Bach Prelude No. 2 in Cm from WTC Book 1

[rachfan]

J. S. Bach, WTC Vol. 1 Prelude & Fugue No. 2 in Cm

This is my first Bach recording since 1963.

This prelude is driven by a persistent animated broken-chord figuration. The fugue features three voices and four episodes. The only volumes I could find in my collected scores were the Schirmer’s Czerny editions (distributed in 1838). I found Czerny’s fingerings to be very sensible and practical. I recall once reading that Czerny (Beethoven’s piano teacher) sat and listened to Beethoven playing most of the preludes and fugues. He would then write into his scores the details of Beethoven’s renditions. Bach died in 1750 while Beethoven was not born until 1770, so Beethoven never directly heard Bach play these pieces. Whereas Bach gave few performance instructions, there is no real reason to follow those markings based on Beethoven’s preferences. I believe that Bach wanted all musicians to come up with their own interpretations. Also the early Maelzel metronomes of the day were notoriously unreliable, thereby leaving the pianist to select the tempos—which is as it should be. NOTE: I have split the Prelude and Fugue into two postings, as I believe that's the preference here.

David

Comments welcome.

Piano: Baldwin Model L Artist Grand (6’3”) with lid fully raised.
Recorder: Roland R-44
Mics: Matched pair of Earthworks TC-20 small diaphragm, omni-directional condenser mics in A-B configuration

[rachfan]

Just a note: The Fugue is in the same posting as the Prelude.  You can either listen there or download.  If anything, I believe the Fugue is the more exciting piece of the two. I hope you'll listen to them both.

David

[chopinlover01]

For the fugue, may I suggest that, with the subject, that the mordent figure be legato, and the two note figure after be stacatto? So, (legato) dadada da da, or something like that. I probably look crazy typing it
Just as an experiment, try playing the fugue as if it were by Chopin, it's fun to play around with it; it's very much a romantic piece, despite being written by Bach.

[michael_sayers]

Hi Rachman,

I enjoyed the recordings, and agree with the idea of freedom of interpretation.

To my ears the Prelude is nonetheless and perhaps a bit on the slow side.  Maybe quarter note = 115 is a sufficient minimum overall tempo, with significant stretto for measures 25 through 32 retained, and with a ritardando in measure 32 which leads into the adagio of measure 33?

I tend to take music at slower tempos than most pianists, and yet here a significantly slower than average tempo is not, in my opinion, justified by what is heard on the recording (and without emphasis on the highest and lowest voices independently of the inner two voices).

In summary - overall the interpretation is liked and admired, though maybe with the Prelude there would be benefit if the tempo of the interpretation were raised overall to at least quarter note = 115 b.p.m., and maybe as well there would be benefit from emphasis on the highest and lowest voices independently of the two inner voices.

[j_menz]

Hi David,

Czerny was Beethoven's pupil, not teacher. He was Liszt's piano teacher.

You seem slightly ill at ease with these, I think - or maybe we just see them differently. Not a fan of the tempo changes, particularly in the Prelude.

[rachfan]

Hi chopinlover,

As you know there are many conventions in playing Bach.  The persistent figure that you refer to appears in short slurs and longer phrases.  There is clear notation of what is legato, stacatto and non-legato touch.  The two 16th notes your refer to are plainly under slurs.  I believe that if I stray from that rule it will stir much criticism from those who know Bach far better than I.  This music cannot sound like Chopin simply because Chopin was a composer of the Romantic Age.  The style of the Baroque is very different indeed.  But thanks for listening and responding.

David   

[chopinlover01]

Hi chopinlover,

As you know there are many conventions in playing Bach.  The persistent figure that you refer to appears in short slurs and longer phrases.  There is clear notation of what is legato, stacatto and non-legato touch.  The two 16th notes your refer to are plainly under slurs.  I believe that if I stray from that rule it will stir much criticism from those who know Bach far better than I.  This music cannot sound like Chopin simply because Chopin was a composer of the Romantic Age.  The style of the Baroque is very different indeed.  But thanks for listening and responding.

David   

One could also argue that many of Bach's pieces are romantic pieces in nature, and that Bach does not need to be played mechanically.
The practice of doing things a certain way because the higher ups only approve of that way is rubbish.

