"Traditional" male and female roles

[Bob]

I was just wondering this after reading the following thread (not because of the  thread that just happens to be in front of this one at the moment):

"gender differences in playing style"
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5480.0.html

So, what are those traditional roles or ideals?

Men:
Strong, cool and rationale, more utilarian/"ugly", the worker, the mechanic and yard worker...

Women:
Pretty, weaker (unless it's a motherly instinct), more into the expression, talking alot, the mother, the housekeeper...


What else?  Do you agree/disagree?  Or have any other thoughts?

[Nightscape]

This is interesting, because I just recently wrote a whole journal entry on masculinity/femininity on my online journal.

I'll reproduce it for you:

The people in my dorm are APES.  Yes, APES.  They make ape noises, and seem to have the intelligence and maturity of apes.  As I am writing this, they are out in the hall, drunk and yelling various obscenities.  While trying to be as masculine as possible, of course.

Ah, masculinity.  The Mask of Masculinity as I like to think of it.  I wonder where my suitemates learned to behave this way.... it can't be natural, since there are several other cultures that do not engage in this behavior at all.  There are numerous tribes around the world where the men are "feminine" and the women are "masculine", the roles are reversed.  So it must be a cultural thing then, a learned trait.

I don't consider myself to be masculine or feminine.... I think the word for this is androgynous.  So that means that I try my best to use the pros of femininity and masculinity while avoiding the cons.  Overall, I think that this is the most logical and least stressful way of going about things.  Many men and women feel anxiety on a daily basis, because they feel like they have to supress certain feelings and exaggerate others.  Well this is what I have to say about that....

Free yourselves!  You don't have to "be a man" anymore!  This isn't the stone age after all.  Why would you want to "be a man" anyway?  To earn the respect of other so-called "men"?  Who cares about their opinion! As "men", they will never appreciate life in it's fullest.... they'll be too busy worrying about their masculine image.

Now wait a second though.... I'm not advocating that you denouce all masculinity as wrong though.  As stressful as it is to be purely masculine, it is equally stressful to be purely feminine.  There are many good masculine traits: confidence, boldness, self-restraint, and mental endurance to name a few.  But don't forget the good feminine traits either: compassion, grace, humility, jealousy (wait....)

So all you have to do is learn to accept yourself.... and everything will immediately become much less of a burden.  You shouldn't have to roleplay your entire life to gain the approval of others.  Because in the end, you will look back and be regretful of all the time you wasted trying to be someone else.

[m1469]

I was just wondering this after reading the following thread (not because of the thread that just happens to be in front of this one at the moment):

"gender differences in playing style"
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5480.0.html

So, what are those traditional roles or ideals?

Men:
Strong, cool and rationale, more utilarian/"ugly", the worker, the mechanic and yard worker...

Women:
Pretty, weaker (unless it's a motherly instinct), more into the expression, talking alot, the mother, the housekeeper...


What else? Do you agree/disagree? Or have any other thoughts?

Hi Bob  ,

While I would agree that in some places the roles you have listed above can be typical, there are of course exceptions. 

A wonderful example is showing itself these days, particularly in the athletic arenas.   More and more, women are athletes not just "women".  They resemble in every way what it means to be an athlete;  strength, agility, stamina, drive, commitment, focus, etc..  Is this masculine or feminine ?  I personally feel that labels like that are strictly social and with time will be grown out of.

m1469

[Bob]

Is that good or bad though?  I wonder if we lose something.  And probably just more of something else.

Some of it seems like it would be natural.  For example, there are the little games or situation that can happen -- A girl needs help on something.  The guy steps in and helps the girl.  Voila!  The two have met, etc, etc, etc.... The guy feels good about helping the girl.  And the girl may even have used the situation to "get" a guy.  I wonder if this is some social thing that has evolved.

[m1469]

Is that good or bad though?  I wonder if we lose something.  And probably just more of something else.

Some of it seems like it would be natural.  For example, there are the little games or situation that can happen -- A girl needs help on something.  The guy steps in and helps the girl.  Voila!  The two have met, etc, etc, etc.... The guy feels good about helping the girl.  And the girl may even have used the situation to "get" a guy.  I wonder if this is some social thing that has evolved.

What would be lost ?  Your scenario ?  People will always need eachother.  The ways in which that occurs may morph a little though.  This may be somewhat frightening because it is change, but that doesn't make it bad.  Don't you think ?

[chopiabin]

Funny story about masculinity:
Tonight a bunch of kids in my hall who try to impress each other with how manly, wealthy, and "smart" they all are decided to trick one of the most deperate of their group. One of the kids was drinking peppermint tea, and they told the desperate kid that it was this hebal tea that would get you really high. They gave it to him, and after a few minutes he began acting like an idiot and talking about how "wild" it was. This went on for about six hours. When they told him the truth, he tried to play it off and act like he had been perfectly normal - needless to say, it was HILARIOUS. I was actually amazed to see how far someone would go to fit in. 

[Bob]

What would be lost ?  Your scenario ?  People will always need eachother.  The ways in which that occurs may morph a little though.  This may be somewhat frightening because it is change, but that doesn't make it bad.  Don't you think ?

I'm not quite sure.  It would have something to do with both sides feeling good about something.  From the guy's perspective it would be the idea that he helped a pretty girl and fulfilled his role and a man.

I'm just not sure the "traditional" roles are all bad.  I can see how being forced or stuck in the role would be though.

[m1469]

Yeah, you're right.  I will admit that I am a bit of a sucker for a knight in shining armor and a heated rescue scene.  I even enjoy having doors opened for me and meals ordered for me. 

