Waldstein Technique

[oullman7130]

Hi, I'm playing the first movement of the Waldstein Sonata and having a lot of trouble with the left hand tremolos at the beginning of the piece. These happen right before the running sixteenth section that happens in both hands. My problem is I have a lack of control over these, so I can't change them very much dynamically, and am trying to stop playing the bottom two notes too loudly, but don't know how.
It begins at measure 19 in the left hand if you need to find it, you can just google it as its on most editions first page.
Also any advice on any technique troubles you had on this piece would be much appreciated 

[mjames]

All i can advice is use your wrists, and practice it really slowly. Take your time.

[faulty_damper]

Here's one simple thing you can do that makes it drastically easier to play: raise the wrist.

[pianoplayer002]

The wrist should be allowed to remain in a neutral position, and especially in such a basic technical problem such as this one there is no need for unorthodox positions when basic technique does just fine.

Practise it, making sure your fingers are active (that they are actually moving to press down the key and not just held stiffly) and that your hand is not tense. The wrist should be absolutely free and loose. Practise so slow that you can get EXACTLY the sound you want (listen very critically), while at the same time being able to maintain this complete freedom in the hand and arm.

Be patient, practise with a calm mind, and speed will come. Your brain needs to make the transition back and forth between the fingers a natural reflex that you don't have to think about. It's when you try to force a faster speed than you are capable that you lose control and get tense.

[michael_c]

Forearm rotation is essential for playing this passage (or indeed any tremolo that alternates between two notes). It can be practised both at the piano and away from it. If you're unsure how to go about it, don't hesitate to ask more questions.

[michael_c]

Here's a good video that goes through the learning process for tremolos step for step. He's using the Pathétique sonata as an exemple, but you can work on this passage in the Waldstein in exactly the same manner.

[mjames]

The wrist should be allowed to remain in a neutral position, and especially in such a basic technical problem such as this one there is no need for unorthodox positions when basic technique does just fine.

Someone else already mentioned it but by using your wrist i meant the forearms too. In my case, if I just use the fingers i get exhausted but if i add a little bit of rotation with my wrists and forearms it ends up feeling a lot more comfortable.

[pianoplayer002]

Someone else already mentioned it but by using your wrist i meant the forearms too. In my case, if I just use the fingers i get exhausted but if i add a little bit of rotation with my wrists and forearms it ends up feeling a lot more comfortable.

My comment was directed at faulty_damper's raised wrist thing more than you.

Most likely you try to "feel out" that you are using just your fingers, and as a consequence you restrict the rest of the mechanism in order to do so. You are wiggling around the fingers with too much effort, so to speak. They should remain in contact with the key surface at all times. If all the joints of the arm are free, at all times, there WILL be movement in the wrist, so you must allow the arm the follow the fingers where they want to go. It should feel like the fingertips are heavy and sinking down with the key while everything else is allowed to be passive and follows.
If we both are able to tremolo without fatigue then we are doing the same thing even if we think about the way we do it differently. I'm giving a different perspective because for me "use your arm" always caused trouble; I would replace the finger action with arm action, resulting in tension and stiffness.

[anamnesis]

My comment was directed at faulty_damper's raised wrist thing more than you.

Most likely you try to "feel out" that you are using just your fingers, and as a consequence you restrict the rest of the mechanism in order to do so. You are wiggling around the fingers with too much effort, so to speak. They should remain in contact with the key surface at all times. If all the joints of the arm are free, at all times, there WILL be movement in the wrist, so you must allow the arm the follow the fingers where they want to go. It should feel like the fingertips are heavy and sinking down with the key while everything else is allowed to be passive and follows.
If we both are able to tremolo without fatigue then we are doing the same thing even if we think about the way we do it differently. I'm giving a different perspective because for me "use your arm" always caused trouble; I would replace the finger action with arm action, resulting in tension and stiffness.

Well it depends on what you mean by use your arm.  The mistake with arm use is to constantly be bearing down, when actually you have to learn how to play "up" with the arm.

You should still be able to take key drop because your hand is active and your shoulder girdle still keeps the playing mechanism down. The arm is raised at the elbow via flexion using the brachioradialis and yet you should still be produce tone. The hand allows this if think about it closing as if you were grasping an object or pulling something torward you.

Imagine a dribbling a basketball.  Most people are only producing tone on the down stroke.  (down-down-down). However the reaction to dribble, up strokes are able to produce tone as well, and it's the alternation between the two that allows ease of play.

Most tension caused by arm weight technique is caused by only producing tone in one direction (down), and not learning how to do it in a rhythmic fashion, cyclic fashion. 

[faulty_damper]

The raised wrist is especially important to play tremolos. It provides mechanical leverage and is the easiest of all available movements.

[8_octaves]

[...] produce tone. The hand allows this if think about it closing as if you were grasping an object or pulling something torward you.

Imagine a dribbling a basketball.  Most people are only producing tone on the down stroke.  (down-down-down). However the reaction to dribble, up strokes are able to produce tone as well, and it's the alternation between the two that allows ease of play.

[...]

