Upset at my Jazz Piano Course

[jason_sioco]

I am taking Jazz Piano at York University and I am upset of how the whole year went. I had high expectations for this course. I was thinking "This is it, I am going to be playing like Bill Evans soon" only to be discouraged of how the course went on.

This is not a lengthy novel of my life story but I will explain to you what happened to my Jazz Piano Course. This is not lengthy.

The teacher for this course is Richard Whiteman. He is a brilliant man, but he seems secretive of what he really knows. I wanted to learn jazz piano chord voicings from him and he did teach me some jazz chords. Then I told him that the chords sound boring compared to what the jazz piano players are playing on the recording. Then he told me "Go learn it on your own." Since then our lessons involve only preparing for some playing exam and he downgraded the chords that I'm playing to just literally playing only the 3rd and 7th of a chord. Only two notes.

Then last week I was waiting for my turn then I watched him teach another student. The student is an advanced jazz piano player and he was teaching the student new chord voicings. I was flabbergasted! He teaches a seasoned player new chord voicings, while me who has no background in jazz music and who is willing to learn gets nothing. What's even worst is that, by the time we had lessons, he was eating during the lesson. It was understandable why he was eating, because it was 12:30pm, but I had experience with teachers who are eating during the lesson, and I feel that I am being disrespected. I am hungry to learn and they're eating. What the hell is that?!

It is too late to drop the course. I passed the deadline to drop it. Anyways, I found a jazz piano teacher on the internet and she is rated 5 stars. Hopefully, I will finally learn jazz piano. If not then I will try dissecting chords by ear. I don't want to do it right now because jazz piano chords are too complex for me. I need like a solid foundation to learn the quintessential jazz chords on the piano.

[8_octaves]

I am taking Jazz Piano at York University[...]

[...]while me who has no background in jazz music[...]

Hi Jason,

in a way, I can understand you, and that you are sad and perhaps a bit angry. But I have a question:
You enrolled for jazz piano studies at York University, but then you pointed out that you have no background in jazz music:

Aren't there entrance-examinations for such studies? Because, here ( in Germany) there are. So, people with no jazz-background will face difficulties here, if they try to enroll in jazz-piano ( or: "Jazz-Rock-Pop" ) at colleges / universities / conservatories (music-universities). Do you have "classic" background?
 
Asks, with cordial greetings, 8_octaves!

[jason_sioco]

Yes I auditioned before I took this course, but that was all a waste.

[jason_sioco]

In York University, you can choose to be either a  jazz major or a classical major. My original background is Classical, but I want to try Jazz as my major. I live in Canada and the best place to study Jazz is Humber College, but it is very hard to get in, so I chose York, only to be upset with their jazz program.

[jason_sioco]

When I auditioned to get in at York, I played Classical Pieces.

[8_octaves]

Rehi Jason,

thank you for the replies. As far as I heard, when people are classical trained, and then want to "switch" to jazz, they sometimes find it difficult. And teachers may have spotted, that these "switchers" have a classical, but no jazz background. If that's accepted by your teacher, maybe he, by simplifying stuff (downgrading chords, e.g., as you said ), does this for the purpose to help, but therein not considering the effect on the psychology.-

I read your other thread, too. And I think we should consider the fact, that a new area of interest won't be learned in its full scope quickly.

Look: If I say "Teachers, please teach me quickly to play like Art Tatum or Fats Waller!", then they won't succeed if they start teaching already very difficult content.

But an interesting option for you would, I think, be, that you hire the jazz-teacher you found in the web (but first check her formal education, bio, everything, and talk to her before!! Via talking, many things could perhaps be cleared up a priori). And then take these lessons parallel to your studies. And don't quit the studies at university. That's what I really wouldn't suggest.

Let's shapeshift into the person of your teacher:

I think, your entrance examination, which consisted of classical playing, was very good (otherwise, you wouldn't have passed, I think. Nowadays, only very good "entrancers" pass. The requirements, at least here where I live, have so increased, that my mother's schoolmate, who after her first degree (final examination, in Germany) became pupil of Cortot, said yeeears ago: "When I finished my studies (= in Germany), I played as final examination the HR II of Liszt. But nowadays, one must play such stuff as entrance examination!" - And she said this some 35 years ago, on a jubilee-meeting of their normal schoolclass, to my mother! ).

Your teacher may have thought: "Ok, since all of them are very good, I can start with more difficult stuff," but he didn't realize the problems of "switchers" too well before, so then he "went the mentioned steps backwards".

But it also is possible, that he simply isn't a good teacher, or, more exact: isn't a good psychologist.
Because the effects of communication-style may not be clear to him.

Talk to him, honestly, politely, and sincerely, but hold your standpoint, and ask exactly for the "Whys" and "Whats"! A teacher must in every case be able to answer reason and purpose for his teaching.

Very cordially, 8_octaves!

