My story of unlearning and relearning, a journey of self-discovery

[cinnamon21]

Hi everyone.
I am a music major who just completed her Bachelor degree in Music a few months ago in Australia.

My time during the degree is excruciating due to bad technique and having a teacher who didn't know how to solve my problems - tension, back pain...I was so frustrated all the time because I couldn't produce the sound that I wanted, and my tiny hands made it worse. In the end, all my performances were mediocre, Liszt La Leggierezza, Chopin Ballade 2, Chopin etudes, etc. I played like an amateur even though I practised so hard all these years. I know something was wrong but I couldn't pinpoint what it is.

After graduating, I decided to practise and observe myself intensely for a month for more than 8 hours a day. After all these years, I just realized I had flying fingers, that I wasn't playing with my fingers, I was just merely brushing the keys. I also have collapsed knuckles everywhere. I have lazy fingers. After practising Ravel Jeux d'eau, I finally 'get' what it means to press a key without pressure or pushing into it. I also take off the pedal completely and force myself to play legato and cleanly, which cause me to listen more to the sound I'm producing and the sensation I feel in my body. Since then, I paid a lot of attention to my posture, hand positions and finger placement that my technique improved so much in a few months, more finger independence and strength, and now I could play more comfortably and produce the sound that I have been seeking for all along.

Basically I'm ranting and applauding myself, yes. Sorry guys. But I regret not knowing this earlier, and it angers me how all my teachers didn't point out the root of the problem. They focused so much on interpretation from the very beginning and completely neglect the very thing that produce the sound, the fingers.

Has any of you had this kind of experience before?

[faulty_damper]

I had similar experiences.  However, I was very aware of my technical problems and had asked my teachers about it.  It was clear that they knew nothing and just told me to practice more as if that would solve it.  They were concert pianists who toured the world but they didn't know anything about technique except to do exercises (e.g. Czerny, Chopin, etc.)  So I decided to stop taking lessons and figure it out on my own.

Over the summer, I decided to dabble in a piece that I seemed difficult just to see if I could.  A couple of months later, it became apparent to me that I had actually achieved far more than I ever thought I could.  It was unimaginable and I was scared to demonstrate these new abilities.  I was playing effortlessly where I had anxiously struggled for endless hours.  This was just the beginning of the things to come.  When I finally demonstrated to the professors, they were somewhat shocked.  When you play easy pieces poorly, but a difficult piece easily, it's obvious that your performance is not for lack of skill but simply for a lack of trying.

My entire philosophy to piano started to change, entirely different from my teachers and other students.  They wanted to be great pianists.  I just wanted to be a decent musician.  And what was holding me back was the inadequate technical skills.  You can't achieve more than you are able.  And in my mind, I had ideas that simply couldn't be expressed because I simply couldn't play.  Once I freed my mind from my body, I could finally focus on the music.  That's really the purpose of playing the piano, to make music.

[toughbo]

That was an interesting reply, faulty. Can you elaborate more on your discoveries?

[dcstudio]

not for lack of skill but simply for a lack of trying.

so true...  Music school -- it's a wonder any of us still play after that experience...lol    I figured out very quickly that my teachers didn't have the answers.   I was afraid to try the tough stuff, too--I sat down long after college and did the 8-12 hour a day super intense reevaluation of my skills.  I had a very similar experience of..."wow, how is this so easy now?"  


I think we have to figure most of this out on our own--it's just the way it is.   I received a very solid foundation from all my years of training--but it was years before I had it figured out.  Now I play better than I ever have...and I am still improving.   Looking back it seems I could have taken a much shorter route to get here, though.  

[cinnamon21]

Thanks for the reply everyone. It's good to know that I'm not the only one. I regret the times I have spent looking for a solution without observing what I was doing. Yea, not many teachers know about piano technique...mine told me stories, characters, and fairy tales all the time. It's good to be inspired but not when you're technically struggling.

This is actually a Russian piano professor who had her Masters from the Moscow Conservatory.

"Imagine this part soft like clouds..."
"This is like jumping frogs"

Yeah like that's gonna help me play jumps accurately...

Her: Relax you're too tense
Me: How do I solve it? My forearms hurt.
Her: Yea it's hard for all us. Just drill it over and over.
Me:.......

