Chopin second ballade legato octaves

[oullman7130]

does anybody have advice on practicing the legato octaves in the main theme of the fast section of the second ballade? Cortot has one excercise, but their just nasty, (I'm talking about the ones you could find in the first two measures)

[perfect_playing]

There are lots of ways to practise a passage like this. You can try doing it in different rhythms, practising each intervals multiple times, just playing the thumbs, just playing the fifth fingers etc. Make sure you have a very clear musical image in mind for how you want to shape those octaves, and incorporate that into your technical practice. Playing with slightly higher wrists helps when I play those octaves. You can even practise with your eyes closed to train yourself to know the intervals and ensure accuracy and security when performing this piece!

[j_menz]

If I could play an octave with just my thumb, I'd retire happy.

[roberth]

does anybody have advice on practicing the legato octaves in the main theme of the fast section of the second ballade? Cortot has one excercise, but their just nasty, (I'm talking about the ones you could find in the first two measures)

I assume you mean the ones in the left hand where the tempo changes from Andantino to Presto con fuoco (and the tonality changes to A minor)?

First of all, you should decide what fingering you want to use, one that will work for your hands. If you can stretch an octave with 3-1 on the black keys, things get a lot easier here. Otherwise, try to use the 4th finger on any black keys preceded or followed by a white key. Two or three black keys in sequence will also need the 5th finger on at least one of them. Two white keys in succession, if they are only a second (whole or half step) apart, can also be fingered 4-5 or 5-4 depending on the direction.

It is a good idea to choose a fingering which allows legato when the intervals allow it: for example, for the octaves B to C in the first measure, you could finger them 5-4. In the 5th and 6th bars of the Presto, I would try this fingering on the bottom notes of the octaves: 5-5-3-4-5-4-4-5-3-4-5. The legato is only attempted over two or three octaves (at most) where it fits the fingering. If this doesn't work, you could try this: 5-5-4-4-5-4-4-5-4-4-5. In the 7th bar, 5-5-4-3, etc.

Of course, any time the intervals between octaves are larger than a third, it becomes pretty much impossible to play them with a real fingered legato. Besides, only the bottom notes can be done with fingered legato in the left hand. Also, taking the dynamics into consideration, you would probably need to use  a good deal of arm weight which would preclude doing a strict legato. This is typical for much romantic piano writing: the passage should SOUND legato, but not necessarily by playing a fingered legato.

So in order to get a feel for the right weight distribution over the whole phrase, I would try to play them together with the pedal as soon as I was sure enough of the notes to do them at a moderate tempo -- which you can build up to Presto once you have the coordination under control. I would use the pedalling as marked -- one change per bar for the first four bars, then once every dotted quarter (i.e., on the beat) for bars 5 and 6.

In addition, user perfect_playing has given you some very helpful advice. Wrist position is a very individual matter, though. A higher wrist might work for you, or it might work better with a "normal" wrist position. You have to experiment a bit.

In any case, as with almost all octave passages, it is of utmost importance to stay as relaxed as possible. Do not stiffen the wrist, but let the fingers carry the weight of your arm. It becomes a kind of bouncing motion from one octave to the next if the finger tips support the fall of the arm on the key by curving the finger slightly, or grabbing the keys with the fingertips (especially the 5th finger, which is where all of us have the most problems). If your wrist is relaxed, your hand will bounce right back up off the key ready to take the next octave. The wrist acts as a passive conduit and its position will vary depending on which phase of the combined fall/rebound motion is active.

Learning not to stiffen the wrist is usually the most difficult thing to learn when playing octaves. We do this as a reflex when the fingers are not yet strong enough to really carry the weight of the arm, so adequate finger strength is an important prerequisite to achieving a good octave technique. Otherwise, we start banging and lose control of the exact positioning of the fingers, and the sound becomes ugly, too.

[8_octaves]

If I could play an octave with just my thumb, I'd retire happy.

Perhaps this

[...] "A MANUAL MORE" [...]

would be helpful, then!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Em%C3%A1nuel_Mo%C3%B3r

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[maxy]

My advice would be : think crescendo. It's your best bet to get some "legato" effect with that left hand. You want a fingering that will allow you to get that big solid crescendo, even if it's 5-5-5-5.

If you still want to go down the "finger legato" path, I challenge you to figure out how to play the successive chords legato just before the 2nd "presto con fuoco" section. 

Gotta love that coda! 

[michael_sayers]

Perhaps this
 would be helpful, then!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Em%C3%A1nuel_Mo%C3%B3r

Cordially, 8_octaves!

Emanuel Moor was a fine composer.


Mvh,
Michael