[pianoguy711]

I guess I'm in the other boat:  Jazz pianist who switched to Classical music.  One tip I can tell you about "complex" chords is that even a simple chord CMaj7 can sound complex depending on how you voice the chord.  Voicing is everything.  If you play C-E-G-B is sounds very plain.  But if you play C-B-E-G you get a more interesting chord.  Also, use your Classical exposure to your advantage.  Even the great Romantics used some complex chords and chord progressions.

[keypeg]

I just finished with a 6 week Coursera course form Berkeley with a professor George W. Russel.  My background is classical, and mostly I took the course because I want to climb out of my boxes.  I got much more out of it than I expected.  The first thing is that for someone with a classical background, it's a whole different world.

The course was at a beginner level, yet at the end assignment some of the participants sounded at least semi-professional to my ear - as far as I can tell with my background.  The beginning of the course is review for any classical student who has had basic theory - simple intervals, the I, IV, V chord - tonic.  But not quite, because you're recognizing these things by ear.  Even as simple a thing as going on the Net and finding a piece in C major by ear, and then grading fellow students' assignments, where you have to listen if the tonic is in C.  How much do we learn to listen?

What startled me was when in the very first lesson I could not readily identify the tonic when he played.  I mean, in classical music I catch the tonic in a heartbeat - but the usual markers were not there.  That's when I realized that I needed to get a whole different set of ears.

Our final assignment was a "simple" one.  We were given a backing track over a 12 bars blues progression, and had to create a riff for it which played for 2 beats, silent for 2 beats, repeats 2 beats, silent 2 beats, and then an answering riff for 2 beats.  The riff was to use the C minor pentatonic scale - a choice of 5 notes.  SIMPLICITY is the point.  I think that maybe the way to go about it is to start simply and build out of it.  Maybe that's how they do it.

The Coursera had a discussion forum and this was a fantastic place of learning and support.  During the last assignment we shared what we were doing, and the experienced folks were giving advice and feedback.  I was struck by one person's assignment: His riff was nothing more than a descending pentatonic minor scale, yet he made it sound amazing.  It had to do with what he did with the rhythm, and even that was subtle - a bit of an early start on the first note so that even though all the notes fell on the beat, it still "swung".

Maybe your teacher thought you wanted to run before you walked, and/or didn't know how to teach someone with a classical education.  I'm wondering - does jazz tend to happen in a community more than just with an individual instructor?  The community atmosphere in this little coursera was warm and encouraging - not like the relative stiffness of "correctness" we seem to have in classical even when people are being helpful.

[jason_sioco]

I'm upset because I want to go far in Jazz Piano. So far no open doors. I am still at the bottom of the musical food chain(if there is one).

I think there is a "hierarchy game" going on in the music world. It's a battle between the amateur, student, and professional. The only way the amateur gets better is when he learns to play by ear and of course practice. The student gets better the same way but the student is dependent on the teacher. The professionals, if they are not famous, end up being teachers. The professionals want their student to remain a student and an amateur remaining an amateur. They do teach, but as long as their is cash involved. Even if their is cash to fill up their bellies, most of the time you will remain on the same level as you started.

I say this because I have been with several music teachers and up to this day I am not even a semi-professional. I live in Mississauga, which is near Toronto. Toronto is a great jazz city, but the musicians and teachers are secretive of their craft.

[Bob]

Don't completely rely on your teacher(s).  You're paying their income so there's an incentive influence there.  If it's a school setting, some students are just there to make it all work, to pay for everyone else.  I've seen profs focus more on some students, and even parts of the system can be set up that way.  But that leaves other students out.

You could get a new teacher.  In person or online.  I don't think beginning jazz actually needs a person in room to get the points across.  There are also a few jazzers on here I believe.

Find more resources.  There are many on here, the standard ones. 

Just do a search on here, on Piano World, maybe google your area and jazz, and see what comes up.

Listening, improvising and playing your own jazz right away, performing with a combo right away, and locking yourself in the practice room for 12 hours a day are some other thoughts that come to mind.

Some are coming back to mind (might help for searching on here)...  Dan Hearle.  There's a Real Easy (I think that's the name) jazz two part series for lead sheets that look like a real book -- Those are the standard teachings pieces I've seen used around many times.

I'm from the classical side.  I added as much jazz as I could for teaching, so beginners and middle schoolers would be set as much as possible.


There's always talking to your teacher.  Ask what the plan is (if they even have one).  Find out what their plan is for the next semester or two.  Then possibly ask if you can bump that up.  I've found it's more of the first exposure and not perfection so much that's more important to me sometimes.  Get Level A  *AND* Level B going, as opposed to perfecting Level A.  If the teacher wants Level A at a level you're not going to get to, you never get to B.  And then when you do start on B, you're at an earlier stage than you could have been than if you had at least gotten exposed to it earlier.

[Petter]

I used to buy a lot of books, now I'm totally against them, with that said, please check these two out: https://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Piano-Book-Mark-Levine/dp/0961470151
https://www.amazon.com/Connecting-Chords-Linear-Harmony-Jazz/dp/0793561930/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428258162&sr=1-3&keywords=bert+ligon

I don't know how much sense a beginner can make out of them, but they helped me at crucial stages. The first book teaches voicings and the 2nd book is more about creating jazz lines with good voice leading etc. Work through the concepts alone and turn to your teacher when things are unclear.
 There are so many (free) teaching resources online nowadays, it shouldn't be too hard to get started. This guy has some nice tutorials e.g.