One day she told me I have weak fingers. Good observations. Told me to practice Hanon and demonstrated some exercises to have 'active fingers'. Her demonstrations were with extremely curved fingers and her fingers all over the place....sometimes hyperextended...hitting the keys really hard...

I guess that type of movement works for her since she is a concert pianist.

It certainly didn't for me. I ended up pushing into the keys too hard, which stiffened my fingers and my entire arms, moving my wrist up and down like crazy in order to produce Forte with my fingers.

Her response?

"Yep that's how you do it."

I had no time to explore like how I do now due to assignments, essays, life problems, plus recitals...
She suggested me hard pieces and by the time I realized I wouldn't be able to play it well, it's too late.

Lesson learned. Don't always listen to your teacher. Know your limits. Know yourself.

Plus my time in music school sucked - comparisons, competitions, pianists talking behind each others' backs, your own piano friends tried to talk you out of doing something. I completely lost myself there. Got brainwashed by so many people telling me this and that. I just turned 20 so I had this 'insecure, people pleaser' thing going on last time. Never again.

I'm glad I have this gap year to sort things out, find myself, mature, and hopefully audition for Masters next year or in 2 years' time and get a better teacher. Anyone knows good university or conservatory program?

[8_octaves]

[...]
This is actually a Russian piano professor who had her Masters from the Moscow Conservatory.

"Imagine this part soft like clouds..."
"This is like jumping frogs"

Yeah like that's gonna help me play jumps accurately...

Hi cinnamon!

You are right, I think. Images and pictures might be very useful, to make up concepts of the works we want to play. But there are problems: To make up these concepts, one should be musically (and directly connected to it: technically) able to play the piece in this, our, imagination, first, with all necessary moves to accomplish a most exact realization of our ideas. So that's what one should consider to practice at first. And the second problem directly refers to images and pictures stemming from other people, in this case: from your piano teacher.

What, if HER concepts ( which base on experiences in life, on things we have seen, on feelings we have felt ) are only HER taste / HER individual preferences, whereas YOU associate completely different, perhaps unpleasant images to, for example "clouds" ? Or: "frogs" ?

A teacher may give motivating IDEAS, which are to be discussed, and not firmly defined stencils / patterns which he / she estimates as universally valid ones.

We ourselves should make up our concepts.

Her: Relax you're too tense
Me: How do I solve it? My forearms hurt.
Her: Yea it's hard for all us. Just drill it over and over.
Me:.......

One day she told me I have weak fingers. Good observations. Told me to practice Hanon and demonstrated some exercises to have 'active fingers'. Her demonstrations were with extremely curved fingers and her fingers all over the place....sometimes hyperextended...hitting the keys really hard...

I guess that type of movement works for her since she is a concert pianist.

Unbelievable.

Hitting keys is no good at all. I'm only an amateur, but I could ( see later text in this posting ) prove that I'm not alone with this opinion. However: Imagine a jelly block. In 1 kilometer distance there's a sniper, who shoots at the jelly block using a sniper rifle. After the bullett has left the gun, it flies its way to the block, - PLAFF! - and goes through it. But the sniper himself cannot control its way through the block anymore. It, boringly, goes through.

Now imagine the sniper could lead the projctile with his fingers and hands its whole way. He will... ... enter the block with his hands, always in touch with the bullett, leading and directing it - being in the block - wherever he wants it to go... .

Additionally, @ "hitting" the keys: The more one strikes / hits something, the more it recoils.-

And perhaps it "worked" for her, but it's very ineffective, and uncontrolled, and could evoke additional noise from the finger-key-impact.

If you HIT a glass of beer on a table, you won't know where it moves and what exactly happens. But if you carefully LEAD the glass, you very exactly can define its way.

It certainly didn't for me. I ended up pushing into the keys too hard, which stiffened my fingers and my entire arms, moving my wrist up and down like crazy in order to produce Forte with my fingers.

[...]

Lesson learned. Don't always listen to your teacher. Know your limits. Know yourself.

That's a very good step!!  

Plus my time in music school sucked - comparisons, competitions, pianists talking behind each others' backs, your own piano friends tried to talk you out of doing something. I completely lost myself there. Got brainwashed by so many people telling me this and that. I just turned 20 so I had this 'insecure, people pleaser' thing going on last time. Never again.

