fast practice and hand injuries

[Daniel_piano]

I was wondering about a thing
We've discussed a lot about the "playing fast first" theory, according to which we should bring our pieces to speed bar by bar playing fast first to detect the correct movements at speed and then playing slow motion after that, or also alternate fast and slow speed
Right?

Now, even Chang in his book says that when you play fast first "it's impossible to play relaxed" because without any gradually slow speed to fast speed conditioning you can't be completely relaxed

I've been suffering from mild tendonitis lately and according to my teacher it is due to playing fast before having done enough slow speed practice
It makes sense, even Chang admits it somewhat
So, when you see a bar for the first time and have to play it faster than performance speed in order to be able to detect the right movements at slow speed you're very likely, if you play that fast first, not to be relaxed at all but very tense

So it's clear that if not used properly the "playing fast first" theory can become more dangerous than slow speed practice

I wonder what could be the solution to such danger
Playing it faster just once so that even if you're not relaxed there are not enough repetition to cause stress and damage?
or make pauses, stops; what else ?

Any thought

Thanks

Daniel

[jazzyprof]

Finding the correct hand motions for fast play is part of the exploratory period.  It will probably involve some trial and error.  Once you've discovered the correct motions, you should only do a few fast repetitions to be sure that these motions indeed work.  You are not really practicing these fast motions, only testing them, so only a few repetitions are necessary.

Then you begin your slow motion practice.  Here you do many repetitions in slow motion.  You're totally relaxed and in control.  However, an amazing thing will begin to happen.  As you practice these slow motion movements accurately, eventually your hand will naturally want to go faster.  It's almost like trying to drive a Porsche Carrera slowly:  it's got so much horsepower that it naturally wants to speed up.  Because your hand now knows how to go fast, it has acquired the horsepower and you may find that you have to actually force yourself to go slowly!  You can gradually increase your speed while making sure at all times that you're playing without undue tension.  

[Brian Healey]

Well, everyone's different. I usually don't practice the speed of a piece until I attain complete accuracy at a very slow speed. I don't really understand the point to playing something fast first. I've found that starting off slow allows you to find the correct motions that will allow you to play fluidy. When you then practice speed, you use the same motions, but "tighten" them as you go faster. By tighten, I mean making the motions smaller and more compact to match the speed. This works well for me.

[bravuraoctaves]

I follow roughly the method that a pianist on rec.music.makers.piano gave,  which was :

Actually, i would disagree with the slow practice bit.  When I learn a
piece, I play it up to tempo FIRST, mistakes and all.  Playing quickly
in the learning stage helps the muscles learn and remember how to move
quickly.  Once I have grasped what kind of motion and movement is
needed for fast passage, then I learn the notes.  This really only
works if you can sight read well.

Maria, if your forearms ever get tight, you arent using your shoulders
and torso enough.  10 times out of 10 this is true.  Chopin studies
are rough!  Everyone in the world is still working on them.  You have
to incorporate the large muscles (shoulder) in order to play them or
anything else.  Period.  Good luck.  By the way, learn the double
third scales.  I do them all through twice a day, once staccato and
once legato.

[Daniel_piano]

Finding the correct hand motions for fast play is part of the exploratory period.  It will probably involve some trial and error.  Once you've discovered the correct motions, you should only do a few fast repetitions to be sure that these motions indeed work.  You are not really practicing these fast motions, only testing them, so only a few repetitions are necessary.

Thanks for your answer
So, I'm supposed to just play a very small piece fast twice or three times
and then switch to slow motion practice?
Do you use this method?
Do you think this may prevent possible injuries you may get from playing fast first?

Also, I wonder: after you've witched from fast to slow motion should you bring the piece up to speed gradually (put always using the same motions you will use at fast speed) or maybe you just repeat the small passage a lot of times at slow motion and then switch again immediately to fast motion
So, when you use slow motion practice do you use gradually increment of speed or just switch from slow to fast?

Then you begin your slow motion practice.  Here you do many repetitions in slow motion.  You're totally relaxed and in control.  However, an amazing thing will begin to happen.  As you practice these slow motion movements accurately, eventually your hand will naturally want to go faster.