And jazz is just as tough as classical, don't expect results just after one term. It's a life long endeavour.

[anamnesis]

I used to buy a lot of books, now I'm totally against them, with that said, please check these two out: https://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Piano-Book-Mark-Levine/dp/0961470151
https://www.amazon.com/Connecting-Chords-Linear-Harmony-Jazz/dp/0793561930/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428258162&sr=1-3&keywords=bert+ligon

I don't know how much sense a beginner can make out of them, but they helped me at crucial stages. The first book teaches voicings and the 2nd book is more about creating jazz lines with good voice leading etc. Work through the concepts alone and turn to your teacher when things arestarted. This guy has some nice tutorials e.g.

And jazz is just as tough as classical, don't expect results just after one term. It's a life long endeavour.  unclear.
 There are so many (free) teaching resources online nowadays, it shouldn't be too hard to get

Jazz isn't my idiom, but I'm curious why you are against them.

[Petter]

because they are expensive! 

[dcstudio]

I went to UNT and studied Jazz with Dan Haerle.  Like you--I was classical all the way until I got there.    I thought there was a book or a course that would teach me to be a jazzer---lol--there is none.   All the course does is prepare you to learn to play.  My chops weren't solid until I started playing for a living.   Just imagine a 3 hour gig--with only you and a piano.   Classical players shake in their shoes at the thought of it.   No sheet music...and people with requests...lol.  That will force you to get your act together quick.

I understand completely how you feel--that being said--maybe I can provide a bit of insight.  I too  found jazz a complete mystery.   I did not,however, have any expectations of playing like Bill Evans after a semester or two of jazz lessons.

to quote Bill Evans:

"jazz is not an intellectual process, we use out intellect to understand it, but it takes years and years of practice to forget all of that and just play."


the "shell" voicings --  just do it--it works, I promise.   He is teaching the advanced player the sub chords and extensions because that player already has mastered comping with only the 3rd and 7th.  This is they way I was taught as well.  My suggestion is to track down the other student and have him explain it.   You are in music school--surrounded by monster players--and you think the only one who can teach you is your professor.   I understand how competitive things are--I went through it, too--but jazz players love to explain what it is they are doing!!!  Ask the sax players, too--don't limit yourself to just the pianists.  

funny--as a beginning classical player I am sure you had no expectations of playing Liszt right off the bat.   You would not have been angry if your teacher was giving a more advanced student a more advanced lesson.

why do you think jazz should be any different in that regard?

[pianoplunker]

I say this because I have been with several music teachers and up to this day I am not even a semi-professional. I live in Mississauga, which is near Toronto. Toronto is a great jazz city, but the musicians and teachers are secretive of their craft.

How is Toronto a great jazz city if musicians and teachers are secretive of their craft ?
It looks like from your posts here that you dont understand Jazz yet. But dont feel bad towards yourself , let alone others. It is a whole different level of music and takes time time time.  For now, what can you do with G7 to C ? Can you make music with those ? Lots of people have

[Bob]

Missed that part.  I would say all the jazz people I've met have been very open.  Way more than classical.  More like recruiting people to the jazz side.

You don't have to buy that stuff though.  Just check it out from the library and peruse what you want.

[eldergeek]

I am a bit baffled, Jason, by your statement:

It's a battle between the amateur, student, and professional. The only way the amateur gets better is when he learns to play by ear and of course practice. The student gets better the same way but the student is dependent on the teacher. The professionals, if they are not famous, end up being teachers. The professionals want their student to remain a student and an amateur remaining an amateur. They do teach, but as long as their is cash involved. Even if their is cash to fill up their bellies, most of the time you will remain on the same level as you started.

You seem to have a very negative idea of teachers and their motivation, which is very much at odds with my experiences of teachers of music and of other subjects.

Given that you also seem to have similar problems with your drum teacher, I would suggest that (unless you have been very unlucky with choice of teachers) the problem might be more to do with your approach, rather than that of the teachers.

[stoat_king]

Its clear you are passionate about jazz.
Its also clear you are very impatient.

Good luck. I hope you find what you seek.
I sense that when you do, it will be inside yourself and not in the teacher.

[dcstudio]

, what can you do with G7 to C ? Can you make music with those ? Lots of people have

lol...yeah they're called guitarists...   sorry--ya kinda left yourself open for that one.

[jason_sioco]

How is Toronto a great jazz city if musicians and teachers are secretive of their craft ?
It looks like from your posts here that you dont understand Jazz yet. But dont feel bad towards yourself , let alone others. It is a whole different level of music and takes time time time.  For now, what can you do with G7 to C ? Can you make music with those ? Lots of people have

Just go the Rex in Toronto and you'll find a lot of good jazz musicians.

