The Chopin "Art Tatum" etude & other jazz-sounding classical pieces

[cuberdrift]

Recently, I heard the Chopin etude op. 25 no.4 and I was like, "Hey, Chopin knew how to stride?" and I was reminded strongly of Art Tatum's 1949 rendition of "How High The Moon";

Skip to 1:06 (it even seems to be in the same key!):

Could Tatum have borrowed from the Polish genius?  

And does anyone know other classical (not "Mozart" classical, but any classical tradition pieces) pieces that sound distinctly "jazz-like"?

Of course, we have the Beethoven 32nd...and Gershwin, of course...but what other classical pieces sound coincidentally jazz-like? (I remember a Saint-Saens concerto whose name I don't remember...its 3rd movement I think sounded very ragtime-like...does anyone know what piece this is?)

Thanks for reading!

[8_octaves]

Could Tatum have borrowed from the Polish genius?  

Hi cuberdrift,

I think it wouldn't be the only case in which Tatum my have referred to Chopin, but maybe it's more "accidentally", that there are similarities? Who knows.

Referring to Tatum and Chopin, there is the Waltz op. 64,2 , too, and Tatum improvises..:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke2_qob16ls

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Material which sounds very modern, or at least: can be played with modern "spirit" we find in Beethoven's op. 111-Sonata, for example and especially when the L'istesso tempo part starts. But "jazz-like" may be not to 100% the right word, since someone (was it Strawinsky?   cannot exactly remember) called it "Boogie-like"!  But it fits, I think!

skip to ca. 15:10!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7__8bk3l8qY

Cordially, 8_octaves!

PS.: Ah, sry @cuberdrift, I see you mentioned the "Beethoven 32nd" already. I hadn't noticed that. Sry, again!

[mjames]

god forbid classical composers exhibit some sort of rhythmical freedom

[themeandvariation]

Hi.
i notice similar pattern of the stride left hand in Chopin's f minor nocturne…although with a totally different feel…  also the right hand in places has some of the 'improvisatory'..  though in Tatum (with so many cascades) perhaps closer to Liszt….  (which was Chopin's criticism of Liszt..being a little too 'flowery'…. )
Here is  Tatum's (sparkling!) 'tea for two', with score….

…. with the Beethoven rhythm, although can been heard as playful, i think is closer to a 'jig' in the classical sense, than to boogie woogie , though it certainly hits the modern ear as a boogie..
Cheers!

[mjames]

'improvisatory'

You just described 99.99% of Chopin's published works.

[stevensk]

god forbid classical composers exhibit some sort of rhythmical freedom

-THAT could be an intresting thread!

[themeandvariation]

@mjames…  yes, Chopin definitely hits the ear as improvisatory….  as that is how he wanted it to sound….  yet they are scripted in a very fine way…not a note out of place… and not One Note that is not needed... and is the distillation of many previous improvisations….  honed in such a particular way…  
Also, regarding rhythm of classical composers…  it does indeed appear, in a most general way, that the harmonic structure of  of 'western' music evolved more rapidly than it's sense of rhythm… even the meter of 5 wasn't appropriated so much before Dvorak, and Tchaikowsky (Pathetique symphony)….  (though i think Purcell employed 5 … and perhaps there is more of that in renaissance music..)   When we get to Bartok… (string quartets, among others) it seems that that rhythm has indeed caught up….  It seems with Chopin, it is up to the performer to express a little more 'rhythmic freedom' than is shown on the written page…  there is that famous story of Chopin playing a Masurka for someone, and them swearing they are hearing it in 4…

[themeandvariation]

@mjames…99.99%….  remember, chopin Did write a fugue…  (he loved bach)

[joaosousa]

Hey, sometimes I find in the 3rd movement of Rachmaninoff 3rd piano concerto some jazzy sonorities… And Ravel's Piano Concerto also sounds a lot jazzy to me, what do you think?

[themeandvariation]

yes, as it has been said, that the harmonic palette of Debussy, and Ravel  can definitely be seen in jazz

[8_octaves]

Hi,

a 5/4 meter we find, e.g., in Chopin's first sonata.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGnIeGzP7AI

I'm not too sure that we should assume Chopin wanting people to play his works with too much freedom.

Let's remember that he was angry when he heard Liszt playing one of Chopin's works and adding ornamentation. Chopin said: "Can't he play it one single time EXACTLY AS I HAVE WRITTEN it?"