But, I also enjoy my freedom to choose what I want and when I want it.  Perhaps it has something to do with sensitivity, timing, and wisdom.  I don't know though, I am just a girl   

m1469

[Brian Healey]

The people in my dorm are APES.  Yes, APES.  They make ape noises, and seem to have the intelligence and maturity of apes.  As I am writing this, they are out in the hall, drunk and yelling various obscenities.  While trying to be as masculine as possible, of course.

Ahhhh.......drunk and yelling obscenities........

I miss college 

[m1469]

I'm not quite sure.  It would have something to do with both sides feeling good about something.  From the guy's perspective it would be the idea that he helped a pretty girl and fulfilled his role and a man.

Hi Bob, you know, I have been thinking further on this subject.  I am a woman who was brought up feeling a great pressure to become "only" a housewife with kids and all that.  I have to say I have somewhat despised this because I have passions that I want to develop that I feel have never been supported because I think my mother thought I was destined to be what I have described originally.  My mother happens to be an incredible artist and talented in many areas.  She is also somebody whom in her twenties turned down outstanding professional work so she could have us kids.  This is what she wanted I guess. 

I have always resisted this and have felt as though I need to kick extra hard to not end up that way.  (you only get so far in life trying to run away- I am realizing).  Anyway, I think that this has shown itself in my life in a number of ways.  One being that I have resisted anything that resembles this "role" that I feel I have not wanted to be stuck with (I am having big realizations here).

My whole point of this post though is to communicate to you that I actually genuinely see your point in a light that I never have before.  I think it is valid what you are saying and I even think it is honorable.  Thank you for bringing this up 

m1469

[Bob]

(beats chest)
lol

I'm joking here....
"I win!  I'm the winner!  I won!  m1469 said so!  I'm right!   Hahahaha!" 


I'm not sure which way is right or even whether having the choice is right or wrong. 

[dolcejen]

I'm not quite sure.  It would have something to do with both sides feeling good about something.  From the guy's perspective it would be the idea that he helped a pretty girl and fulfilled his role and a man.

I'm just not sure the "traditional" roles are all bad.  I can see how being forced or stuck in the role would be though.

Thought I'd bump this interesting topic. If I understand it correctly Bob is talking about the traditional roles (which are becoming less and less traditional, IMO) of men and women and whether they're good or bad. From personal experience, I find the most fulfillment and joy in taking a more "traditional" feminine role in life. That is, there is great joy in being in the home, supporting the life that goes on there. I am currently living at home with my parents and five other brothers and sisters. I work at home, and thus am free to lend a helping hand to the basic homemaking work. I look forward to someday having my own home where I will be take the supporting in-the-home role.

Here's my take on the feminine/masculine roles:

Feminine: Follower, supporter, nuturer, lover of and creater of beauty, stabilizing force, someone who adds sweetness and gentleness to the lives of those around her.

Masculine: Protector, champion, fighter, leader, bread-winner, strength, physical prowess, and focused.

Today it seems that women are not fulfilling their role of wife and mother and thus leaving the second generation to ruin. Without supports a building cannnot stand. Without strong mothers and wives in the homes, a society cannot stand.

At the same time, men today seem to be on an average, not as a whole, to be more passive and scared to be leaders. They don't treat women with courtesy. (That is partly a problem brought about from women. For example, a man tries to open the door for a women or carry something for her and he gets a retort back, "I can do it myself".)

As a woman I much admire men who are strong leaders, confident and want to protect and fight for others. Men, would a more feminine woman be more attractive, worthy of admiration?

These are my beliefs. I think it would be interesting to hear other perspectives.

[Bob]

A female like this?

Protector, champion, fighter, leader, bread-winner, strength, physical prowess, and focused.


Yeah.... Kind of strange.

[ted]

Firstly I agree with Jeremy about this ridiculous "being a man" business. Where I live it is pathetic, and responsible for much death, injury and mental difficulty, especially in young men, who deserve a lot better than to have this ridiculous stereotype forced on them.

Secondly, I also agree with m1469 in that the "women can do anything" approach is healthy. The old female stereotypes are going in Western society and good riddance to them.

Thirdly, however, we have yet to see the converse freedom of choice for men fully accepted. I have to be careful here to refer only to my own country, as acceptance may well occur elsewhere. I'm as good an example as any of what I mean. I want to wind down now, reduce responsibility, work fewer days a week, worry less, have buckets of spare time for music, the garden. If I have fewer material things then so be it, I don't care.

It would amaze you the implicit antipathy to this change I have encountered from people, especially women (not my wife). There is, it seems, something vaguely but intensely reprehensible about a man being at home during the day and working at things such as gardening, maintenance, cooking and housework. Incidentally, I would have loved to be a househusband and bring up my son. Unfortunately my wife simply could not guarantee to earn enough at the time to make it practical.

"What are you going to do ?", they ask, with a tone of rebuke. What the hell do they think I'm going to do - vegetate ? I have dozens of activities lined up.

The role of passive nurturer has not yet become a socially acceptable choice for a man, and that is the final step toward gender equality which has to take place, or so it seems to me.

[steve jones]

I think as human beings, we are all driven to a greater extent my our bodies chemistry. Men will always be men, women will always be women. With this in mind, I do wonder about the set gender definitions we have to deal with today (and how rapidly they seem to change).

Its my opinion that todays male is highly confused about how best to express his mascilinity, hence the ape like behaviour you describe. Women on the other hand given much more freedom in this respect (imo).

But with maturity, most blokes will figure themselves out. I really dont think that behaving in a stereotypical 'blokey' manner is a sign of secure, mature man. Quite the opposite infact!