It's true I don't understand Jazz and I want to learn, but nobody is teaching me. I came from a classical background where I am forced to do RCM exams. I hated those days. Since I am locked up and dependent on music sheets, it's tough for me to do impromptu and just improvise. I am not used to that.

I want to improvise as well and I have an idea of chord tones used in improvisation. What can I do with a G7 and C? I can play the chord tones of the chords and I am a bit discreet on adding auxiliary and passing notes.

What I want to learn are chord voicings. I want to play by ear, but any jazz chord voicing are complex to me. I need like a teacher to give me a foundation on jazz chords.

I studied theory and harmony by the way.

[jason_sioco]

Don't completely rely on your teacher(s).  You're paying their income so there's an incentive influence there.  If it's a school setting, some students are just there to make it all work, to pay for everyone else.  I've seen profs focus more on some students, and even parts of the system can be set up that way.  But that leaves other students out.

You could get a new teacher.  In person or online.  I don't think beginning jazz actually needs a person in room to get the points across.  There are also a few jazzers on here I believe.

I am definitely getting a new teacher. When the year started, my teacher was supposed to be Steve Koven, but because of issues with the schedule (I was taking 5 courses at that time) I have to stick with Richard Whiteman. In my experience, Richard Whiteman is a brilliant man and musician, but he is a bad teacher.

[jason_sioco]

I used to buy a lot of books, now I'm totally against them, with that said, please check these two out: https://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Piano-Book-Mark-Levine/dp/0961470151
https://www.amazon.com/Connecting-Chords-Linear-Harmony-Jazz/dp/0793561930/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428258162&sr=1-3&keywords=bert+ligon

I don't know how much sense a beginner can make out of them, but they helped me at crucial stages. The first book teaches voicings and the 2nd book is more about creating jazz lines with good voice leading etc. Work through the concepts alone and turn to your teacher when things are unclear.
 There are so many (free) teaching resources online nowadays, it shouldn't be too hard to get started. This guy has some nice tutorials e.g.

And jazz is just as tough as classical, don't expect results just after one term. It's a life long endeavour.

I don't think books are comprehensive enough to teach you jazz chord voicings. I scourged everywhere in the internet and the only good books I can find is the Tritone Pop Keyboard Course. There is no good book for jazz chord voicings.

[jason_sioco]

I am a bit baffled, Jason, by your statement:

You seem to have a very negative idea of teachers and their motivation, which is very much at odds with my experiences of teachers of music and of other subjects.

Given that you also seem to have similar problems with your drum teacher, I would suggest that (unless you have been very unlucky with choice of teachers) the problem might be more to do with your approach, rather than that of the teachers.

I learned music theory and harmony from a very good professor in college. I remember doing all my theory tests this year in University, I ended up being exempted from some of the portions of the class as with some of the other students.

I have the capacity to learn. There is nothing wrong with my approach. 

[j_menz]

Seems to me you're ignoring the possibility that the secrets to great playing you think you're not being taught are precisely the things you are being taught.

In this case, that the true secret to great jazz chord voicing lies not in the complexity of the chord, but in what you do with the elements - and that learning to do this in it's simplest forms will underpin an ability to do it better once complexity is added.

If there are secrets, you as a student, and a relative beginner, shouldn't assume you know what they are.

[8_octaves]

I don't think books are comprehensive enough to teach you jazz chord voicings. I scourged everywhere in the internet and the only good books I can find is the Tritone Pop Keyboard Course. There is no good book for jazz chord voicings.

Hi Jason. As pointed out by others before, there's no simple way to quickly learn the jazz-stuff, I think. And books are, as we know, not always good, and good jazzers will always say: "Via a book one cannot learn jazz, because there's very much feeling and improvisation, which cannot be found in books." And since my knowledge about jazz is near ZERO, I seemingly don't even know the basics' basics. But books do exist, so I used a "combined headword" search, but leaving all other search-fields empty... .
Some results -I selected some and list them as follows, - are perhaps "even more" insufficient, since their quality cannot be judged by me: Perhaps they are bad? But, on the other hand, perhaps people on the forum who have these books can evaluate whether they can be useful at least for a while, as an "additive" to lessons, or not?

Stuart, Walter: 1500 chord progressions :
 a reference book for pianists, organists, guitarists, songwriters, arrangers.
New York : Charles Colin, c1958.
20 pages of music ; 31 cm.
"All popular music can be harmonized with the chord progressions in this book."
Top.Subj.: Jazz -- Studies and exercises / Improvisation (Music) / Chords (Music)
_______________

Jazz and Gospel Harmony and Performance for Non-Readers (The 7 Secrets of Jazz and Soul)

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/189-8655996-6674410?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Jazz+and+Gospel+Harmony+and+Performance+for+Non-Readers

_______________

[ UST Jazz piano chord voicings vol. 1: Individual upper structures triads over IIM7 and V7 ] by Ramos, Ariel J ( Author )Aug-31-2011 ( Paperback )
[ UST Jazz piano chord voicings vol. 2 TO 9 compact: All possible upper structure triads in a IIM7 V7 progression ] By Ramos, Ariel J ( Author )Nov-02-2011 ( Paperback )

https://www.amazon.de/JAZZ-PIANO-CHORD-VOICINGS-COMPACT/dp/B00F3ZW9X8%3FSubscriptionId%3D0H7E2ABGRZR51KQBN202%26tag%3Duniversitat09-21%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3DB00F3ZW9X8

________________

The Jazz harmony book : a course in adding chords to melodies / by David Berkman.
Course in adding chords to melodies.
Petaluma, CA : Sher Music Co., [2013]
vi, 206 s. ;  28 cm +  2 CD-äänilevyä.

