highly intersting: I recommend members to watch it.
About the Bach books:  I personally warmly recommend (to techers really interested) to give a personal try, test with students and form an opinion. May be they will be sold out - somebody is selling a collectors´ used copy for almost a thousand dollars. I found the LINK directly to the cheaper price (and still new) books here

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-413-Chorales-Analyzed/dp/0989087905/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427423930&sr=8-1&keywords=christopher+czarne

Offline pianoplayer002

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Re: I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed
«Reply #3 on: March 27, 2015, 03:21:24 AM »
I guess I'll repeat my reply here:

I have the book, and while it is an admirable attempt, sometimes the analyses leave a little bit to be desired.  The main problem is that it tries to force a bunch of roman numerals on every vertical simultaneity, slice by slice, without regard for the overall context and actual horizontal motion.


This is why I think functional analysis is a much more superior system to both chord analysis and roman numerals, because you get the actual function of, and thus the harmonic relationship between, the "vertical simultaneties", rather than a disconnected series of oh this is C/E, this is dm/F this is C/G, this is Gsus 4 this is G7 etc etc.

Offline marikafrank

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Re: I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed
«Reply #4 on: March 27, 2015, 12:26:51 PM »
This is an excellent discussion about how we learn harmony - and how we are able to teach good harmony.

Personally, as a techer,  I find these two books work in the following way:
 
First we learn rather fast to recognize an individual CHORD in BACH´s unbelieveble richness of beautiful - and also very modern - harmonies.

NOTICE: Because the book also analyzes long MODULATIONS and cadences we also get your important functional aspecs of harmonies. Perhaps as much as we can of highest quality from a Bach Chorale, which naturally is rather short. As an answer to your point about function: these Bach Chorales are short but they are excellent teaching materials for learning how harmony function. It is not easy to find a  substitute of this quality ( I´m now professor emeritus and I´ve looked for good books all my life ).

Lastly here: How to get a clear and good voice-leading in our piano playing?
The piano score in these books are in Bach´s beautiful 4-part voicing, where every individual piano voice is an interseting melody ( I often sing a different part while playing). This took me and my students all the way (via WTC I and II) to Bach´s great Die Kunst der Fuge, Art of the Fuge, in a surprisingly natural way - mostly out of pure curiosity and love of Bach´s music from starting with anlyzing the Chorales and then bravely onwards :)

Excuse me, I perhaps got too enthusiastic, just a new book excellent for learning




Offline quantum

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Re: I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed
«Reply #5 on: March 27, 2015, 07:21:53 PM »
IMO, it is important for students to realize that analyses are forms of interpretation, rather than de facto recipes for reproduction - especially for those whom analysis is a new topic.  It is more akin to listening to various performers play a given piece, rather than claiming x performer presents the authentic performance.  Two people may present different analyses for a piece, which doesn't make any one more correct than the other.  With the illumination of this concept students would be better prepared to study analyses such as the topic of this thread.
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline marikafrank

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Re: I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed
«Reply #6 on: March 28, 2015, 07:04:21 PM »
Right you are, Quantum, here are just some thoughts:

After taking your point in consideration, then, naturally, there is an objective part in learning/teaching harmony - to find modulations and cadences.

This book on analyzing is  important because the raw material of Bach is so excellent!

There is a hidden richness here: Bach have a world of genial micro harmonies: ( as a teacher himself he sometimes changes chord on 1/8 notes - even beautifully on 1/16 notes in slower tempi )  - This may not be important at all in my piano-playing, but I am so curious to know how Bach was thinking -  and this book shows all details.

Q:s point is important especially in the book´s analysis of Bach´s modulations.
Here it is true, that analyses are in fact creative -  and  forms of interpretations.
NOTICE: the book has modulations between brackets/parentheses for this reason

TODAY I heard, that this book may sell out this weekend (because of Bach´s 330th birthday now in March 2015 ) Grab a copy if you still can get one - try this link:

http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-413-Chorales-Analyzed/dp/0989087905/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_img_1





Offline j_menz

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Re: I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed
«Reply #7 on: March 28, 2015, 10:27:47 PM »
Is that the faint whiff of frying spam I detect?  :-\
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline Bob

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Re: I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed
«Reply #8 on: March 28, 2015, 11:18:42 PM »
That's what I was thinking.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline marikafrank

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Re: I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed
«Reply #9 on: March 29, 2015, 04:03:59 AM »
OK, my lovely Bob and j_menz,  :-*  faint whiff of frying spam or not-the Bach book

has been a practical help in my personal piano teaching. It is difficult to get now,
and I admit i easily become perhaps too entusiastic when I find something really useful in my life.