[themeandvariation]

@Rachfan..  In the editions i have, there is no phrasing giving for the #2 fugue…  There has been much thought given to the idea of phrasing…One might benefit to explore  there…  Kirkpatrick goes into it quite thoroughly…  (Schweitzer mentions to look at the phrasing Bach wrote for violin, to get a clue of his articulation) … Schiff has a compelling case for the phrasing of Bach…  Not that one can deduce conclusively…  But one might consider such things while arriving at their own interpretation..
@Chopinlover…  "rubbish" ??  Which higher ups?  Are there certain recordings that demonstrate this mechanical quality?… I would agree that it should not sound mechanical… But is the  Romantic "aesthetic" singular in this idea of the 'mechanical'?  Perhaps it is a spectrum…and with the advent of 'rubato' only a more pronounced quality of something that was already employed before….
Cheers!  
ps… @Chopinlover…  Looking at the score structurally, one can see motivic cells that cross bar lines, and clearly need breath marks before the next phrase begins, if not before, depending on of there is a 'jump' in the melodic phrase, or repeated notes.. 
 Many ideas don't start  on the first beat…(look at the fugues for example.. )  as they do in much romantic  repertoire, giving a clue that maybe a romantic phrasing shouldn't  be something that is to be just plastered over the music of Bach…Though in some (perhaps many) it may 'work'   (depending on the piece )…. And because there is much in the way of polyphony, articulation is something that helps to bring out the compositional …(i dare say) 'power' of its construction…  I believe this compositional aspect is something to consider quite seriously when playing Bach… (They playing of legato consistently would muffle all the interior complexity).

[rachfan]

Hi michael,

A suggestion: You might want to go to YouTube and pull up this prelude and fugue as performed by Andras Schiff.  As you know, he's a foremost, extraordinary Baroque era pianist of our time.  I believe that you'll be quite surprised by the tempos he selected.  

In the prelude, for example, there is that episode marked presto.  I have to hold some speed in reserve in order cope with the presto, otherwise there would be little or no distinctive change in speed.  Then in the fugue toward the coda there are those bass octaves in 16th notes that need to be "shaken" out of the wrist with accuracy.  Sometimes I try to select a tempos that might be on the lower side of a tempo marking so as to better ensure accuracy in the playing.  Once I start playing too fast, errors occur. I believe that it's up to the performer to exercise judgment when it comes to tempo.  

While perhaps I was not attentive enough voicing the uppermost and lowermost notes, I was concentrating, especially in the fugue, on marking with voicing the entrance of subjects, especially the ones in the bass that are a bit surprising.

Thanks for listening and commenting.

David

[rachfan]

Hi j-menz,

Thanks for listening and commenting.

Egad, yes, Czerny was the pupil of Beethoven.  I probably didn't proofread that.  But it was Czerny listening to the master play these pieces while he penciled in the pianistic effects he heard.

I'm surprised that so far I haven't taken criticism for using the Czerny edition.  Incidentally, the Czerny edition also appeared in the Peters as well as the Kalmus publications.  I used to be gung-ho urtext.  But after listening to the last couple of Cliburn competitions, it seemed that everyone there was playing the same vanilla renditions!  Then it hit me why the pianists all sounded alike.  I believe it's because they all read and performed from the same urtexts.  Back when I was a student, we had a plethora of excellent editions for all styles.  Some were god-awful to be sure; but others were superb.  I mean, what can really be better than the  Paderewski editions of Chopin?  or Sauer's edition of Brahms Short Pieces, etc.? There were so many well-researched and authoritative editions of the times. That was an era when the pianists truly sounded different from one another!  I wish we could return to that.

Back to my recording.  Indeed there are several changes in tempo in the prelude.  Allegro vivace to presto to adagio (I ignored that one) to allegro to lento (I only took that direction for the last tailing notes).  I don't have another edition here to compare.  Nonetheless, I didn't mind doing most of the changes.

You're perceptive.  Yes I do feel slightly ill at ease when playing Bach.  That's why I haven't played a Bach piece since 1963.  When prospective students would call on Anton Rubinstein, he would refuse to hear their bravura pieces and instead insisted on any two of Mendelssohn "Songs without Words".  Rubinstein's reasoning was probably that those pieces are quite transparent--there's no place to hide there! Another example: Horowitz used to say that "He and Brahms were on bad terms".  He probably had his own reason.  For me it's the same with these Bach preludes and fugues.  So as a result I'm probably over-cautious in the playing.  

David

[rachfan]

Hi themeandvariation,

Yes, when it comes to phrasing this prelude and fugue in the Czerny edition, there is a lot!  In the opening of the prelude, there is a phrase mark over the two measures.  Down on line three it stops; however, I believe that Czerny was saying, "I showed you how to do it above, so continue with that phrasing."  In the fugue, there is more variation needed in the phrasing.  Much is due to differentiating between legato and staccato--sometimes between the hands or playing two different touches within the hand. 