Hi anamnesis,

I think "grasping an object" is a very very good idea. When grasping, we won't - and won't want to - lose contact to the desired object, in this case: keys, and secondly, we can do this with a very high amount of control, since we have "taken", "grasped" or even "grabbed" things millons of times since our birth. Grasping is a very natural way of moving.-

In addition, the "dribbling a basketball" - imagination can be of much help here, I think. Because, we can make the dribbling much faster, if we "catch" (that means: to start the next downward move) the basketball HALFWAYS on its way upwards. That's what we can do with piano keys, too, it it should be easy, and makes VERY high speed tremolos possible, if we won't let come the keys the whole way upwards each time, but "catch them" (while always staying in contact to them) BEFORE they went the whole way upwards. When we have just "caught" them, we can lead them downwards, again. And then, again, "not let them come fully upwards, again".

Cordially, 8_octaves.

[anamnesis]

The raised wrist is especially important to play tremolos. It provides mechanical leverage and is the easiest of all available movements.

I think it's more in flux and responds to what you do at the forearm and hand.  In order to take advantage of its leverage, it's going to be raised up and down via action you do elsewhere.  

The production of a high wrist, or at least the appearance of a high wrist when the movements are exaggerated will correspond to the up actions I was talking about earlier that involve the raising of the forearm via flexion at the elbow and the closing of the hand toward the  keys.

               ^
(/Hand)--Wrist--(Forearm\)

However you need to alternate between this state, and the other state of dropping the forearm (while opening up the hand), which would give the appearance of a lower wrist or at least a neutral one.  

At high tempos and when you optimize the coordination, it should seem seamless and it should seem hard to pick out when one action begins and the other starts. You might not even be able to see a high or low wrist, and it should all look neutral.  

Hi anamnesis,

I think "grasping an object" is a very very good idea. When grasping, we won't - and won't want to - lose contact to the desired object, in this case: keys, and secondly, we can do this with a very high amount of control, since we have "taken", "grasped" or even "grabbed" things millons of times since our birth. Grasping is a very natural way of moving.-

In addition, the "dribbling a basketball" - imagination can be of much help here, I think. Because, we can make the dribbling much faster, if we "catch" (that means: to start the next downward move) the basketball HALFWAYS on its way upwards. That's what we can do with piano keys, too, it it should be easy, and makes VERY high speed tremolos possible, if we won't let come the keys the whole way upwards each time, but "catch them" (while always staying in contact to them) BEFORE they went the whole way upwards. When we have just "caught" them, we can lead them downwards, again. And then, again, "not let them come fully upwards, again".

Cordially, 8_octaves.

Good point.  I also like to imagine throwing.  Sometimes it's better to imagine other actions that lead to a more natural coordination, the produce the result we want at the piano.  The resistive/barrier element of the piano and the fact that we are sitting can some prevent us from instinctively using or at least framing things into more natural coordinations.  It makes us forget we should be constantly in flux, forward in motion, with coordinations that flow into each other. 

Balancing on the escapement, that you are talking about, is one of the few things we have to account for that make motion at the piano different from other movement arts.  For tremolos and trills, in particular it is vital.   

[pianoplayer002]

Well it depends on what you mean by use your arm.  The mistake with arm use is to constantly be bearing down, when actually you have to learn how to play "up" with the arm.

[...]

Most tension caused by arm weight technique is caused by only producing tone in one direction (down), and not learning how to do it in a rhythmic fashion, cyclic fashion.  

Obviously it is an improper understanding on my part that caused me trouble, and I found that a more finger oriented train of thought suited me much better (obviosuly there is nothing wrong with the old finger oriented schools as long as it is done properly, with supple arms; thousands of virtuosos have after all been raised this way.. It is doing it wrong, just like doing armweight wrong, that causes trouble). I think the most common mistake is in connection with the word arm WEIGHT. Weight implies something heavy, and to feel that the arm is heavy you put weight on the fingers by bearing down with the arm. I think neither down nor up, but simply let my arm be passive. The only part I think of weight with is my fingertips, everything else is just passive and following them.

[gustaaavo]

I recently studied this (currently working on the Rondo) so I'll write my personal experience (YMMV):
1. Fingering: I started playing this passage with Schenker's fingering (that's the edition you linked) and felt it was good. My teacher then suggested to use 31313131.....2 (31 on EC and even on F#D and 2 on G) and it did work better for me. (BTW, in the opening passage I found Schenker's fingering to work best with one slight change: using 2 on the G, as on the passage in question; this makes the right phrasing effortless, with 432 for BAG while raising the wrist).
2. This has been mentioned before in the thread, but really keep contact with the keys at all times. Ultimately, one will find a balance between just fingers and just forearm rotation (the 31 fingering allows for easier rotation). The way to find that balance is, as mjames wrote, patience. Practice it slow, hands separted and together. If you know what sound you're looking for, eventually your body will find how to get it (of course, avoid tension).
PS: Just in case, this passage has just a short (1/8th time value) pedal to extend the LH octaves and perhaps (I don't) on the long melody notes. Long pedals makes it easier but don't work well in my opinion.
On the other hand, I'm not sure if you really want to make the two lower notes softer. Really think on how you want the passage to sound, I think it's not that simple. Of course the E-F#-G melody is most important, but it does not need added emphasis.
I currently think 24/7 on this sonata, so I'd be glad to answer any more questions.

[faulty_damper]

I think it's more in flux and responds to what you do at the forearm and hand.  In order to take advantage of its leverage, it's going to be raised up and down via action you do elsewhere.  
...

The very simple act of trying what I suggest will show that your assertion is incorrect.  It's a very simple thing to do.