Liszt > Chopin ??

[cuberdrift]

Okay...let me first start by saying that I do not REALLY prefer Liszt over Chopin. I just made the title that way to catch your attention.

However, I will have to say that I prefer his etudes over Chopin's any day. And I must put to discussion how Liszt's music seemingly has that "mystical, ethereal" effect Chopin wasn't actually master of...I mean sure, Chopin was a masterful poet who could bring one's heart to tears in seconds...but Liszt had the power to evoke such powerful, particularly "nostalgic" emotions.

Take for example his Ricordanza etude. Or his Liebestraume number ONE (not the third!). Two really underrated pieces! They stand as one of my favourites, and few Chopin pieces in my opinion speak to me as closely as those two.

Or even Un Sospiro. Beautiful melodies, all of them - they don't possess the glittery, dramatic flourishes present in Chopin's "improvisatory"-sounding melodies, but they nevertheless captivate your soul. That's, in my opinion, the thing about Liszt. Just a few notes, but BOOM - straight to the soul. Speaks to you VERY FRANKLY.

I must admit though that Chopin of course also has advantages over Liszt. His ability to evoke melancholy is unmatched. I might say that Chopin's music has more of a "narrative" quality to it than Liszt's - I think that while Chopin's music can play a powerful, dramatic "scene" in your head, Liszt's music makes you remember the memory of someone really dear...just the memory, a picture, of him/her, period, and the whirl of emotions you feel for that person in that instant. That sad, rather lonely, but also reassuring, thought of remembering someone and what you did with them together, and how you loved each other so dearly.  

So, what do you think? Do your thoughts coincide with mine, or do you have something else to say or challenge?

[mjames]

Why is that every one of your threads are so freaking stupid?

[chopinlover01]

Why is that every one of your threads are so freaking stupid?

The same reason that so many of your responses are just as annoying and agitating?
A decent discussion question that, while many of the older pianists here have worn out their opinion out on, the newer generation feels like it's a good discussion topic.
Personally, I love Liszt, but Chopin still captivates me whenever I listen to something of his.
I agree, though, the first Liebestraum is a great piece.

[mjames]

The same reason that so many of your responses are just as annoying and agitating?
A decent discussion question that, while many of the older pianists here have worn out their opinion out on, the newer generation feels like it's a good discussion topic.
Personally, I love Liszt, but Chopin still captivates me whenever I listen to something of his.
I agree, though, the first Liebestraum is a great piece.

oops sorry if i got your panties all hot and bothered

[cuberdrift]

Why is that every one of your threads are so freaking stupid?

It is indeed fun to poke at people like you and play the game of the new 'young, childish' school of piano enthusiasts. 

Since you seem to be enjoying bashing all of this, now I ask; who do you think is better, you or Lang Lang?

However, I must admit that this thread was not intended to fit that role...just because it says "Liszt > Chopin" does NOT mean that. I said that I did not MEAN that Liszt was better, but that there's an aspect to his music which I prefer to Chopin's. Most people love Chopin, and I am one of them. However let's not forget that Liszt somehow had something that Chopin did not, or at least did not have as expertly as Liszt did.

[visitor]

... let's not forget that Liszt somehow had something that Chopin did not, ...

a role in Harry Potter?

[mjames]

It is indeed fun to poke at people like you and play the game of the new 'young, childish' school of piano enthusiasts. 

Since you seem to be enjoying bashing all of this, now I ask; who do you think is better, you or Lang Lang?

However, I must admit that this thread was not intended to fit that role...just because it says "Liszt > Chopin" does NOT mean that. I said that I did not MEAN that Liszt was better, but that there's an aspect to his music which I prefer to Chopin's. Most people love Chopin, and I am one of them. However let's not forget that Liszt somehow had something that Chopin did not, or at least did not have as expertly as Liszt did.

Obviously Lang Lang

[8_octaves]

a role in Harry Potter?

  Hi Visitor, they are similar, aren't they?

___

Hmm. To the thread question: I like Chopin better, since he's my nr. 2 of favourites, but I like some works of Liszt very much, too. But his oeuvre is so voluminous and extensive, that I think I will never ever will manage to hear or even have a look at all of his works / scores.

Chopin seems to me more "introverted" than Liszt. Chopin, as already said before, shows the special elements of melancholy and the very special "Zal". Liszt, of whom I like some rhapsodies, too, is melancholic sometimes, too, but not always / mainly.

All in all, I prefer Chopin.

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[michael_c]

a role in Harry Potter?