Czerny wrote in fingering that always comported with common sense.  In that department I think he set the mark for Rafael Joseffy who came later.  Of course, everyone's hands are different, so there will always unavoidably be some experimentation.

David

   

[chopinlover01]

I did forget to mention, that in my copy of the Preludes and Fugues of Bach (Henle urtext), there are no slurs, possibly because largely back in the day people played everything detache- which is how I meant the two note figures to be, not necessarily staccato.
AS for the quote I said, I meant it more as a "don't let the down-looking of the professors prevent you from enjoying this music how you want".

[rachfan]

Hi chopinlover01,

"don't let the down-looking of the professors prevent you from enjoying this music how you want".

That's the reason in the fugue that I chose to use the the controversial octaves in the left hand in approaching the coda.  It's not staid and traditional, but instead adds to the excitement in the run up to the coda.

David

[chopinlover01]

As long as you do it well, there's not much of an issue.
*COUGH MICHAEL SAYERS COUGH*

[j_menz]

controversial octaves in the left hand in approaching the coda.  It's not staid and traditional

Well... actually..... Many German harpsichords of the day had double keyboards and/or multiple stringings. One of the few dynamic controls you had was to lock them in sync, thus creating - gasp - octaves! Sometimes one and sometimes a triple. Alexander Siloti excused his own use of octaves (in the face of criticism) by reference to this practice.

[rachfan]

Hi i_menz

That's very interesting historical information that puts a better light on that octave passage in the fugue (added by Czerny).  The Bach devotees often remind us that Bach is the "bible" for developing piano technique.  And in some respects they're probably right.  However, I looked at the octaves option in this fugue as a mini-etude (which was probably Czerny's intent).  To play that well and in tempo, one has to put the hand into "the octave mold" and then "shake" the octaves out of the wrist.  I think it's a very good training device that betters one's pianism.  

David

[themeandvariation]

Hi Rachfan…. just a few thoughts….  In the fugue, there are tied notes in the lower voice in measures 5 and 6 …  (you play them short… ) Also, along the same idea, in measure 6 in the upper voice on beat 4, the f is held to the first half beat of measure 7.  In measure 9, there is a question and answer going on  (not only with the upper voice which is then 'echoed' in the middle voice half way thru the measure…which you Do bring out) but Also with the first beat in the middle voice  as the quarter note g, being answered by the e flat in the upper voice, quarter note on the 3rd beat…and that pattern  continues into the next measure as well…  You play these notes staccato…they should be held for their full value, and perhaps even slightly accented …in order to reveal 2 ping pong games going on at the same time….  As the piece continues, there are similar places with ties, or where one hand is to play 2 voices, while one voice is holding while the other is moving -  as again in measure 22…   This helps to bring out the polyphony…  I do however know that you are aware of this idea, as you say: "or playing two different touches within the hand". … But in these places mentioned, you could employ that idea …and to great effect….  (To me, it makes the composition become almost 3 dimensional)…  Also, as the tempo is a bit bumpy, you might play it at a slower speed….  I hope this response has been helpful.
Cheers!

[rachfan]

Hi themeandvariation'

Thanks for your input!  I've notated the score accordingly.  In retrospect I do agree that I should have been more attentive to those ties.  As for the cases where the upper note is staccato and the lower note a tie, I believe the pianist needs to be keenly aware as you point out.  The problem in those is that staccato in and of itself is often a gesticulation of the hand, not just the finger.  In the playing it becomes a temptation to play both notes staccato, as I found out.  I agree that I didn't look carefully enough of managing the two touches correctly within the hand.

I have to admit that I haven't played Bach since 1963.  Since 2007 I've specialized in the Late Romantics, which is a far distant world from the Baroque and Rococo.  On a lark I decided to do something very different for a change, and it was truly a lot of fun playing this prelude and fugue.

Thanks again for your observations and suggestions.

David

  

[goldentone]

Hi David,

Good for you for adventuring into Bach's realm which is not your native territory.  You've had to take more criticism than usual, but that might not bother you too much knowing where your strengths lie.  The interesting bass octaves there struck my ear as a novelty in Bach as well.  Thanks for posting.

[michael_sayers]

Hi David,

Good for you for adventuring into Bach's realm which is not your native territory.  You've had to take more criticism than usual, but that might not bother you too much knowing where your strengths lie.  The interesting bass octaves there struck my ear as a novelty in Bach as well.  Thanks for posting.