And he got VERY ANGRY in the quarrel with Meyerbeer, as I mentioned in another thread before, when they argued about the C-major-mazurka op.33. ( "It's3/4 !" - "No, 2/4!" - "Noo! 3/4!!" etc... )

Furthermore, it was spotted by lore (and "lore" means in this case: Miss George Sand), that Chopin, e.g. while they all were in Valldemosa, sat very long time at the piano, hours long, writing his ideas down, crossing things out, throwing sheets into the trashcan, modifying other versions, crossing out things again and replacing them, and finally throwing away the latest version, again, and finally deciding to prefer, e.g. a version which he had written down at the beginning!  

And as it was mentioned before, he was very diligent and exact. That's proven fact, as far as we can judge from manuscripts available for public eyes.  

Cordially, 8_oct!

[themeandvariation]

one can hear chords easily appropriated for jazz in Chopin's prelude in e minor.. #4 …  

[visitor]

Mozart could do it too

[themeandvariation]

8 octaves…  'a 5/4 meter we find, e.g., in Chopin's first sonata'. …yes, I was talking in a General sense…. of course there are exceptions…  but do you then wish to assert then that the development of rhythm, meter, … even polyrhythms….  evolved as quickly as the harmonic structure?  just asking …  Cheers.

[8_octaves]

8 octaves…  'a 5/4 meter we find, e.g., in Chopin's first sonata'. …yes, I was talking in a General sense…. of course there are exceptions…  but do you then wish to assert then that the development of rhythm, meter, … even polyrhythms….  evolved as quickly as the harmonic structure?  just asking …  Cheers.

Hi themeandvariation,

to summarize the whole development of "rhythm", or "meter" in comparison to the evolutionary "speed" of harmonic structure is I think too far a field to be discussed in detail here. And I know far too less, to fulfill such a task.

But we shouldn't forget the exceptional status of Chopin. And there ARE for example smaller deflections, which are matter of "feeling" in his works, we call this "rubato", and somebody, who was asked to describe what "rubato" is, answered like this: "Imagine a tree, with its leaves slightly moving by the wind, and behind these leaves, there is the sun, shining her rays of light through the moving leaves..and the glittering you experience then, that's rubato!"

We have moved, as we can see, from "exactly written" things to things which come from the inner feelings or from pictures we imagine. And we can add a very very complex thing, for which Chopin is unique since in him there are concentrated the aforementioned factors valid, plus this very complex one, which is known as "Zal". It's some kind of "melancholy" that's very special.

It should be clear that overacting in these points, while playing Chopins music, could lead to criticism.("uuuh....toooo much rubato.." etc).

Performers did their part, too. They (especially Cortot, and Paderewski) made use of something we would call "asynchronous touch", which some people like, and others not.

We should inspect carefully. That's what I believe in.

But historical evolutionary summaries I cannot give. Sorry.  

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[themeandvariation]

@8 octaves…  loved the 'Larghetto"…  beautiful…  Come to think of it.. although the meter is in 4…. the phrasing of (WTC) Bach's Fugue#8 …is in 10!  (With him, the bar lines, and sense of meter can Sometimes be a bit elusive)

[themeandvariation]

yes, it is up to the performer to provide the (right amount of) rubato…. which allows it to breathe…  and this indeed is a certain way of discussing rhythm…  it being not scripted… as it doesn' t need to be…. 
side point: there is also some argument about when Bach indicated 3 against 4 (when the 4 is a dotted eight followed by a sixteenth, against the 3) that he didn't mean it.. and that the last sixteenth should be played with the last note of the triplet…  saying he was appropriating a type of 'short hand' notation…  i am not entirely convinced…  a great example of which is the Fugue #10 in the 2 book WTC…  (note that he does indeed employ running sixteenths in the theme)

[themeandvariation]

@8 Octaves… "But historical evolutionary summaries I cannot give."  …i didn't think i was saying anything radical…  or expecting a dissertation in response…. (i certainly don't want to erect a formal argument to that subject) …. was just curious about your sense of it.. but i respect your silence on the matter…. (perhaps the subject is too broad and/or not so interesting..) Cheers!

[8_octaves]

@8 Octaves… "But historical evolutionary summaries I cannot give."  …i didn't think i was saying anything radical…  or expecting a dissertation in response…. (i certainly don't want to erect a formal argument to that subject) …. was just curious about your sense of it.. but i respect your silence on the matter…. (perhaps the subject is too broad and/or not so interesting..) Cheers!

And I don't think with our "senses" about such developments we would come very far.   One example which is already a massive obstacle, is the following:

You wanted to hear statements about these developments and their speed. Here already there is a big point of which nobody knows its origins: You mentioned polyrhythm, and polyrhythm is estimated to have its origins and roots in foreign cultures, e.g. and especially, Africa. So it may already have existed thousands of years ago. To specify a secure point from which on facts can be traced until Bartok or Ligeti appear, or even newer composers, is very difficult. And harmonic structures may have existed and evolved parallel to it, since the time the first sounding / resonating materials were spotted by humans who were clever enough to CONNECT the sounds they evoked.