_________________

Keller, Gary:
The jazz chord / scale handbook : a comprehensive organizational guide to scales and chords found in jazz and contemporary music / Gary Keller.
Rev. and enl. ed.
[Mainz] : Advance Music, Đ 2002.
111 s.

________________

Look at these 2: They are downloadable:

https://archive.org/details/SecretsOfJazzArrangingRevealed

https://archive.org/details/SecretsOfChordSubsRevealed

______________

Insights in jazz: an inside view of jazz standard chord progressions
Elliott, John A.
London ; Jazzwise ; 2009 ; XII, 68 S.
Chords (Music) ; Instruction and study ; Jazz ; Jazz improvisation (1984) ; Mehegan, John ; Music theory
ISBN: 978-0-9564031-0-0

Cordial greetings, 8_oct!

[outin]

I have the capacity to learn. There is nothing wrong with my approach. 

I have no doubt the former is true, but I suspect the second statement may reflect your real issue. People learn from less perfect teachers as well, but it's difficult to learn from any teacher if one goes in with the mindset of " THIS is what I want you to teach me NOW". And blames the teacher immediately when things get a bit rough.

[dcstudio]

.
 The professionals want their student to remain a student and an amateur remaining an amateur.
musicians and teachers are secretive of their craft.

yeah it's a big conspiracy...     we have meetings and everything

[pianoplunker]

I learned music theory and harmony from a very good professor in college. I remember doing all my theory tests this year in University, I ended up being exempted from some of the portions of the class as with some of the other students.

I have the capacity to learn. There is nothing wrong with my approach. 

You might be relying too much on teachers and professors and the "school" format. Nothing wrong with school but you can also learn huge things by casual conversations with other musicians and hanging out at jams or open mics. It is not about your approach, it is about opening up to different approaches. Think of Jazz as something that is open to whatever approach you want to take.

[Petter]

I don't think books are comprehensive enough to teach you jazz chord voicings. I scourged everywhere in the internet and the only good books I can find is the Tritone Pop Keyboard Course. There is no good book for jazz chord voicings.

No you can't learn everything from a book, but you can learn a great deal - and you obviously don't know what you're looking for, try this for starters https://www.scribd.com/doc/113932875/Bill-Evans-Piano-Interpretations - there's really no excuse for not doing the hard work.
 As to ear training and picking up voicings from records: that is a tough skill to acquire unless you have supersonic ears, but it can be done. Knowing your theory is a great help since it can help you rule out certain possibilities.
 There's a lot of ear training software and resources online as well, but don't expect any miraculous results. Im at it after twenty years and it's still not easy…

[creationrage]

You can create your own chord voicings. Play the 1 7 3 (2 hands) or 1 3 7 (1 or 2 hands) and then add color tones, and try to avoid too much repetition. For example, CM7 could be C B E (1 7 3) A D (color tones 13 and 9) or C E B (1 3 7) D G A (9 5 13). Down low you can start with 1 5 3. You don't need a book!

For rootless voicings, I use F-A-B-E and B-E-F-A all the time (these are Bill Evans voicings). FABE can be FM7#11, D-6, B-7b5 (voiced with the 4th instead of 3rd), G7 9 13, Db7alt (tritone sub of G7), and E Phrygian. Since BEFA is an inversion, it can be the same chords. Also I use FACE (and inversions) for FM7, D-7 9, G7sus, and BbM7#11. Learn these in different keys (I learned them by using them in tunes while practicing), but practice each voicing until it becomes muscle memory. If you get impatient and move on before you have mastered a chord, you won't learn it and it won't come out in your playing! That's the real secret to improving.

When you play sheet music, which part of the song is usually the best? I bet it's the beginning, because you have played it the most. Make each chord like the beginning of the song.

[jason_sioco]

Seems to me you're ignoring the possibility that the secrets to great playing you think you're not being taught are precisely the things you are being taught.

In this case, that the true secret to great jazz chord voicing lies not in the complexity of the chord, but in what you do with the elements - and that learning to do this in it's simplest forms will underpin an ability to do it better once complexity is added.

If there are secrets, you as a student, and a relative beginner, shouldn't assume you know what they are.

If that's the case, then I would be a good jazz pianist by now, I would have it figured out that what he is teaching is good for me.

When I listen to jazz music in recordings is far from different what my teacher was teaching me.