Apparently Liszt and Chopin looked similar when they were young, so much so that Chopin was able to impersonate Liszt. Amy Fay, in her book Music Study in Germany, recounts how Liszt told the story:

'He said that when he and Chopin were young together, somebody told him that Chopin had a remarkable talent for mimicry, and so he said to Chopin, "Come round to my rooms this evening and show off this talent of yours." So Chopin came. He had purchased a blonde wig ("I was very blonde at that time," said Liszt), which he put on, and got himself up in one of Liszt's suits. Presently an acquaintance of Liszt's came in, Chopin went to meet him instead of Liszt, and took off his voice and manner so perfectly, that the man actually mistook him for Liszt, and made an appointment with him for the next day—"and there I was in the room," said Liszt.'

[pencilart3]

Here are my favorite composers and their scores out of ten:

Mendelssohn - 4/10

Liszt - 5/10

Mozart - 6/10

Beethoven - 7/10

Debussy - 8/10

Bach - 9/10

Chopin - 11/10

You just can't argue about Chopin.

[cuberdrift]

Obviously Lang Lang

A cunning fellow you are. You think these threads are stupid, yet answer them with reason.  

Nice reference to Mr. Rickman there, however.

[chopinlover01]

oops sorry if i got your panties all hot and bothered

Not at all

[visitor]

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Why is that every one of your threads are so freaking stupid?

*** it's a normal ass question chill!

[michael_sayers]

Obviously, it is Liszt.

Consider:

all the piano works
  the hungarian rhapsodies
  the annees de pelerinage
  the etudes including the concert etudes
  the ballades
  the two legendes
  the sonata in b minor
  the numerous transcriptions of Beethoven, Schubert, Berlioz and the other 93 composers listed    
here including "anonymous":
https://imslp.org/wiki/Versions_of_Works_by_Others_%28Liszt,_Franz%29
  and many items not listed here (nuages gris, piano versions of Liszt's own music, et c.)

AND

the tone poems
the other orchestral works
the masses
the requiem
the legend of st. elizabeth oratorio
the christus oratorio
via crucis
the other choral works
the songs

et c.

And with the harmonic and other innovations.

[8_octaves]

  and many items not listed here (nuages gris, [...])

Hi Michael,

nuages gris is on IMSLP, too, but under the German title "Trübe Wolken" ( sometimes I've heard about the translation "Graue Wolken", too. )

https://imslp.org/wiki/Tr%C3%BCbe_Wolken,_S.199_%28Liszt,_Franz%29

I like this piece very very much, since, in school, many years ago, in musics, our class ( the pupils ) had to hold short referates about the most various topics, works, etc. in the music-field.

One group's topic ( we could hold these referates alone ( as did I. My topic was Anatevka, since I have a record of it (LP,33)  ) , or in groups of 2,  was Liszt, Nuages Gris. They had us listen to a recording of it, and I liked it very much, but over many years I had forgotten the title, and I only could remember that even our teacher may have mis-translated it, since he said "GrauTÖNE", perhaps confusing "Nuages" with "Nuances" ( "Nuances" meaning in German "Farbtöne / Farb-Abstufungen" ) !!!

So, I asked some guys on another place, and 2 people were able to "sniff" the correct work and name it to me! And then I - finally - found it on IMSLP!

Thank you for mentioning the nice work of Liszt!

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[michael_sayers]

Hi Michael,

nuages gris is on IMSLP, too, but under the German title "Trübe Wolken" ( sometimes I've heard about the translation "Graue Wolken", too. )

https://imslp.org/wiki/Tr%C3%BCbe_Wolken,_S.199_%28Liszt,_Franz%29

I like this piece very very much, since, in school, many years ago, in musics, our class ( the pupils ) had to hold short referates about the most various topics, works, etc. in the music-field.

One group's topic ( we could hold these referates alone ( as did I. My topic was Anatevka, since I have a record of it (LP,33)  ) , or in groups of 2,  was Liszt, Nuages Gris. They had us listen to a recording of it, and I liked it very much, but over many years I had forgotten the title, and I only could remember that even our teacher may have mis-translated it, since he said "GrauTÖNE", perhaps confusing "Nuages" with "Nuances" ( "Nuances" meaning in German "Farbtöne / Farb-Abstufungen" ) !!!

So, I asked some guys on another place, and 2 people were able to "sniff" the correct work and name it to me! And then I - finally - found it on IMSLP!

Thank you for mentioning the nice work of Liszt!

Cordially, 8_octaves!

Hi 8_octaves,

And thus we have from a true champion of Liszt's music this very nice recording of Nuages Gris by Ervin Nyiregyhazi - although he did say that he thought he could have played it better:

p.s. - I forget to mention, there is an opera in addition to all of the above which was composed by Liszt, and various works for voice and piano and including such things as recitativo passages.  Probably there is much I am not thinking to add to the list at the moment!