Greetings from Stockholm and Scandinavia,  Marika

Offline 8_octaves

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Re: I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed
«Reply #10 on: March 30, 2015, 12:11:02 AM »
Hi Marika,  :)

interesting two volumes, which you mention there!

I read this thread, and the other one, in which you wrote:

Quote
[...]In the library of New York´s  Juillard School in 2013 I found this excellent Bach book:
It has Roman numerial analysis below  - and modern JAZZ CHORDS simultaneously
exactly above the academic numerials in the Bach piano score.
[...]
There is a twin-book, without analyses, but with lot of spaces to pencil in your own harmonizations, alternative voice-leading, modulations and your own personal chords. Then you can compare your own every day maturing thinking  - with Bach.
This book has often 4 - 5 different versions of Bach´s own harmonizations for the same hymn melody - so you quickly learn there is no absolute right, just creativity.

That's very interesting!

The Juilliard library! How exciting!  :D
But why isn't it in the juilcat-opac ? Have they already dismissed the volume(s) ?  :o
__

Via Eurobuch.com (which leads to the 3 Amazon.com - offers, of which one is a fake 999$, )  we also can get in contact with (one of) the publishers ( or better said: traders) directly:

http://www.tfront.com/m-25333-seezar-publications.aspx

(btw.: the tfront-shop seems to have some other interesting things there..)

Maybe the shipping and ordering process will be a bit quicker, then. (Or via the homepage of your second link in the other thread.)-

______

Furthermore, at least the volume

Czarnecki, Christopher: J.S. Bach, 413 chorales analyzed : a study of the harmony of J.S. Bach / Christopher Czarnecki.- [s.l.] : Seezar Publications, cop. 2013.- XX, 452 p. : partituras ; 28 cm.- / Incluye introducción y prefacio. Índices de las corales.- Encuadernado en espiral
ISBN: 978-0-9890879-0-2
is held at the Library of the Universitat d´Alacant / Biblioteca General , Apdo. de Correos 99, 03080 Alicante.

And in some other libraries, e.g. in Indiana, North Dakota, Kentucky, Texas, Republic of Korea, Hong Kong and maybe others.

__

The other volume, the one "without" "analyzed",

413 chorales / Johann Sebastian Bach /   Solvay, NY : Seezar Publications, 2014 / ISBN:    0989087913 or  9780989087919 /
Notes: This edition of Bach's chorales is designed to be easy to use for both performance and study. With a preface and indices.
Description:    1 score (xix, 413 p.) ; 28 cm.
Author: Johann Sebastian Bach ; edited by Christopher Czarnecki.  

is newer, maybe some libraries haven't added it yet. Haven't thoroughly checked.

And there can be a very unpleasant case, namely, because the two volumes are ringbinders, they may be estimated as "loose-leaf-collection", not as "books", so special ( but simple ) cataloging rules would be valid, if so. - And in spite of it, maybe the cataloging in some libraries is in progress and lasts longer.-

If vol. 2 (2014) counts as "book" (and Nr. 1 , of course, too), and libraries get it or have it, then its set of data will be linked to the first "volume", since it counts as "current-more-volume-unit-with-perhaps-more-volumes-to-come" (sry but it's librarian-speech)  8)

I assume, that there are more libraries which already HAVE the volumes, but may not have catalogued both of them yet.-

Cordial greetings from: 8_octaves!  ;)

PS.: Pls note "sine loco" for vol. I, and "Solvay, NY" for vol. II.


"Never be afraid to play before an artist.
The artist listens for that which is well done,
the person who knows nothing listens for the faults." (T. Carreño, quoting her 2nd teacher, Gottschalk.)

Offline Bob

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Re: I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed
«Reply #11 on: March 30, 2015, 02:50:45 AM »
Wasn't there someone on here selling a book on Amazon that was $50?  It looked a little interesting but... $50.....
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline marikafrank

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Re: I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed
«Reply #12 on: March 30, 2015, 09:14:45 AM »
Good morning, 8_octaves, and thank you for your activity and your questions:

You are right, the books spiral bound and are not used in most libraries.
In New York´s Juilliard Scool in 2013 I met the anlyzed book in the Bach project´s handlibrary. I got it as present when the project finished in the Bach studio.