My post was intended neither as criticism nor as discouragement.

[rachfan]

Hi goldentone,

Thanks for listening.  Yes, it's been a very long time since I last played Bach--53 years to be exact.  I was just thinking that I should wait another 53 years before playing Bach again.   

David

[rachfan]

Hi michael,

No problem.  I get reviews where some are kinder than others, which is to be expected.  The touring pros have written about this often.  I don't let it bother me, even if I disagree at times.  But I think from this thread most would conclude that I leave myself pretty much open to critiques. 

As a pianist, I live in the Late Romantic Era--not the Baroque, Rococo, nor the Classical styles.  It's a choice. I do respect the pianists who love to play those earlier styles, but it's just not me.  The piano literature is enormous such that if a pianist specializes as do I, a whole lifetime is pitifully short, disallowing any more than a scratch to be made on the surface of it all.  So it comes down to individual preferences in selecting repertoire, that's all.  And in the end we all play only for ourselves.

David 

[michael_sayers]

Hi David,

I am interested in every pianist from Ansorge to Zadora, so there isn't any stylistic criticism from me.  Ferruccio Busoni's edition of J.S. Bach's clavier works has added left hand octave doublings, as I think you may know.  Mainly I was interested to see if you would offer a reason for the choice of initial tempo in the Prelude - yet, there is no reason why you should offer such a reason, and likely it is best that you do not, as if you have been playing the piano since at least 1963 then one can presume that such things by now are no longer "choices", but are instead expressions of "who" you are - and, as such, the Prelude with tempo can be offered on a take it or leave it basis.  If someone doesn't like it, then it is for that person to deal with it and sort it out, yes?

I was most fascinated by the Fugue, and that when your dynamics increase your sound quality shifts to acquire a particular sort of energico - am I right that when this happens in the Fugue - and I am thinking of only one or two passages here in particular as being of this sort for the purposes of this question - you are during those beats not playing from key surface, but are descending into the keys and with either curved or "tightened" fingers of the right hand in particular?

I am curious, if you don't mind me asking - what hammer set is presently installed on your Baldwin Model L Artist Grand?  And maybe you can divulge the year of the piano?


Mvh,
Michael

[rachfan]

Hi michael,

I bought the polished ebony Baldwin Model L 6'3" new in 1984. This is considered to be a full grand that is positioned in between the Model R1 a medium grand which is 5'8" and the SF10E at 7'.  In 2007 we did a partial rebuilding.  I got advice from Del Fandrich who had been a Baldwin design engineer for many years.  The hammers (shanks and flanges included) are Ronsen Wurzen.  Copper strings are Arledge Bass Strings.  Steel strings are Mapes International Gold Musical Wire. Tuning pins are chrome one size up.  Key punchings are Crescendo Conical Wurzen on the front rail and Accelerated on the balance rail. 

Yes, I started piano studies in 1953.  I'm Old School.

Generally I always try not to drop into the keys by striking from above; rather I try whenever possible to be positioned on the keys and use a pressing motion to sound them.  For me it seems natural to use slightly curved fingers on natural keys and flat fingers on the ebony keys.  In playing the left hand octaves in the fugue, the hand took an octave mold, then I shook the octaves out from a relaxed wrist.

In the prelude there are several different tempos in the Czerny edition.  So I made sure that I would play it slower than expected in the beginning (as does Andras Schiff), that way retaining some speed to release when required.  Another thing I wanted to do was to clearly mark in the fugue the entrance of the three voices.

David

[michael_sayers]

Hi David,

1953 isn't Old School - 1853 is Old School.  Unless maybe you are noting all the pinging, banging and poking upon the keys which goes on nowadays and often even in what are supposed to be legato or cantabile musical lines.

The 1950s style musicology is about playing the music in the the composers' original [urtext] arrangements [never mind that the composers did not do this], which is not what you do.  Some such persons even feel J.S. Bach's clavier works are to be prohibited from performance on a 20th (and now 21st) century piano, or are to be expressed in a narrow range of dynamics and with no octave doubling, et c.

I think of you as you described, as a romantic style - not a 1950s style - pianist, and one with a sensible keyboard technique that only in recent decades finally went out of vogue.


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

p.s. - Thanks for the information on your piano.  The recording is good evidence that Del Fandrich knows his stuff.  I think that maybe the hammers need to be voiced down a little . . . or maybe it is how it was recorded.  Eventually and depending on use hammers don't hold their voicing as well, with a university concert grand this can happen in just two or three years . . . and those aren't even used nearly as much as a practice room grand piano.

