Fast practice speed

[nick]

I'm curious how others approach a piece they know the notes well and need to get the speed to performance level. For myself, I find practicing at about 12 to 18 bpm below my fastest perfect speed is the sweet spot. Staying at that speed for maybe a week, then moving up another 6 to 8 bpm for the sweet spot which allows a faster top speed. When I have tried playing repeats at my fastest, I get sore joints, imperfections etc. I've even tried every other day practice but still the same. Back to the sweet spot.  How about you?

Nick

[stevensk]

Practicing=andante
Concerting=vivace   

[j_menz]

Practicing=andante
Concerting=vivace   

Regardless?   

[chopinlover01]

Anyone and everyone correct me if I'm wrong, but...
Speed is made possible by a combination of efficient technique and muscle memory. IE, if some passage is very long but overall not too demanding, getting it up to speed is a matter of memory of the hands.
But, for instance, the cadenzas in the 3rd Liebestraum of Liszt's (which are not very long), where there are thirds going up and down the keyboard, it's more of a technique issue than muscle memory. It's D flat minor resolving by a half step to E flat 7, but the fast third skips can be tricky.

[nick]

Anyone and everyone correct me if I'm wrong, but...
Speed is made possible by a combination of efficient technique and muscle memory. IE, if some passage is very long but overall not too demanding, getting it up to speed is a matter of memory of the hands.
But, for instance, the cadenzas in the 3rd Liebestraum of Liszt's (which are not very long), where there are thirds going up and down the keyboard, it's more of a technique issue than muscle memory. It's D flat minor resolving by a half step to E flat 7, but the fast third skips can be tricky.

For me, efficient technique requires a gradual moving up in speed. I can have at a slow speed for example perfect technique, know the notes in my sleep, but to play the passage at 160? Not so much. Even a tremelo, as simple as 2 notes requires for me a moving up gradually. My starting speed on simple passages is higher, but the principle remains the same. Interesting how people differ. I wish I could do it like you do!! But I eventually get there.

Nick

[chopinlover01]

For me, efficient technique requires a gradual moving up in speed. I can have at a slow speed for example perfect technique, know the notes in my sleep, but to play the passage at 160? Not so much. Even a tremelo, as simple as 2 notes requires for me a moving up gradually. My starting speed on simple passages is higher, but the principle remains the same. Interesting how people differ. I wish I could do it like you do!! But I eventually get there.

Nick

I wish I could learn the most efficient techniques simply by gradually moving up in speed 

[nick]

I wish I could learn the most efficient techniques simply by gradually moving up in speed 

Why? Doesn't your method get you there? I was thinking muscle memory would be quicker.

What happens when you try and move up in speed on a difficult passage?

Nick

[j_menz]

If you have practiced slowly that which you need to do quickly, it will help. If, however, what you have practiced slowly is that which only works slowly, it will be more of a hindrance.

In other words, there are many ways of playing a passage slowly that simply will not just speed up. You need to figure out what the movements are that you will need to go fast and practice them slowly.

[nick]

If you have practiced slowly that which you need to do quickly, it will help. If, however, what you have practiced slowly is that which only works slowly, it will be more of a hindrance.

In other words, there are many ways of playing a passage slowly that simply will not just speed up. You need to figure out what the movements are that you will need to go fast and practice them slowly.

Interesting. I have heard of which you speak. Can you give an example of a passage practiced slowly but does not work fast? I can imagine if one does some strange motion slowly, not efficient, that fast would not work. My experience is the slow practice is just as it would be played fast, just slower.

Nick

[anamnesis]

Interesting. I have heard of which you speak. Can you give an example of a passage practiced slowly but does not work fast? I can imagine if one does some strange motion slowly, not efficient, that fast would not work. My experience is the slow practice is just as it would be played fast, just slower.

Nick

Most of the Chopin etudes. Slow practice without exploring what actually works at top speed first is the primary reason the more difficult ones such as  Op 10 1, 2, 7 and 25 no 6 can seem physically difficult. One you figure out the motions, you can go back and do slow practice.  If the slow practice you use on 10 no 2 can't be speeded up without making your fingers fall off, then you weren't using the proper motions to begin with.  

The other issue is that too much slow practice, at least when you play all the notes, causes you to "miss" the heart and essence of the music.

Not every note is important.  There's a hierarchy due to pitch hierarchies from tonal relationships as well as rhythmic/duration/metric weight.  Some notes are simply modifiers/embellishments of the more important structural notes, and should be treated as such.