I'm glad I have this gap year to sort things out, find myself, mature, and hopefully audition for Masters next year or in 2 years' time and get a better teacher. Anyone knows good university or conservatory program?

Cinnamon, what you wrote, really is a very negative experience. And the first and most important step you already took: Have a pause / gap. Find yourself, mature, sort things out!

And then grab the Masters! Though, I cannot help with the last question directly, but I would recommend, perhaps, a method. A reasonable method, which is exactly the contrary of that what you have been taught up to now.

From Heinrich Neuhaus, and perhaps earlier, to other teachers, there was sometimes this unreasonable "hitting" proclaimed. Others even proclaimed the "appleholder", or even "cla"-fingers while playing. Or, even worse, to use the fingers only as "dead appendices", and only use arm: They did not realize that finally the FINGERS t o u c h the keys, but in co-working including the whole apparatus, not the fingers ALONE!

But one man, who was friend to Neuhaus, and master-student of Petri, has tried to stop this nonsense by creating a method founded on 1 or 2 other ideas and the grasping instinct-move ( please note: if we want to grasp something, "rolled up" fingers are useless. Try to grasp an orange with rolled up- or: clawed fingers. You won't succeed. But when we OPEN our hand, as if to TAKE something, which means, that the fingers become more relaxed and flat, THEN we can grasp everything we want. ).

But about the man and the content of his method, which I possess in written form, as original, (it was recorded on tape while he taught, and then typewritten by a student of his ) , I will tell MUCH later!! And it's like this: I opened this document (which is, in the edition I possess ( typewritten, 1974 ), very rare, since some of them who possess it, won't like too much to propagandize it ) for people on another place, and I gave - for a short time - 9 of them access to the complete document, with the wish, to use it in a reasonable way. Exactly as I was told myself, because I got that document from my friend from the US, who did extensive studies with his teacher: the above mentioned man. But I earned only hatred by some of them, to whom I told about or opened the document, and from other people, who were taught their lives long in the ways you, @cinnamon, mentioned. Other recipients, on the other hand, were friendly, and neutral, they said, that they wanted to talk about it with other fellow pianists, which is a good way , I think, in such cases! And some of them liked it.

But most of them hated the ideas in the method, they, if they could, would wish the worst to them, because, as I said, ( and inbetween the lines I have sometimes here given one or two hints of it ), they ( the ideas ) are 180 degrees contrary to that what teachers like the one you mentioned, may be able to teach.

But let's never forget: A method is useful, and necessary ( teaching or learning without a method could easily lead to nothing ). But :

Whether a specific method WORKS for a specific individual, or not, can only be proven by the future. Don't give in, cinnamon!  

Best wishes, from: 8_octaves!!

    

[diomedes]

As with everything, you need to be your own doctor. Being a successful doctor can probably very difficult, you have to solve so many problems and as with a teacher for such a technical area you have to somehow help and put yourself into someones cognitive process. That's nearly impossible. I think a good teacher can compliment the musical aspects, but in my experience technical elements must be solved by your self.

I remember just being mentally incapable of managing the big page of dotted chords in the Tchaik concerto years ago. They're not difficult mostly, but at the time they gave me tension and my understanding of many elements was weak. Nobody had a solution for me. I mean i played it and stuff and it mostly went ok, but that was a big example of just not getting it and being able to get help.

I had to teach myself absolutely everything in terms of execution with the piano, and it was extremely challenging. And usually new pieces give new challenges. How do you get the descending arpeggios in Chopin's 3rd scherzo perfectly even between both hands is sort of my current issue, i'm mostly getting it and know ill solve it, wish i had more energy to give to it given that i balance other stuff, but it's problem solving like that that you need to do yourself. Sadly, most teachers will tell you think of a waterfall. That's when you throw a metronome at their head and not feel any guilt. Eventually i'll turn my attention to op.25 nr.6, that should be the final pianistic showdown.

For me, personally, it's all mind over matter. You either know how or don't or have the mental resources gain control over the task. Often it takes time too, but that's me.

[dcstudio]

This is actually a Russian piano professor who had her Masters from the Moscow Conservatory.