[rachfan]

Hi michael,  

Voicing.  I do four tunings a year which is probably more than most of the pianists here.  It fits well with my recording projects too.  The tuner/tech/rebuilder does all of that.  He was last here early this month.  We discussed the voicing, as it has become more "bright" over the eight years since the partial rebuilding.  We did agree though that it also has a wonderful vibrancy.  I think I'll wait for the next tuning, and address it then.  I don't think it's really bad yet, but the sound should be a bit darker overall.

My problem with pianists today, holding up the Cliburn competitions as a good example, is that they all sound alike.  What I mean by that is that back in the day you could identify the playing of Rubinstein, Richter, Horowitz, and Serkin immediately.  Nowadays the young pianists all have the same plain vanilla sound.  They seem only to focus on getting the right notes.  There's a reason for that.  It's too easy for judges to dismiss a competitor because on one missed note.  Also the judges give a lot of lip service saying how important it is for a competitor to reveal a bit of their personality in their renditions.  False!  Behind closed doors that is seen as idiosyncratic playing. What do I blame for this?  Everyone playing from the same urtext.  

Decades ago we had marvelous editions which, thankfully, are still available: The Paderewski for all of Chopin, Sauer for Brahms' short works, and Joseffy for the Liszt "Annees de Pelerinage" as examples.  But admittedly there were also atrocious editions in the music stores of the day.  Carl Fisher with their collections of simplifications probably did disservices to students.  But serious musicians were always able to find the best editions with the help of their teachers.  The subtle differences of these and other noteworthy volumes made pianists more diverse in the sound of their playing.  Of course there were other factors too such as the abilities and preferences of piano teachers.  I admit to having some Henle volumes here but only because I was able to buy them at a discount.

Looking back at my own training in piano to my first teacher, I'm grateful for having been shown the relaxed arm technique for optimizing piano tone.  One of her teachers at New England Conservatory of Music was Albion Metcalf who studied with Matthay.  She also studied with David Barnett who was a student of Cortot.  And Miklos Schwalb who was a pupil of Dohnanyi.  Not all of that flows down to the next generation (like me), of course, but whatever did come through was a plus, I'm sure.

David      

[michael_sayers]

Hi michael,  

Voicing.  I do four tunings a year which is probably more than most of the pianists here.  It fits well with my recording projects too.  The tuner/tech/rebuilder does all of that.  He was last here early this month.  We discussed the voicing, as it has become more "bright" over the eight years since the partial rebuilding.  We did agree though that it also has a wonderful vibrancy.  I think I'll wait for the next tuning, and address it then.  I don't think it's really bad yet, but the sound should be a bit darker overall.

My problem with pianists today, holding up the Cliburn competitions as a good example, is that they all sound alike.  What I mean by that is that back in the day you could identify the playing of Rubinstein, Richter, Horowitz, and Serkin immediately.  Nowadays the young pianists all have the same plain vanilla sound.  They seem only to focus on getting the right notes.  There's a reason for that.  It's too easy for judges to dismiss a competitor because on one missed note.  Also the judges give a lot of lip service saying how important it is for a competitor to reveal a bit of their personality in their renditions.  False!  Behind closed doors that is seen as idiosyncratic playing. What do I blame for this?  Everyone playing from the same urtext.  

Decades ago we had marvelous editions which, thankfully, are still available: The Paderewski for all of Chopin, Sauer for Brahms' short works, and Joseffy for the Liszt "Annees de Pelerinage" as examples.  But admittedly there were also atrocious editions in the music stores of the day.  Carl Fisher with their collections of simplifications probably did disservices to students.  But serious musicians were always able to find the best editions with the help of their teachers.  The subtle differences of these and other noteworthy volumes made pianists more diverse in the sound of their playing.  Of course there were other factors too such as the abilities and preferences of piano teachers.  I admit to having some Henle volumes here but only because I was able to buy them at a discount.

Looking back at my own training in piano to my first teacher, I'm grateful for having been shown the relaxed arm technique for optimizing piano tone.  One of her teachers at New England Conservatory of Music was Albion Metcalf who studied with Matthay.  She also studied with David Barnett who was a student of Cortot.  And Miklos Schwalb who was a pupil of Dohnanyi.  Not all of that flows down to the next generation (like me), of course, but whatever did come through was a plus, I'm sure.