Yes I've noticed this too
repetition by repetition the hand wnt to go faster as it get aquaninted with the small passages movements and rhythm
But I've noticed this especially when I switch from right hand to left hand
When I play the passage with the left hand I let my hand rest and after few seconds or minutes when I switch again to right hand, the hand wants to go faster, actually, it is able to go faster now
Should I slow it dows in this case or let the hand choose the speed it wants?

I also wondered if you have ever used the alternating fast and slow practice that Chang himself suggests, once or twice slow and once or twice fast and so on till you have the passage at speed

Now, a summary of this wouold be:

You can injury by using the "playing fast first" method if you

1) choose a passage that is too long
2) play the fast exploratory speed first too many times

But you can avoid injuries if you

1) choose a very small passage
2) do very few fast exploratory repetitions before switching to slow motion practice

Is that right ?

I also wonder another thing
If you use this method, do you have ever experinced the problem of having to find the correct hand motion of a small passage by playing it fast first few times before switching to slow motion, but your fingers are somehwat not able to move at such fast speed even if the passage is very small and the
repetition are vey few... you simply can't even do one repetition of the small passage at such a speed
If that happened to you, what did you do in this instance?

Thanks a lot for your precious answer

Daniel

[jazzyprof]

Thanks for your answer
So, I'm supposed to just play a very small piece fast twice or three times
and then switch to slow motion practice?
Do you use this method?
Do you think this may prevent possible injuries you may get from playing fast first?

In general, yes, you play a small segment at tempo a few times and then switch to slow motion practice.  I hesitate to attach an exact number to "a few" because, to use auto terminology, your actual mileage may vary.  For some segments, you may not need to switch to slow motion practice at all because the fast motions are already easy, comfortable, accurate, and without stress.  For other segments it could be three or four fast repetitions.  You will definitely feel the tension build up if you do too many repetitions at speed in the exploratory phase when you're not ready.  So let's say you do roughly three repetitions at high speed for a difficult passage, just to see if those motions work.  Then you switch to slow motion, focusing on accuracy and tone.  Indeed, I use this method.  As to whether it will prevent injury, I really cannot say for sure, except that I know when I do too many repetitions at high speed when I am not ready for it, I do feel the tension in my hands.  So I stop.
   

Also, I wonder: after you've witched from fast to slow motion should you bring the piece up to speed gradually (put always using the same motions you will use at fast speed) or maybe you just repeat the small passage a lot of times at slow motion and then switch again immediately to fast motion
So, when you use slow motion practice do you use gradually increment of speed or just switch from slow to fast?

Actually here I use a variety of methods.  I see no problem with slowly cranking up the speed during slow motion practice (using the correct movements).  For some particularly difficult passages I may use a metronome and slowly crank up the tempo a notch or two, if I've been able to play the passage perfectly a couple of times at the previous tempo.  Then I may jump to full speed and try to play it without error.  If it falls apart I go back to a slower tempo. 

Occasionally I will play along with a slowed down midi file of a performance by one of my favorite pianists.  I can slowly turn up the speed and see if I can keep up with them.  Jazz players have always used play-along records but in classical piano some might say you shouldn't do that because you'll lose your individuality end up sounding like, say, Horowitz.  Personally, I wouldn't mind that at all.

Yes I've noticed this too
repetition by repetition the hand wnt to go faster as it get aquaninted with the small passages movements and rhythm

Should I slow it dows in this case or let the hand choose the speed it wants?

I think you should just let the hand choose the speed it can handle without stress while maintaining accuracy and good tone.  No need to slow it down except when errors creep in.

I also wondered if you have ever used the alternating fast and slow practice that Chang himself suggests, once or twice slow and once or twice fast and so on till you have the passage at speed

I'm sure I do something like that as well, part of the arsenal of tools I bring to bear on a piece.  I think of piano practice as more an art than a science so I may try different approaches on a passage without being conscious of it.  This also keeps the session interesting.

Now, a summary of this wouold be:

You can injury by using the "playing fast first" method if you

1) choose a passage that is too long
2) play the fast exploratory speed first too many times

But you can avoid injuries if you

1) choose a very small passage
2) do very few fast exploratory repetitions before switching to slow motion practice

Is that right ?

Again, that sounds quite sensible.  However I would hesitate to offer any guarantees that you will avoid injury if, and only if, you do such and such a thing.  The important thing is to be in tune with your body and to stop at the slightest hint of pain. 