Plodding along all the time tends to make you to play on a note-by-note basis, making every little detail important.  And you know what they say about making everything special or important:

[j_menz]

Not every note is important.  There's a hierarchy due to pitch hierarchies from tonal relationships as well as rhythmic/duration/metric weight.  Some notes are simply modifiers/embellishments of the more important structural notes, and should be treated as such.

There is much truth in this. The extent, however, varies from piece to piece.

There is also a certain degree of experience/expertise required to identify what is important and what is not. It is an easy, common and fatal mistake to assume that that which is difficult is not essential and that that which is easy is important.

[diomedes]

I find practicing at about 12 to 18 bpm below my fastest perfect speed is the sweet spot

When i find a passage that really intimidates me, i make certain i know it extremely well and can play it away from the piano. Then, at the piano I find the fastest possible speed where there is a zero error margin. That's what i consider "practice" that's extremely purposeful because the muscle memory at that point is critical. It's equally as critical as knowing your notes backwards and forwards etc. That's I learn problem areas.

[anamnesis]

There is much truth in this. The extent, however, varies from piece to piece.

That's true; however, the music where the composer truly goes of out his way to subvert this with a few rare exceptions tends to be attempted or performed less often, especially by your average player.  Even in select populations of piano nerds like this forum, you rarely see the music discussed (which is unfortunate).  Extrapolate that out to the general population....

There is also a certain degree of experience/expertise required to identify what is important and what is not. It is an easy, common and fatal mistake to assume that that which is difficult is not essential and that that which is easy is important.

I agree.  And I think the real issue is ambiguity as music gets more complex.  "Simpler" pieces of music are easy to interpret and understand as music because they are the least ambiguous and follow the conventions most closely.  More complex music is much harder and requires a more trained ear and knowledge to be able to follow it as music.  Some would argue that at some point some music gets so complex that your average listener just hears it as noise and can't understand it as music at all.  

[diomedes]

That's I learn problem areas.

That's how i learn problem areas.

The forum won't let me edit that post.....why? (my keyboard constantly disconnects from the pc, hence constant spelling errors. I should make a habit of re reading before i hit the post button, i'm aware....

Some would argue that at some point some music gets so complex that your average listener just hears it as noise and can't understand it as music at all.

Haha, yes, so much for advocating the late sonatas of Scriabin to the public in performance.

[nick]

There is much truth in this. The extent, however, varies from piece to piece.

There is also a certain degree of experience/expertise required to identify what is important and what is not. It is an easy, common and fatal mistake to assume that that which is difficult is not essential and that that which is easy is important.

I looked at some of the passages on op 10 #2, but still can not imagine the MOTION that would be different slow vs fast. Maybe it would have to be demonstrated as words fall short.

Once in a blue moon I will change a fingering at the faster tempo as it works better than I first thought, but very rarely. That is not what I was referring to. If you can think of a way to convey what you mean differently, let me know as I am curious. Thanks.

Nick

[nick]

When i find a passage that really intimidates me, i make certain i know it extremely well and can play it away from the piano. Then, at the piano I find the fastest possible speed where there is a zero error margin. That's what i consider "practice" that's extremely purposeful because the muscle memory at that point is critical. It's equally as critical as knowing your notes backwards and forwards etc. That's I learn problem areas.

You are probably doing it the way I do. My fastest speed with no errors I cannot repeat it over and over as the fingers will tire and then errors. This is why I take it down 12-18 bpm so I can repeat. The sweet spot. Then over some time I can move up 4-6 bpm and work my way up.

Nick

[anamnesis]

I looked at some of the passages on op 10 #2, but still can not imagine the MOTION that would be different slow vs fast. Maybe it would have to be demonstrated as words fall short.

Once in a blue moon I will change a fingering at the faster tempo as it works better than I first thought, but very rarely. That is not what I was referring to. If you can think of a way to convey what you mean differently, let me know as I am curious. Thanks.

Nick

The motions don't have to be different at all.  It's simply that the probability that you will stumble on the most efficient motions for certain passages is lower at slower speeds.

Most of the time for difficult passages, the most efficient motions that work at high speed are extremely difficult to play in slow motion because they just seem utterly ridiculous and require barely any perceptible effort from the fingers other than brief moments of stability. Your fingers shouldn't tire out at all even for something like 10 no 2, even when you are just starting out.   

[nick]

The motions don't have to be different at all.  It's simply that the probability that you will stumble on the most efficient motions for certain passages is lower at slower speeds.