Yes, the exercise book was developed later: At least I got my own last year.

Important here, is that the author of both books is gentle master Chris Czarnecki,
who works from his studio in N.Y. My personal contact with Chris was through his website which is here: http://bachchoraleharmony.com/ Chris is highly gifted as a theorist, but not so practical with self-publishing, he is a gentle, rather shy, scholar.

Yes, I feel, that I am promoting the books, as a teacher,  they do really work.
Perhaps a forum like here, is not the right place, for which I deeply apologize.

Friendly greetings from a sunny Stockholm,
Marika

Offline 8_octaves

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Re: I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed
«Reply #13 on: March 30, 2015, 10:56:43 AM »
Good morning, 8_octaves, and thank you for your activity and your questions:

You are right, the books spiral bound and are not used in most libraries.
In New York´s Juilliard Scool in 2013 I met the anlyzed book in the Bach project´s handlibrary. I got it as present when the project finished in the Bach studio.

Yes, the exercise book was developed later: At least I got my own last year.

Important here, is that the author of both books is gentle master Chris Czarnecki,
who works from his studio in N.Y. My personal contact with Chris was through his website which is here: http://bachchoraleharmony.com/ Chris is highly gifted as a theorist, but not so practical with self-publishing, he is a gentle, rather shy, scholar.

Yes, I feel, that I am promoting the books, as a teacher,  they do really work.
Perhaps a forum like here, is not the right place, for which I deeply apologize.

Friendly greetings from a sunny Stockholm,
Marika

Hi Marika,

I sort of thought something like that (hand-library / "Handapparat" / not catalogued presence-item / special books which aren't catalogued and only if the librarian permits it, it will be given to the customer, etc etc..) .

I myself, when I was in my practical training during studies (major part was in a huge music-library, but I also was trained in "normal" departments of big and small libraries ) , had behind my desk a safe. In the safe there were nonsense-books like some works of A. Crowley. The reason why they were in the safe, were, that many many young people, since the Crowley-stuff was searchable in the opacs, had investigated and went - honestly - the librarians on the nerves, because every day crowds of "a little sinister looking" figures wanted these books.  ;D ;D So the library's boss had spoken a word of might: "Off with them, into the safe, and only if people seem intelligent and acceptable, then give them the book, but only for a short (restricted) time!"

Speaking of the Czarnecki-books / promotion:

What I think, is the following: To promote good stuff is ok! But I also think, this forum, pianostreet, has VERY attent and mindful members, who have long years of experience. When something is promoted too much, it may evoke the "faint smell of spam" j_menz mentioned somewhere, and I think for the 2 books, if matters are the way you pointed out, that's not necessary furthermore:

All interested and intelligent members here, as far as I - as a new member, too - can judge up to now, have noticed the - seemingly good - books now and will take steps to get them, if they are interested to buy or borrow them.

And I hope, Marika, that you will find more other interesting sources of wisdom now (books, media, etc.) , or help in the threads, there are many interested people with questions, as you know, and I think that would be very much appreciated!  :)

Very cordial greetings from Germany,

8_octaves!
"Never be afraid to play before an artist.
The artist listens for that which is well done,
the person who knows nothing listens for the faults." (T. Carreño, quoting her 2nd teacher, Gottschalk.)

Offline marikafrank

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Re: I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed
«Reply #14 on: March 30, 2015, 11:13:35 AM »
Thank you, my dear 8_octaves, your words mean a lot to me.

We need much more of this wisdom and also sharpness in our daily communications

Love, Marika

Offline timeabor

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Re: I found my own "dream as a teacher": J.S. Bach Chorales: Analyzed
«Reply #15 on: May 19, 2016, 03:11:02 AM »
I would like to join Marika, I found my dream book as a student. The two books of Bach chorales just arrived by mail from amazon, and I am planning to start some serious studies from them. I am learning harmony as an adult student, while I restarted leaning the piano in my late 40's. I needed a book what I can use for exercises with the answers available. I am crazy about Bach anyway, when looking for new piano pieces, I am very often ending up with a new Bach piece, I am addicted to it. I do have a teacher who works with me to discuss the problem areas in harmony, buy I spend 90% of the study time myself without a teacher with my books only. If anybody has better ideas what book I can use for self study please give me advice. I am open to any new ideas or information. I am a Hungarian born woman, who lives in the US now, practicing medicine, and in spare time learning music. My expected time to spend with harmony 2-3 hours per week. I have to use this short time wisely.