I also wonder another thing
If you use this method, do you have ever experinced the problem of having to find the correct hand motion of a small passage by playing it fast first few times before switching to slow motion, but your fingers are somehwat not able to move at such fast speed even if the passage is very small and the
repetition are vey few... you simply can't even do one repetition of the small passage at such a speed
If that happened to you, what did you do in this instance?

If I can't do even one repetition of the small passage at speed, I make it even smaller.  Surely I can play one note at speed.  Then two. 

Of course you'd like to play an entire phrase at speed and often times there are such things as big leaps that defy you to play them at speed.  Even in those cases, you can take your best shot at the high speed motions.  It may be quite sloppy.  But then immediately settle down to slow practice using your best guess of the correct high speed motion.  After many days of slow practice, speed will come.  If it turns out that the slow motions you were using are not quite appropriate at fast speed, you will eventually hit what Chang calls a speed wall.  However, I don't believe that's necessarily a disaster because a phase transition will occur when you hit that speed wall and your hand will adjust its ways in order to go faster.  I don't believe that you have to "unlearn" those imperfect slow motions.  You hand simply learns the new motions that work at high speed.  Did you waste your time with those imperfect slow motions that don't quite work at high speed?  I don't think so.  In the process of making those slow repetitions you probably memorised that phrase and got it under your fingers in the sense that your fingers know where to go if not exactly how to get there.  The phase transition that occurs at the speed wall may involve such things as more wrist movement or hand rotation to get you there faster.

I hope I've answered your questions.

[Daniel_piano]

I hope I've answered your questions.

Yes, you did
But I've still a doubt, and even if I know it's personal and subjective I'd like to know your subjective opinion on this

what do you think is the best way of proceed among these options:

1) mark the hard passages and through fast explorations first and slow motion practice then, bring the passage at speed AT ONCE

2) mark the hard passages play fast explorations first and then keep playing it until it is learned, but wait to have the whole piece learned before bringing the passages at fast speed

3) Learn the whole piece bar by bar slow motion first, and when it is learned bring the whole speed to  fast speed AT ONCE, not bar by bar


What I'm basically asking if you have to work in bringing the piece at speed as you lern the piece, or if you first learn the piece, master the technique demanding passage and then work on briging the speed at piece is a second moment

Also, I wonder what do you think of this method by Brent Hugh:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
11. Metronome with sudden leaps in tempo

Proceed as in the previous method (metronome up/down in steps). But after completing each step, just try the section at your goal tempo.

If the tempo you can actually play a section is 84 and your goal tempo is 104, a practice session with this method might go like this:

80 no mistakes

104 (try it) disastrous

84 no mistakes

104 (try it) a little less disastrous

88 a mistake

84 no mistakes

104 (try it) still quite disastrous

88 no mistakes

104 (try it) getting gradually less disastrous

92 no mistakes

104 (try it) not so disastrous now

96 no mistakes

104 (try it) good

Advantages:

Some research has shown that those who practice by this method achieve their goal tempo sooner than those who practice simply with metronome up/down in steps. (It is debatable which method leads to better long-term retention, however.)

Practicing more of the time up to tempo (if you can do it!) may be more productive, because technique (the muscles you use, how you control them) at the actual tempo is quite different from technique at a slow tempo
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

Thanks a lot for your help
Daniel

[anda]

I've been suffering from mild tendonitis lately and according to my teacher it is due to playing fast before having done enough slow speed practice

just one thing - if you are tendonitis-proned , you will have to pay extra-attention at all times at the way your hand feels, and keep it relaxed no matter what. "playing fast" will never get you tendonitis - not paying attention at your hands and not relaxing, that will.

[tocca]

Just following up on what anda said:
If you, like you say, have recently been suffering from mild tendonitis i'd recommend taking it VERY easy for a while!!

Take it easy, don't play fast if you're feeling even a tiny bit strain. It'll take a couple of weeks atleast to get rid of the tendonitis IF you take it easy. If you push it, it might in best case take months. If you're unlucky you'll be stuck with it for a very long time!

I agree with the "try fast first" theory though. Some people might not need it, they practise slowly in the correct way anyway. But until you're sure you know the correct movement for the specific technical difficulty you're facing, it can't be a bad thing to play it fast to make sure first!