I thought we were talking about different motions from slower practice that would not work at a faster speed. I am looking for example of that different motion, don't see it or imagine it.

 

Most of the time for difficult passages, the most efficient motions that work at high speed are extremely difficult to play in slow motion because they just seem utterly ridiculous and require barely any perceptible effort from the fingers other than brief moments of stability. Your fingers shouldn't tire out at all even for something like 10 no 2, even when you are just starting out.   

[/quote]

That is how I see the process, requiring barely any perceptible effort from the fingers, from slow to faster.

Fingers shouldn't tire at any speed? When the technique is not able to handle a given speed repeatedly, they will tire. Once I work it a little slower, repeatedly for a number of days, then I can play the speed that used to tire, now it does not,  even repeatedly.

 So you can play at performance speed without working up to it repeatedly without fingers tiring?



Nick

[anamnesis]

I thought we were talking about different motions from slower practice that would not work at a faster speed. I am looking for example of that different motion, don't see it or imagine it.

We are.  I'm just saying that you can practice the motions you discovered at high speed in slow motions.  That's different from using motions you discovered only at the slow level and trying to ramp that up fruitlessly.  It's the difference between running in "slow motion" versus trying to speed up your walking motions up to running speed.  The coordinations between walking and running are completely different.

That is how I see the process, requiring barely any perceptible effort from the fingers, from slow to faster.

Fingers shouldn't tire at any speed? When the technique is not able to handle a given speed repeatedly, they will tire. Once I work it a little slower, repeatedly for a number of days, then I can play the speed that used to tire, now it does not,  even repeatedly.

 So you can play at performance speed without working up to it repeatedly without fingers tiring?

Nick

Yes, your fingers shouldn't tire if you are using efficient motions.

Ingraining the motions, coordinations and learning the music is a different matter, however, and that just takes time.   

[diomedes]

Your fingers shouldn't tire out at all even for something like 10 no 2, even when you are just starting out.

I generally agree with that, but any learning process will have inefficiencies or inaccuracies. I understand physical struggles as that. So often when i'm learning stuff, even at my stage, there ill be a phase of exertion accompanied with sweating at times. Case in point, cadenza of the 2nd prokofiev concerto, at the final part of the learning process, absolutely no issue in execution. But prior to getting there, ugh was like fighting a siberian bear. A similar example is the 3rd chopin scherzo, which is fairly physical.

Although things like Chopin etudes might be different, especially with microscopic pianistic issues like the a minor and g sharp minor.

[j_menz]

I looked at some of the passages on op 10 #2, but still can not imagine the MOTION that would be different slow vs fast. Maybe it would have to be demonstrated as words fall short.

Then I suspect you are just looking at the chromatics - the 3-4-5 bits. You need to also consider the chords, which develop on the opening/closing of the hand more explicitly covered in 10/1. This affects the angle of the fingers available for the chromatics, and does so differently when going slow (where you have plenty of time to readjust the hand position) than when going at speed (where you don't). If you practice slowly with the hand adjustments (that you won't be able to do at speed), when you speed up it will all start to fall apart.

[anamnesis]

I generally agree with that, but any learning process will have inefficiencies or inaccuracies. I understand physical struggles as that. So often when i'm learning stuff, even at my stage, there ill be a phase of exertion accompanied with sweating at times. Case in point, cadenza of the 2nd prokofiev concerto, at the final part of the learning process, absolutely no issue in execution. But prior to getting there, ugh was like fighting a siberian bear. A similar example is the 3rd chopin scherzo, which is fairly physical.

Although things like Chopin etudes might be different, especially with microscopic pianistic issues like the a minor and g sharp minor.

Your right, that it does depend on the music, some pieces really are more physical and require more stamina than than others, but those are rarely the pieces of music under contention when people say they tire out or feel that they lack the technique.  

I don't really think of the most of the Chopin etudes require that sort of stamina, except when you play a series of them or entire sets.  

Then I suspect you are just looking at the chromatics - the 3-4-5 bits. You need to also consider the chords, which develop on the opening/closing of the hand more explicitly covered in 10/1. This affects the angle of the fingers available for the chromatics, and does so differently when going slow (where you have plenty of time to readjust the hand position) than when going at speed (where you don't). If you practice slowly with the hand adjustments (that you won't be able to do at speed), when you speed up it will all start to fall apart.

At least I know, I'm not crazy.  I have the same exact thoughts about how 10 no 2 is supposed to be approached, and it only came to me after working on 10 no 1 and 10 no 7 simultaneously.  Those pieces really are about the expansion and contraction of the hand (along with other things of course). 