Mvh,
Michael

[8_octaves]

Hi 8_octaves,

And thus we have from a true champion of Liszt's music this very nice recording of Nuages Gris by Ervin Nyiregyhazi - although he did say that he thought he could have played it better:

[...]

Hi Michael! Thanks for the link very much!!

Cordially, 8_oct!!

[michael_sayers]

Hi Michael! Thanks for the link very much!!

Cordially, 8_oct!!

Hi 8_octaves,

It was my pleasure to share it!


Mvh,
Michael

[chopinlover01]

 the hungarian rhapsodies
  the annees de pelerinage
  the etudes including the concert etudes
  the ballades
  the two legendes
  the sonata in b minor
  the numerous transcriptions of Beethoven, Schubert, Berlioz and the other 93 composers listed    
here including "anonymous":
https://imslp.org/wiki/Versions_of_Works_by_Others_%28Liszt,_Franz%29
  and many items not listed here (nuages gris, piano versions of Liszt's own music, et c.)

AND

the tone poems
the other orchestral works
the masses
the requiem
the legend of st. elizabeth oratorio
the christus oratorio
via crucis
the other choral works
the songs

et c.

And with the harmonic and other innovations.

How does prolificity make one better?
And, for Chopin, consider...

2 Concerti
21 Nocturnes
14(+) waltzes
26 Preludes
3 Sonatas
27 Etudes
5 Rondos
4 Ballades
4 Scherzi

Misc.:
Fantasie op 49
Barcarolle
Fantasy on Polish Airs
Bercuese
Tarantelle
Polish songs

[j_menz]

And, for Chopin, consider...

Your omission of the Polonaises is noted. Have I convinced you? 

[chopinlover01]

Your omission of the Polonaises is noted. Have I convinced you? 

Hah, just about. I think you're right that many of them are horrid (though I'm still fond of the E flat minor and the Military!), and there are many pianists butchering them (as with all music).
My mistake though.
Add 13 polonaises or whatever it is (including the posthumous ones).

[michael_sayers]

How does prolificity make one better?

My Dearest Chopin Lover, and Most Exceptional Schumann Traumerei Interpreter,

It wasn't meant to be expressed that Liszt was the better composer, rather that - as with the poll question - he is my preferred composer.

And the quantity of music isn't what does it for me.  It is about the dreams of the heart . . . and the inner fires . . . and that with Liszt they burn, rage and smoulder with such intensity, whether the playing is fortissimo or pianissimo.  He really knew what it was to be alive, and in touch with the forces of life, and yet his music is about much more than this - it is only one facet, with Liszt.


Mvh,
Michael

[8_octaves]

26 Preludes

mhh..Hi chopinlover!

  don't you like the "Devil's Trill" any longer?  

hmm. I ask myself when Henle etc. will add it to new Editions. What do you think??

( I feel the faint whiff that, in the world of scientists, perhaps...the "Devil's Trill" isn't too welcome for some of the traditional Chopin-scholars. Hmm.. .But that's only a purely fictional thought which just came to my mind some time ago... )

Cordially, 8_octaves!

[chopinlover01]

I forgot! You're right! Sadly, I can't modify the post any longer due to PS' new legislation on that, but I shall amend these now!
13 Polonaises
27 preludes!

[mjames]

No allegro de concert, variations brillantes mazurkas, or the op. 2 variations? Wow, and the polonaises are horrid? I don't like you anymore.  

[chopinlover01]

No allegro de concert, variations brillantes mazurkas, or the op. 2 variations? Wow, and the polonaises are horrid? I don't like you anymore.  

I thought we were off to a bad start to begin with  With the Rach 3 discussion and all.
Yes, I definitely forgot many major works.
As for the polonaises, I did say that there are many of them that I do love. But you can only hear the Heroic polonaise so many times before you want to shoot yourself to each octave in the E major section.

[mjames]

But you can only hear the Heroic polonaise so many times before you want to shoot yourself to each octave in the E major section.

Certainly not Chopin's fault. Too much of anything is bad for you.

[chopinlover01]

Certainly not Chopin's fault. Too much of anything is bad for you.

No, I believe that my dislike for some of them is more due to the overexposure and them being butchered by pianists.

[mjames]

No, I believe that my dislike for some of them is more due to the overexposure and them being butchered by pianists.

"No?" That's basically what I just said. Too much of anything = overexposure lol. Anyways, i don't see overexposure as a problem. It's something that you can easily avoid.

[chopinlover01]

I agree, and my choice of language was unclear for that.