David      

Hi David,

I think we are approaching the end point of classical music in the way it is done today.  With seemingly every institution, occupation and industry now set to undergo significant challenges and change this century, I think all one has to do is sit back and wait.

What it boils down is that presumably the music schools, the music competitions, and the concert halls will not be able to financially justify themselves much longer.

The next crisis will, I suspect, start to significantly carry them over the precipice.  The U.S. has a crisis or a recession very frequently (2008, 2000, 1987, et c.).  And now it is 2015.  These crises and recessions serve an essential and corrective economic function that can not be prevented.

So I don't worry or fret about it.

They should worry about it though instead of counting wrong notes.


Mvh,
Michael

[rachfan]

Hi Michael,

You're right.  Conservatories, competitions and concert halls are all facing financial pressures.  Some community orchestras have vanished.  Conservatories accept large numbers of students, but jobs in the music world are scarce to say the least.  If you walk into a concert hall the first thing you notice is that nearly everyone has grey hair.  Young people have not chosen classical music despite efforts such as music appreciation, cultural lectures, youth orchestras, etc.  I recall when I graduated high school in 1963. I had built up some good "credentials".  I had the Paderewski Gold Medal from the American College of Musicians, a piano diploma from the National Guild of Piano Teachers, a scholarship, a gift of some piano scores, played my senior recital, and also played as a finalist in a competition in Boston.  I felt a sense of accomplishment.  But as I considered my future, I did not continue on that path. I'm a practical thinker, so instead I went to university, got the B.A. degree and later the M.B.A. and made my career in the corporate world.  As years went by I was sometimes briefly haunted by my decision; however, it was the best thing I could have done for myself.  And since then I've enjoyed spending my time in both worlds--a good career in business and a wonderful hobby in playing the piano! It's been like having a vocation and an avocation too.  

David

[michael_sayers]

Hi Michael,

You're right.  Conservatories, competitions and concert halls are all facing financial pressures.  Some community orchestras have vanished.  Conservatories accept large numbers of students, but jobs in the music world are scarce to say the least.  If you walk into a concert hall the first thing you notice is that nearly everyone has grey hair.  Young people have not chosen classical music despite efforts such as music appreciation, cultural lectures, youth orchestras, etc.  I recall when I graduated high school in 1963. I had built up some good "credentials".  I had the Paderewski Gold Medal from the American College of Musicians, a piano diploma from the National Guild of Piano Teachers, a scholarship, a gift of some piano scores, played my senior recital, and also played as a finalist in a competition in Boston.  I felt a sense of accomplishment.  But as I considered my future, I did not continue on that path. I'm a practical thinker, so instead I went to university, got the B.A. degree and later the M.B.A. and made my career in the corporate world.  As years went by I was sometimes briefly haunted by my decision; however, it was the best thing I could have done for myself.  And since then I've enjoyed spending my time in both worlds--a good career in business and a wonderful hobby in playing the piano! It's been like having a vocation and an avocation too.  

David

Hi David,

The music world needs more persons who, as with you, have a background in business.  The days of ivory tower privilege for classical music are coming to an end, and soon it will have to compete on a much more level playing field with the rest of the music market.

At least crisis usually is a cleverly disguised form of opportunity.  Just think about Switzerland's dim central bankers, pegging their safe haven currency to the Euro, and letting individuals, governments and institutional investors buy tens of billions of dollars worth of Swiss Francs at a discount . . . and now the Swiss people have been left on the hook for such disastrous and flawed economic thinking from their central bankers [do those central bankers even know the function of prices in a market, or that they created an interventionist and risk free trade which "everyone" would pile into for diversifying into Swiss Francs much more so than otherwise?].  And there are persons in Germany and elsewhere who had mortgages denominated in Swiss Francs but whose income is in Euros - and now they effectively owe 33% more.  Investors are having to sell their homes to make up losses and pay the debts from a massively over leveraged short position related to the Swiss Franc to Euro price peg - but there, too, are investors who were long the Swiss Franc and accumulated much while it was cheap, and understood what was happening and what would happen given sufficient time.

Though things can be done the same way and unchanging for a very long period of time - just think of how many centuries the aristocracies in Europe wielded near ultimate power, and then in a few decades that was wiped away in a flash - as Schumpeter's waves of creative destruction wash over the classical music world, it will (I suspect) be over and done with in a relatively small number of years, and those years will be a GOLDEN opportunity for any sufficiently well equipped person who is outside of the established classical music monopolistic structures and power systems to come in and stake a decisive claim.