The mistake of my teacher is that he didn't go any further on the chord voicing lesson. I started lessons with him in September and I didn't see him for a while because he got some gig in Yukon for a week and there was a holiday the next week. By October, I wanted to learn more chord voicings from him and he started exhorting to learn chord voicing on my own. Since then we just spend time preparing for some playing exam. Full of s****.

[Bob]

Probably... He gets paid the same no matter what.  If you learn something, great.  If not... He's still getting paid, and other students will come along. 

[dcstudio]

If that's the case, then I would be a good jazz pianist by now,
 
 I started lessons with him in September

what on Earth made you think that any teacher could teach you how to be a good jazz pianist in 6 months?  Seriously? that's insulting.

 You really have no idea what you are in for.

Jazz is hard

that's why most classical pianists give up... or never even try.

you are not going to be one of those students who blames their teacher are you?  
"Oh, I would have been able to play great jazz piano but my teacher didn't know how to teach." --can't tell you how many times I have heard that line over the years.  lol.

and your teacher is right---you do have to figure it out on your own

ultimately they are your chops--and it's your career.  






  

[jason_sioco]

what on Earth made you think that any teacher could teach you how to be a good jazz pianist in 6 months?  Seriously? that's insulting.

 You really have no idea what you are in for.

Jazz is hard

that's why most classical pianists give up... or never even try.

you are not going to be one of those students who blames their teacher are you?  
"Oh, I would have been able to play great jazz piano but my teacher didn't know how to teach." --can't tell you how many times I have heard that line over the years.  lol.

and your teacher is right---you do have to figure it out on your own

ultimately they are your chops--and it's your career.  

There I have done it...a while ago I dropped the course. Never taking a jazz piano course in York University again.

I don't expect myself to be great in six months, but if the teacher gave me good material to practice during 6 months I could have gained a whole lot of ground.

So you are saying a beginner jazz pianist like me, who has no background in jazz music, but is dedicated and motivated gets to learn it on my own, while a seasoned and advanced jazz pianists, who barely go every week to his course, gets spoon fed with new chord voicings and a wealth of practice material?!

[dcstudio]

apologies...

I was right where you are and that's why your post has made me a bit---testy.

the advanced jazz students speak the language---that's it in a nutshell. He teaches them advanced concepts because they understand them.    There really is no chord voicing--or wealth of practice material that really makes you a player.

look...  put on Bill Evans---I like Night and Day--but pick your favorite.   Sit down and play along with the recording...figure out what he is doing.  You can play by ear--right?  That's how you learn jazz

Jamie Aebersold records were responsible for an entire generation of jazzers learning how to solo and comp.  my teacher, Dan Haerle, played piano on those recordings..   try those.

you have the internet and youtube with videos of the greats playing--so much information just there waiting.  we had none of that.

don't give up on jazz ...  if it was easy well then everyone would do it.

[pianoplunker]

you have the internet and youtube with videos of the greats playing--so much information just there waiting.  we had none of that.

don't give up on jazz ...  if it was easy well then everyone would do it.

Yes, being able to hear a recording at the click of a mouse is way cool compared to having to physically go to every record store looking for a recording of Indiana Stomp by Montana Taylor.
I was born 20 years B.C. ( Before Computers ) so I remember very well the challenge of just finding a recording to listen to. More of a pain is that we often had to buy collections in order to hear the one recording we cared about.  Jazz is in its own level so being able to hear several different musicians play the same tune can be very educational if you let it.

[dcstudio]

  Jazz is in its own level so being able to hear several different musicians play the same tune can be very educational if you let it.

absolutely... even those tutorial videos can be very helpful....some of them, anyway.

but it's just all laid out for you now... with the smallest amount of initiative you can find anything you want to know about jazz--for free.   there are backing tracks, commentary, and transcriptions of everything... entire concerts by Bill Evans, Oscar Peterson, Bud Powell...every great pianist of every genre is up there.

all you have to do is watch listen and learn.

to the OP:  I was very angry at first, too.  It was very frightening to me that I seemed incapable of understanding this stuff when everyone around me seemed to get it just fine.   

I dropped out of music school in my senior year to deal at a casino.  I didn't touch a piano for 3 years.   i finally went out one day and bought a piano and started playing again..  About a month later the casino my husband and I were working at changed hands and we both lost our jobs--just like that.   The next morning I got a call from a lady who told me we had won $5k in music equipment. (a raffle I had entered 6 months earlier..)    The day after that--my husband got us a gig at a restaurant.

so stuff happens you know.

[jason_sioco]

I understand that listening to recordings is what you end up doing. Right now when I listen to any chord, it sounds too complex to me. I need a jazz piano teacher to give me a foundation to identify complex chords simpler.

I am also on the same boat, when it comes to technology. When I was a kid, I had no access to internet and there was no Youtube at that time. I didn't even know what an Internet was at that time.

[dcstudio]

I feel for you...   so I am going to share one of my secrets.  



Vince Guaraldi.   You probably know him from the Peanuts specials--but he did so much more.   He is the reason I can now play jazz.   He idolized Bill Evans--but Vince's stuff is much simpler,  When I heard it I thought..."now that I can play."  