"Imagine this part soft like clouds..."
"This is like jumping frogs"

LOL---my Russian professor said--in a very thick Russian accent

"all my students are bad this year, but you--You are the WORST."

she was having a tiff with the head of the piano department when I took my juries that year...all her students got kinda screwed because of it, too. 

During my performance the chair of the department got up from his seat and started watering the plants as I played the Pathetique sonata...it was  a very strange sound to hear -- very distracting...not to mention just plain mean.  lol. I still passed my juries...but damn.

funny thing is--so many of the really great players I went to school with don't even play anymore--they have completely left the business...   and I play every weekend. 

[cinnamon21]

Thanks diomedes,

I agree with you. It's all in the mind. I think I relied too much on my teacher and maybe had a lack of willpower at that time. But trust me, I've been trying to be my own doctor for a few years but had never experienced the "Aha!" moment...until today. Maybe my frustration and anger after graduation caused me to look deeper, be honest with myself (that my technique suck and it's holding me back from expressing my musical intent), became a mad person (I actually observed myself, practising till 4 am for a few weeks until I finally got it!). I guess there are no shortcuts. But my problem was really, the collapsed knuckles, causing weak fingers and lack of independence, which caused me to play from the wrist. Now that I'm working on those like crazy and become a control freak and tension detector, I think my playing has started to feel 'right'.

[faulty_damper]

That was an interesting reply, faulty. Can you elaborate more on your discoveries?

"Technique" is nearly always misunderstood.
Technique is not a "school"; it is simply movement.  Technique=movement.
If you can't play something, you aren't using the right movements.
If you can play, and it feels difficult, you are not using the right movements.
If you are constantly practicing the same things, you aren't using the right movements.
Once you've mastered the movements, you can master any instrument because the principles are identical.
Once you've mastered the movements, you can easily evaluate other pianists' technique  by sight.
You can never play better than your movements allow.

[toughbo]

I very much agree with you faulty, having arrived at the same conclusions after pondering a couple of years. Do you feel that any of the current big names has really mastered the art of moving about a piano?

[louispodesta]

I very much agree with you faulty, having arrived at the same conclusions after pondering a couple of years. Do you feel that any of the current big names has really mastered the art of moving about a piano?

The answer, in my opinion, is unfortunately no!  However, there is a bright spot.

Several years ago, my coach unceremoniously "dumped me."  It was a shock, but at the same time, it was a true blessing.  Because, he had always stressed that I buy and study the book, "What Every Pianist Needs To Know About the Body," by Dr. Thomas Mark.

So, afterward I just contacted Dr. Mark.  Then, I spent five hours on a plane (each way) to have an additional five hour coaching session with him.  And since then, my piano life has since been permanently altered for the better.

Dr. Mark, whose two books address practically every aspect of piano technique (both from the Taubman, Alexander schools), and also a true philosophical perspective, can be accessed at his website www.pianomap.com.  Accordingly, my advice to you, and all others, is to read it through in its entirety.

For the record, it is no accident that most of the university piano faculty chairs in the U.S. privately recommend his books to their students.

And as an aside, regarding any and all instances, Dr. Mark has never had any advanced knowledge of my responding to any post using his name.

[faulty_damper]

Do you feel that any of the current big names has really mastered the art of moving about a piano?

No. Some come close, sort of, like Marc-Andre Hamelin (he articulates his fingers too much by keeping his hand immobile - one of the reasons why his playing lacks expression) but most of them over-rely on limited movements, which is obvious just by watching.  If you ever see someone maximizing the use of these movements, it will look very fluid, almost like water dancing on the keys, because the movements are all interconnected and intertwined, very much like finger ballet with the fluidity of a ballet dancer.  Also, if someone maximizes use, his/her face will be relaxed because there is no excess tension, which is another way to know if ones movements are poor. The face will not be disfigured in grunting or anguish as if trying to express with the face what the music should be expressing alone.

[outin]

  If you ever see someone maximizing the use of these movements, it will look very fluid, almost like water dancing on the keys, because the movements are all interconnected and intertwined, very much like finger ballet with the fluidity of a ballet dancer.  Also, if someone maximizes use, his/her face will be relaxed because there is no excess tension, which is another way to know if ones movements are poor. The face will not be disfigured in grunting or anguish as if trying to express with the face what the music should be expressing alone.