Timing is impossible . . . no one could have pinned a date on a calender years in advance for when the Swiss central bank would have become sufficiently overwhelmed as to be forced to give up the peg . . . but foresight and foreknowledge of inevitable events is achievable.

p.s. - The price peg of the Danish Krone to the Euro still is being clung to, and laughably so in my opinion.  This sentence IS NOT financial or investment advice, and neither is anything else in this post, but maybe here is something for you to look into my friend . . .


Mvh,
Michael

[rachfan]

Hi Michael,

That's certainly an erudite scenario you describe.  My expertise though is in administration rather than finance.  But more importantly, where I'm elderly now, for the last few years I've been semi-retired, but full retirement will surely follow.  This presents an opportunity to spend more time at the piano and making home recordings.  So ironically I can put more time into my avocation.  I'm looking forward to it!

David

[michael_sayers]

Hi Michael,

That's certainly an erudite scenario you describe.  My expertise though is in administration rather than finance.  But more importantly, where I'm elderly now, for the last few years I've been semi-retired, but full retirement will surely follow.  This presents an opportunity to spend more time at the piano and making home recordings.  So ironically I can put more time into my avocation.  I'm looking forward to it!

David

Hi David,

I can hear that you are a pianist of long experience and with plenty of ideas, so I hope that this will transpire for you as predicted . . . with recordings and much practice . . . and maybe with a little excursion someday to the Stockholm archipelago!


Mvh,
Michael

[rachfan]

Hi Michael

Actually I'm 25% Swedish and Danish through my maternal grandmother.  Her father was Danish and born in Copenhagen in 1864, and her mother was born in Molndal in 1867. Both came to the U.S. and married here in 1888.

Best regards,

David

[michael_sayers]

Hi Michael

Actually I'm 25% Swedish and Danish through my maternal grandmother.  Her father was Danish and born in Copenhagen in 1864, and her mother was born in Molndal in 1867. Both came to the U.S. and married here in 1888.

Best regards,

David

Hi David,

Then maybe you can speak some Svenska, and not only Engleska?  And maybe, therefore, you can speak in Svengelska or in Swenglish [the two are not synonymous, contrary to what one would suppose]?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swenglish


Mvh,
Michael

[rachfan]

Hi Michael

That was an interesting article on Engleska.  But apart from that, I seem to remember the babbooshka and the bumbershoot.  Are those Svenska?  My grandmother knew a surprising number of Swedish words that she got from her parents, but it was so long ago. 

Mvh,

David

[michael_sayers]

Hi Michael

That was an interesting article on Engleska.  But apart from that, I seem to remember the babbooshka and the bumbershoot.  Are those Svenska?  My grandmother knew a surprising number of Swedish words that she got from her parents, but it was so long ago.  

Mvh,

David

Hi David,

I regret to report that, though I commune with the Furies on a daily basis, and also with the Graces, Fates, Muses and Sirens - and am regularly in attendance to the requests of Aphrodite, Dionysus, and Zeus - my knowledge of Svenska is nil and is limited to courtesies.

Swedes are tremendously skilled English speakers, and they are eager to practice their skills.

Communication here in English is no more of a challenge than it was back in Dallas, Texas.  Everyone here speaks English, and often much better than most Brits, Americans, Australians, et c., and with all colloquialisms and turns of phrase included.

And as such, my knowledge of and skill for Svenska is likely and sadly to remain nil for the foreseeable future.

I will attend to this deficiency, someday.


Mvh,
Michael

[stevensk]

Nice, but:
The negativ thing is that you play a little bit rytmically unbalanced and your hands are poorly synchronized. Im sure that you can come over this whith more practise

[michael_sayers]

Nice, but:
The negativ thing is that you play a little bit rytmically unbalanced and your hands are poorly synchronized. Im sure that you can come over this whith more practise

Hi stevensk,

The rhythmic imbalance in my playing is intentional, as is the asynchronization of my hands.  About piano practice, I could go back to what I used to do and never practice again, and I would still be able to play just fine except for a wrong note here and there.

Thanks though for you observations!


Mvh,
Michael

[themeandvariation]

Michael, are you saying that You made the recording posted by Rachfan?  Perhaps, better that, (trickery?) I suppose, than to conclude that you don't have a keen sense of boundary… which can be construed as "delusions of… gr******" ….  (neither option too savory  )

[michael_sayers]

Michael, are you saying that You made the recording posted by Rachfan?  Perhaps, better that, (trickery?) I suppose, than to conclude that you don't have a keen sense of boundary… which can be construed as "delusions of… gr******" ….  (neither option too savory  )

Hi themeandvariation,

You don't think that stevensk was talking about my piano playing?  Please consider: my post was directly above his, and his post did not address Rachfan - stevensk's post was issued in direct reply to my post which is the nearest possible antecedent reference.