Anyway--Vince's music really helped me to gain a lot of confidence.   Linus and Lucy was the first tune I played on my first paying jazz gig--to this day it is still a crowd pleaser--I always turn heads with that one.

there is way more to my Vince story... but it's too much to post here.

...that being said, I would like to introduce you to my greatest jazz teacher... I still learn from him even though he's been dead for nearly 40 years.

Vince     

  --a live performance from a TV show in '63.  Watch his hands
  


oh... here is my first Vince-vid...from 8 years ago.  316k hits...and it's not because of the awesomeness of the performance...lol   people just love his music.

[jason_sioco]

I recently got money from the government. I think it has something to do with my disability, I have Asperger's Syndrome and no job. I was able to get $73.15 and I took advantage of it and purchased two music books and a book about drawing on the right side of the brain.

Forgot to mention, I also took art classes and I didn't learn anything. The students in the class are mostly already expert at drawing and the teachers just ride on with the capability of most students. A disadvantage for me, who is a beginner at drawing. The only positive thing about those art classes is that since everyone is already good at drawing that really pushed me to draw, because I don't want to appear demented and inferior, plus I was sitting beside beautiful and young girls in those classes, that pushed me and I became decent at drawing. I was slow, but I was drawing okay.

I seem to have a good grasp, when the instruction is placed on a book or a dvd, because you can re-read and rewind it again. Most of the time I learn it once and I understand, but I have been with piano teachers, who explains a concept in the most weird way. For example, dynamics. I didn't play the dynamics very well and the teacher could just explain that the problem was the dynamics. Those teachers end up explaining all kinds of poetic allegories and fantasy stories to explain that I had a problem with dynamics.

Why not just explain the correction in a simple way?

[dcstudio]

a book about drawing on the right side of the brain.

     it's so odd that you should mention that...lol

 that book is awesome...   changed my way of thinking.   I am a visual artist as well----well it's a hobby, anyway. After reading that book I realized  that I improvise from the right side of the brain when I play.  That I kind of shut out the world and let my fingers play what I am hearing in my head much in the same way I focus in when I am drawing or more often, painting these days. (watercolors) It's the same concept she talks about over and over in that book.

she says to turn the picture upside down so you don't try and draw a symbol--like a face...When you play---  you have to forget it's jazz--it has it's set symbol in your head, too.  Just play what you hear....

that's a tough concept to explain--but if you've read the book it's easy to understand.

does it make sense to you?

[jason_sioco]

I am excited to get the book by Betty Edwards. I only bought the book for drawing purposes, never realized that you can apply it to music. Play what you hear, eh? I'm a dry, logical person, so I'm a left-brained musician. When I am playing by ear, I always feel that some one just shook me in the head and I just solved a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle. My head feels like it is tasered, after I am playing by ear.

I also bought the book Melody in Songwriting by Jack Perricone. I found several books about melody and decided that this book by Perricone is the best. If the examples in the book contains Lennon, McCartney, & Dianne Warren, it has to be a great book for melody.

[dcstudio]

I always feel that some one just shook me in the head and I just solved a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle. My head feels like it is tasered, after I am playing by ear.
.

lol...you say that like it's a bad thing.   

That logical side of the brain doesn't like it when you "let go" and play by ear--that's why it feels so exhausting...because you are fighting with your own mind.  Just like in the book--if you try to defeat it directly, you will lose. 

I used to tell my students to "pretend" they are improvising.   In the same way you can speak jibberish and "pretend" it's Russian.  That left-brain logic will allow you make believe you can do anything.

close your eyes, put your hands on the black keys and just play like you are at Carnegie Hall and every note is perfect.  There does not need to be any rhyme or reason to your improv at first--only a steady tempo.  Just get used to putting your hands on the piano and letting them play.   Tell yourself you are only pretending--if you can, make a recording and listen to it a few days later when you have forgotten what you played...you will be quite surprised

I have had amazing results with this.

[jason_sioco]

lol...you say that like it's a bad thing.   

That logical side of the brain doesn't like it when you "let go" and play by ear--that's why it feels so exhausting...because you are fighting with your own mind.  Just like in the book--if you try to defeat it directly, you will lose. 

I used to tell my students to "pretend" they are improvising.   In the same way you can speak jibberish and "pretend" it's Russian.  That left-brain logic will allow you make believe you can do anything.

close your eyes, put your hands on the black keys and just play like you are at Carnegie Hall and every note is perfect.  There does not need to be any rhyme or reason to your improv at first--only a steady tempo.  Just get used to putting your hands on the piano and letting them play.   Tell yourself you are only pretending--if you can, make a recording and listen to it a few days later when you have forgotten what you played...you will be quite surprised

I have had amazing results with this.

I didn't say it's a bad thing. My mind feels numb after playing by ear or at least that's what it feels like. I feel relaxed and satisfied after playing by ear.

Hey dcstudio, the books that I ordered at amazon finally came. I know books are helpful, but is it true that one book can have a magic formula that will solve all your problems and make a difference?