If I ignore your (IMO) somewhat ridiculous claims about pianists in general, I agree with this part. My teacher is a good example, when she plays there's absolutely nothing except what is needed in her movements and she looks completely calm and relaxed even when playing extremely fast. Fingers dancing ballet is a quite good description.

But how to teach that? First she obviously has no physical shortcomings that she would need to compensate for in her movements. Many of us do have restrictions of body movements or mobility, especially when aging. So while we might be able to play some things in this way, in others a compromise is necessary.

Second it's feasible to think some people naturally have better inner sense of their movements and ability to control their muscle activity. There's indeed a study where they found two genes common with professional dancers (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.0010042). Of course that's only one study, but there's a lot we don't know about genes and their effect on our abilities. So it's impossible to know that everyone could achieve such fluidity of movement by simply practicing.

I assume the best way to come close to this is to study and analyze one's own movements privately and increase body awareness until conscious thought is no longer needed. The teacher is good for evaluation of the final results and helpful suggestions, but I don't see how everything could be "taught". While there may sometimes be a sudden moment of "finding the light" (as in your case?), the process may also take very long. When everything else involved in piano study is added few may be able to invest all that time and prefer to concentrate on other things. After all success is not necessarily due to such technical excellence...

[toughbo]

If you ever see someone maximizing the use of these movements, it will look very fluid, almost like water dancing on the keys, because the movements are all interconnected and intertwined, very much like finger ballet with the fluidity of a ballet dancer.

My thoughts exactly!
I tried to explain these thoughts to my teacher at my last lesson, hoping that he could provide some insight, but he's a natural kind of type so he hasn't analysed how he is producing sound. It didn't seem like he understood what I was trying to say, so I'll have to come up with a better way of conveying it to him.

The previous teacher I had was pretty much the same. Maybe I'll have to figure out these things on my own...

[cinnamon21]

"Technique" is nearly always misunderstood.
Technique is not a "school"; it is simply movement.  Technique=movement.
If you can't play something, you aren't using the right movements.
If you can play, and it feels difficult, you are not using the right movements.
If you are constantly practicing the same things, you aren't using the right movements.
Once you've mastered the movements, you can master any instrument because the principles are identical.
Once you've mastered the movements, you can easily evaluate other pianists' technique  by sight.
You can never play better than your movements allow.

So true...
In my case, I didn't press into the key bed 'fully' because my teacher told me to 'relax' and get the 'light touch'. This caused me to somewhat play 'lightly' on the surface, causing poor contact with the key bed. It felt unnatural but I got the notes down and the sound that I wanted. It seemed okay during practice but this faulty technique definitely haunted me before and during performance as I get nervous and shaky, my hands couldn't even support my fingers and sometimes, they couldn't move...I couldn't 'feel' what I was playing, it was so bad... I curl up my fingers to get the 'articulated' touch in Mozart and Bach...and tense up when trying to play pp or ppp chords in Debussy...to get the effect I wanted...resulting in neck, back, wrist, forearm pain, headache (because I knew something was wrong but I didn't know which part), and stress (which made my playing even worse). Now I finally realized that the patience and discipline needed to practice the correct movements is worthwhile.

[cinnamon21]

The answer, in my opinion, is unfortunately no!  However, there is a bright spot.

Several years ago, my coach unceremoniously "dumped me."  It was a shock, but at the same time, it was a true blessing.  Because, he had always stressed that I buy and study the book, "What Every Pianist Needs To Know About the Body," by Dr. Thomas Mark.

So, afterward I just contacted Dr. Mark.  Then, I spent five hours on a plane (each way) to have an additional five hour coaching session with him.  And since then, my piano life has since been permanently altered for the better.

Dr. Mark, whose two books address practically every aspect of piano technique (both from the Taubman, Alexander schools), and also a true philosophical perspective, can be accessed at his website www.pianomap.com.  Accordingly, my advice to you, and all others, is to read it through in its entirety.

For the record, it is no accident that most of the university piano faculty chairs in the U.S. privately recommend his books to their students.

And as an aside, regarding any and all instances, Dr. Mark has never had any advanced knowledge of my responding to any post using his name.

Wow thanks for the info. Will definitely look into this book. I just purchased Seymour Fink's technique book a few months ago but still haven't really tried the movements. Any experience with his book?