What else is there to conclude based on all of that?


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

Hi David,

Please accept my apology that members are coming in here to talk about my playing in what is supposed to be a thread about your playing.  I am very sorry about this!


Mvh,
Michael

[themeandvariation]

@ M. Sayers…  I am not convinced that Stevensk was referring to your playing… To me it is logical that he was commenting on Rachfan's recording… However, if he was (for some reason….  but then why not post his comment on your thread?) commenting about your playing…  on some other piece that is Not in this thread,  ….. then I apologize… (it Was meant in fun, Michael)
Stevensk, what say you?

[michael_sayers]

@ M. Sayers…  I am not convinced that Stevensk was referring to your playing… To me it is logical that he was commenting on Rachfan's recording… However, if he was (for some reason….  but then why not post his comment on your thread?) commenting about your playing…  on some other piece that is Not in this thread,  ….. then I apologize… (it Was meant in fun, Michael)
Stevensk, what say you?

Hi themeandvariation,

Maybe stevensk couldn't find the thread of mine he was thinking of, and just addressed his thoughts to me in a general way?  Please observe: he said that my post is "nice", and it is nice - and very well written, in my opinion - so I do think that for this reason, and in addition to the other reasons listed, we can reach a definite conclusion as to what post it is that is the post to which stevensk has replied.


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

Hi Everyone,

As this is David's thread, maybe you all can stop talking about my piano playing in it?  He and I were having friendly discussion, and it was not about my piano playing.


Mvh,
Michael

[themeandvariation]

There is nothing is Stevensk's response that, to my mind, has anything to do with your comment immediately above his…. 
I'll wait for Stevensk's response…
Cheers!

[michael_sayers]

Hi themeandvariation,

David may not be very happy when he sees what you all have done to his thread.


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

There is nothing is Stevensk's response that, to my mind, has anything to do with your comment immediately above his….  
I'll wait for Stevensk's response…
Cheers!

Hi themeandvariation,

Stevensk said that my post is nice - which it was! - and then he went on to talk about my piano playing.

Please, everyone, show some respect to David.


Mvh,
Michael

[rachfan]

Hi Everyone,

I've been a member here at PianoStreet since January 2003 and have enjoyed contributing a great many recordings over the years.  I can assure you that people listening know the sound of my Baldwin and my style of playing very well.  Just about everyone also knows that I specialize in the Late Romantics, not the Baroque.  I posted this piece  by Bach just for fun as a personal challenge, knowing that there are many pianists here who are far better interpreters of Bach. I haven't played a piece by Bach since 1963, so it took some courage even to post it.   

Nobody appreciates having their thread hijacked.  It's a breach of courtesy.  I would greatly appreciate it if those who are involved in this kindly erase their comments and take that dispute elsewhere.  I'm here for the music, nothing else.

Thank you.

David   

[michael_sayers]

Hi Everyone,

I've been a member here at PianoStreet since January 2003 and have enjoyed contributing a great many recordings over the years.  I can assure you that people listening know the sound of my Baldwin and my style of playing very well.  Just about everyone also knows that I specialize in the Late Romantics, not the Baroque.  I posted this piece  by Bach just for fun as a personal challenge, knowing that there are many pianists here who are far better interpreters of Bach. I haven't played a piece by Bach since 1963, so it took some courage even to post it.   

Nobody appreciates having their thread hijacked.  It's a breach of courtesy.  I would greatly appreciate it if those who are involved in this kindly erase their comments and take that dispute elsewhere.  I'm here for the music, nothing else.

Thank you.

David

Hi David,

I admire your piano playing and your thinking upon music, and as well I think there is much I could learn from you, and for reason of all such things and others not stated I endeavor to treat you with dignity and respect.  I recognize that here I have participated in a breach of courtesy when private messages between members would have be more appropriate.  Please forgive me.

If you ever want to visit Stockholm, please let me know.


Mvh,
Michael

[stevensk]

What? Now I am confused, my post was about Rachfan playing Bach WTC.  Is Rachfan and Michael Sayers the same user?
Anyway, If the rytmical imbalnce is intentional or not doesnt really matter, I  prefer a more stable plying when it comes to JS Bach