[dcstudio]

on book that solves all your problems?  I haven't heard of one.

I did have that "aha" moment after reading "drawing on the right side of the brain" but I didn't become a better player overnight or anything.

let me know if you find one...  I would buy it.

[jason_sioco]

on book that solves all your problems?  I haven't heard of one.

I did have that "aha" moment after reading "drawing on the right side of the brain" but I didn't become a better player overnight or anything.

let me know if you find one...  I would buy it.

I had my exams right now, I'm not able to do the things I like to do. Don't worry tomorrow Friday is my last day.

I hope I have my "aha" moment. I'm in a drought. I haven't had an "aha" moment in a long time.

[louispodesta]

I just finished with a 6 week Coursera course form Berkeley with a professor George W. Russel.  My background is classical, and mostly I took the course because I want to climb out of my boxes.  I got much more out of it than I expected.  The first thing is that for someone with a classical background, it's a whole different world.

The course was at a beginner level, yet at the end assignment some of the participants sounded at least semi-professional to my ear - as far as I can tell with my background.  The beginning of the course is review for any classical student who has had basic theory - simple intervals, the I, IV, V chord - tonic.  But not quite, because you're recognizing these things by ear.  Even as simple a thing as going on the Net and finding a piece in C major by ear, and then grading fellow students' assignments, where you have to listen if the tonic is in C.  How much do we learn to listen?

What startled me was when in the very first lesson I could not readily identify the tonic when he played.  I mean, in classical music I catch the tonic in a heartbeat - but the usual markers were not there.  That's when I realized that I needed to get a whole different set of ears.

Our final assignment was a "simple" one.  We were given a backing track over a 12 bars blues progression, and had to create a riff for it which played for 2 beats, silent for 2 beats, repeats 2 beats, silent 2 beats, and then an answering riff for 2 beats.  The riff was to use the C minor pentatonic scale - a choice of 5 notes.  SIMPLICITY is the point.  I think that maybe the way to go about it is to start simply and build out of it.  Maybe that's how they do it.

The Coursera had a discussion forum and this was a fantastic place of learning and support.  During the last assignment we shared what we were doing, and the experienced folks were giving advice and feedback.  I was struck by one person's assignment: His riff was nothing more than a descending pentatonic minor scale, yet he made it sound amazing.  It had to do with what he did with the rhythm, and even that was subtle - a bit of an early start on the first note so that even though all the notes fell on the beat, it still "swung".

Maybe your teacher thought you wanted to run before you walked, and/or didn't know how to teach someone with a classical education.  I'm wondering - does jazz tend to happen in a community more than just with an individual instructor?  The community atmosphere in this little coursera was warm and encouraging - not like the relative stiffness of "correctness" we seem to have in classical even when people are being helpful.

I am strictly a classical pianist, but I never got theory or ear training down.  So, in desperation, I went to Berklee's online university, which has over 30,000 students worldwide.

It was phenomenal because their philosophy of pedagogy at Berklee, regardless of the course, is to get the student from point A to point B.  And, they are not good at this, they are great at it!

Therefore, get yourself to their online website, and don't forget to peruse the theory courses in addition to jazz piano.  You can matriculate for credit or non-credit, however, I am partial to Roberta Radley who teaches the ear training course.

The lady had a very hard time with theory as a student, so she understands what is hard for some students.  Plus, if you can get a video of her ensemble, she is the best scat singer on the planet earth.

And, for the record, if I had a teacher eat their lunch during my lesson, that is exactly what they would be doing after I got through with them.  No class, absolutely no class!

[jason_sioco]

I was planning to take jazz piano lessons with Amanda Tosoff, but then I saw a picture of her playing with Richard Whiteman, who was my jazz piano teacher at York. Who knows? Richard Whiteman was probably a good teacher, but he was not a good teacher to me. If Amanda Tosoff and Richard Whiteman are connected, as with my drum teacher, Greg Wilkinson and Richard Whiteman are connected; then they are just a bunch of bad teachers, who will teach half-heartedly. Waste of Money.

I will have Jazz Piano Lessons. Not from my school, but actually from the pastor in my church. My pastor is a professional musician and music teacher. Right now, he is checking his schedule of when he is available. While that is being finalized, I know how my pastor teaches. He will teach you things that are used in a real musical environment. He wants his students to develop and master their instruments.

I never heard him play jazz piano, but I sometimes hear him playing keyboard and the chords he is using has elements of jazz, but not completely. One day I asked him, if he can teach jazz piano, he said, "I can, just show me a recording and I'll figure it out for you."

Stay tuned...

[Bob]

What about a grad student jazz piano teacher?

[jason_sioco]

What about a grad student jazz piano teacher?

If you are talking about jazz piano teachers in my school, I had enough of them and sick of it. It will be basically the same format. If I want to learn something, they will tell me to go learn it on my own and the full year course is just spent on preparing for an exam.

Getting a credit, with no radical transformation in my playing is just useless. While I was taking the jazz piano course in my school, I was getting an A+, but I still decided to drop the course, because I was upset with the outcome.