Cheers, too, from: 8_octaves!

[themeandvariation]

Yes, of course… I was referring to Western Classical music….  yes, polyrhythm existed elsewhere… (in fact, that is my point…..  where in other places in the world  there was more a focus on rhythm….Indian classical music being an excellent example….) Yes, there is much odd meter folk music that Bartok explored… (whose roots were from hundreds of years before) and brought it to Western Classical music…  (I don't know why this is such a prickly subject)…  it could be said that  Debussy harmonic sense was influenced by Gamelan music…  the borders were starting to blur, in a big way….
thank you for your response..  Cheerio!

[8_octaves]

@themeandvariation:

Rehi, again.

Ah, I read your answer just now. Thanks for response! Yes, the Gamelan-influence on Debussy was something I read some time ago, in the Harenberg Klaviermusikführer. Interesting!

Some time ago, I researched - just for fun - in a difficult area, namely, the African influence on Creole Music, which is a very very difficult area.

___

But in general, as I said, to follow evolutions and developments isn't easy.


In a way, you are lucky, since in my Diploma-Thesis I wrote a short passus via which it maybe could be made clear how difficult tracing may be. And there's an important point involved in the development of musical structures: Imitation. (But "imitation" itself can be problematic. You mentioned Debussy: Which elements of Gamelan EXACTLY were used by him? And: Which weren't? The same problem did I have, too, when I tried to trace the African elements in Creole music to Gottschalk's works. In some points I succeeded, but very much must rely on...feeling!  )

__

Nevertheless:

I translate the passus from my Diploma-work approximately into English:

[...]Since primeval times the human beings' sensation for sounds exists. Over thousands of years this consciousness for "sound", "auditory event", "tone", "meter", and "rhythm" has been developing further and did often arrive - namely for the particular epoques (medieval time, baroque, classic, romantic etc.) - at a point of apparent "perfection", but this status has never been a final one, and was always subject to transformations.
Humans early learned to recognize the sounds produced by animals, and to differentiate between them, and to imitate them. Humans learned to handle their own voice, too, and to create sounds and tones by using items. So far to the beginnings.-

The joy we experience in music ( i.e.: music in a broader sense ) has been, as we can see, existant already since the beginnings, even if it may have been , then, only ritual functions or communicative functions, which we only under difficulties would count, today, to "music".

Then, much more later, EVALUATIONS appeared on the scene. "Nice", or "not nice". In the classic period (ca. 1730-1830, transitions, of course, blurred), there existed e.g. the opinion, that music should affect people only through, by, and via itself, and that it shouldn't contain further non-musical functions. But classical music, too, always produces subjective feelings like joy, grief, or other similar  nice or sad feelings.

Music itself is a very good chance to communicate, to provoke certain moods, and to offer their essence in style and expression. And not only the personal subjective result of a judgement referring to a musical work can be estimated as a definitive one, but, moreover, music itself can tell very much about the musician, the composer, and the audience. [...]  

Best wishes, 8_octaves!

[themeandvariation]

@8 Octaves… Beautifully said…. to consider music's beginnings..   it is almost to consider the beginning of meaning itself….   Thank you for that walk thru history..
"You mentioned Debussy: Which elements of Gamelan EXACTLY were used by him? And: Which weren't?"….  it is said that he listened for hours…feeling like he was floating on a cloud…  of course, you are aware that the tuning system of gamelan is quite different than  equal temperament.. so …with his use of the pentatonic,  and augmented, or whole tone chords, there is a 'sense' of that 'floating'…   
Yours, in kind, TandV

[8_octaves]

@8 Octaves… Beautifully said…. to consider music's beginnings..   it is almost to consider the beginning of meaning itself….   Thank you for that walk thru history..
"You mentioned Debussy: Which elements of Gamelan EXACTLY were used by him? And: Which weren't?"….  it is said that he listened for hours…feeling like he was floating on a cloud…  of course, you are aware that the tuning system of gamelan is quite different than  equal temperament.. so …with his use of the pentatonic,  and augmented, or whole tone chords, there is a 'sense' of that 'floating'…   
Yours, in kind, TandV

Thank you very much for answer and info! You're welcome!

Good night and "Happy Easter-to-come", wishes: 8_octaves!!

[themeandvariation]

Thanks for the chat..  Happy Easter

[cuberdrift]

Seriously, guys. I can't believe how similar those two are.

Notice how they both do those left hand jumps with an offbeat chord at the right! You HAVE to check those videos out...