[nick]

We are.  I'm just saying that you can practice the motions you discovered at high speed in slow motions.  That's different from using motions you discovered only at the slow level and trying to ramp that up fruitlessly.  It's the difference between running in "slow motion" versus trying to speed up your walking motions up to running speed.  The coordinations between walking and running are completely different.

Walking and running is apples and oranges, 2 different activities. One can walk slowly and speed it up and walk very fast. Apples. One can run very slowly and then move up in speed and run very fast. Oranges.  These are very large muscled activities and will look very different at the different speeds.
My slow practice looks very similar to my fast playing, not exactly but close. 

Yes, your fingers shouldn't tire if you are using efficient motions.

This is interesting. It does appear that when they tire the coordination is not quite right. But why? I slow it down 12 bpm and shaazam,  coordination. Then I stay there for some time repeating, then move up again and no problem, coordination and no tired fingers. I am attributing this fact to the coordination at a given speed must be repeated so the muscles, feel, get used to it. It does not appear the result of I did not know the correct movement at the higher speed. It is the same movement, but I just cannot handle it at the higher speed. This seems correct.

Nick

[nick]

Then I suspect you are just looking at the chromatics - the 3-4-5 bits. You need to also consider the chords, which develop on the opening/closing of the hand more explicitly covered in 10/1. This affects the angle of the fingers available for the chromatics, and does so differently when going slow (where you have plenty of time to readjust the hand position) than when going at speed (where you don't). If you practice slowly with the hand adjustments (that you won't be able to do at speed), when you speed up it will all start to fall apart.

I think I do the above as I progress in speed tempo. Example, the jump coming at the fast speed, if the 5th finger stretches out a little before the jump much easier to nail it. But for all intents and purposes, my slower speed movements look much like the faster. Interesting difference between approaches.

Nick

[anamnesis]

Walking and running is apples and oranges, 2 different activities. One can walk slowly and speed it up and walk very fast. Apples. One can run very slowly and then move up in speed and run very fast. Oranges.  These are very large muscled activities and will look very different at the different speeds.
My slow practice looks very similar to my fast playing, not exactly but close. 

That was the point.  The movements are completely different, and most students starting out will
use movements that are akin to walking for passages where they need to be able to run. 

 If you have some experience and know what works, it isn't as much of an issue until you across certain of passages that are beyond your skill level at the moment. 

For some pieces  like 10 no 2 the minimal differences do matter, and you have to somewhat blend the accuracy elements from slow play with the ease and freedom of the fast play, in such a way that they work together.   

[nick]

That was the point.  The movements are completely different, and most students starting out will
use movements that are akin to walking for passages where they need to be able to run. 

 If you have some experience and know what works, it isn't as much of an issue until you across certain of passages that are beyond your skill level at the moment. 

For some pieces  like 10 no 2 the minimal differences do matter, and you have to somewhat blend the accuracy elements from slow play with the ease and freedom of the fast play, in such a way that they work together.   

What I meant was the analogy is not accurate in my opinion, because when we play slowly vs fast, we cover the exact same distance, there is not larger spans requiring a different motion, unlike walking vs running.
  Anyway, you are one response that does not move up in speed to get the required tempo. I get that. Interesting. I don't understand it but that's ok. Enjoyed the discussion, thanks. Happy practicing!

Nick

[yadeehoo]

The speed chain is only as fast as it's weakest link.

[michael_sayers]

I'm curious how others approach a piece they know the notes well and need to get the speed to performance level. For myself, I find practicing at about 12 to 18 bpm below my fastest perfect speed is the sweet spot. Staying at that speed for maybe a week, then moving up another 6 to 8 bpm for the sweet spot which allows a faster top speed. When I have tried playing repeats at my fastest, I get sore joints, imperfections etc. I've even tried every other day practice but still the same. Back to the sweet spot.  How about you?

Nick

Hi Nick,

The method is the same as with the Liszt technical exercises, which is slow and forte-fortissimo [but without forcing the sound and just using a very deep source of weight and motion], and some variation involving fast and piano-pianissimo.

This approach to the technical side of the playing works quite well in my experience.


Mvh,
Michael

[cuberdrift]

Yeah this also is my concern.

How does one attain the skill of playing pieces very quickly - by practicing it several times at a SLOW tempo (like half the metronome mark), then playing at AT the tempo, or practicing it from SLOW, gradually moving UP the tempo?