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Topic: First Piano Concerto  (Read 5278 times)

Offline joaosousa

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First Piano Concerto
on: May 08, 2015, 12:37:16 PM
Hey,

I know this is an old topic but I would like to know the best piano concertos for beginners… I'm currently playing Shostakovich 3 Fantastic Dances (the 1 and 2 are easy), Beethoven Sonata Op.  10 No.  2, some Bach 3 part inventions and some Czerny Etudes. Thank you ;)
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Offline visitor

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #1 on: May 08, 2015, 01:14:37 PM
generally speaking, concerto is not for 'beginners', as there are many factors to consider, ie sense of ensemble, how proficient are you at playing w/ others, ie do you accompany singers and instrumentalists? have you played any chamber works? 

you mention a sonata, lots of experience w/ this form and playing them as a whole, i all movements back to back, is essential to grasp the structure, pacing, and make performance decisions based on understanding of theme, development, recap, codas/codettas, etc.

then there is and endurance aspect, how much experience has you attained at working pieces lasting more than say 20 minutes?

beyond the above, or if not there yet, you will be limited to working 'tutorial' type works,ie concertos written specifically for students in lower grades of instructional series, and these are typcially only avail for two pianos, so i would also look at doing works for duet, and piano duo.

if you are looking at a standard, and have a reasonable amount of natural talent, solid instructional resource/good teacher, and are willing to work at it, then i recc what happens to be my most favorite concerto of all time

Kabalevksy 3
prob the most definitive and excellent perf/recording of it here
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Offline j_menz

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #2 on: May 08, 2015, 01:29:38 PM
The best concerto for beginners really isn't a concerto. Try a sonata (for another instrument and piano) or a trio.  That way you actually get to practice with the ensemble partner, there's less to listen to, more flexibility and, should worse come to worst - fewer people to beat you up.
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Offline visitor

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #3 on: May 08, 2015, 02:14:10 PM
Quote from: j_menz on May 08, 2015, 01:29:38 PM
The best concerto for beginners really isn't a concerto. Try a sonata (for another instrument and piano) or a trio.  That way you actually get to practice with the ensemble partner, there's less to listen to, more flexibility and, should worse come to worst - fewer people to beat you up.
yep. what he said.  8)
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Offline joaosousa

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #4 on: May 08, 2015, 03:07:15 PM
Quote from: visitor on May 08, 2015, 01:14:37 PM
generally speaking, concerto is not for 'beginners', as there are many factors to consider, ie sense of ensemble, how proficient are you at playing w/ others, ie do you accompany singers and instrumentalists? have you played any chamber works? 

you mention a sonata, lots of experience w/ this form and playing them as a whole, i all movements back to back, is essential to grasp the structure, pacing, and make performance decisions based on understanding of theme, development, recap, codas/codettas, etc.

then there is and endurance aspect, how much experience has you attained at working pieces lasting more than say 20 minutes?

beyond the above, or if not there yet, you will be limited to working 'tutorial' type works,ie concertos written specifically for students in lower grades of instructional series, and these are typcially only avail for two pianos, so i would also look at doing works for duet, and piano duo.

if you are looking at a standard, and have a reasonable amount of natural talent, solid instructional resource/good teacher, and are willing to work at it, then i recc what happens to be my most favorite concerto of all time

Kabalevksy 3
prob the most definitive and excellent perf/recording of it here


I meant a beginner in the concerto form
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Offline alkan2010

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #5 on: June 05, 2015, 08:03:23 PM
Margola's kinderkonzert, perhaps. It was specifically written for competent amateurs not used to concerto stage
[/youtube]

Some early classic (pre-Mozart, dawn of the fortepiano) Concertos should work: even Haydn's (and his contemporaries Concertos are a lot easier than Mozart's and CPE Bach's (and easier than Haydn's own keyboard solo music!). Hummel Concertino in G, being transcribed from the Mandolin original, is not an immense tour de force like its brothers op.85/89  :)

But I have to agree that every Concerto is not suitable to a complete beginner  ;D
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Currently on:
Bach - WTK Book 1 n. 5-6
Beethoven - Sonate Pathétique
Rachmaninov - Polichinelle op. 3
Studies from Clementi and Moscheles
Telemann - Fantasias 1-2 in D
Haydn - b minor Sonata

Offline kawai_cs

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #6 on: June 05, 2015, 08:51:11 PM
They are asking here for a concerto to play for a person who has not played a concerto yet. 
A person who is playing Bach 3 part inventions, a Beethoven sonata and some Czerny (I suppose op 740) is not a beginner!
 People, you are literate and yet you do not understand what you are reading? Or maybe it is about a different aspect. Like some people who have never gone to music school nor taken any lessons and learned piano by themselves just tackle Beethoven's moonlight sonata, Chopin's pieces or random piano concertos just like that - because they have 10 fingers. And then there is this misunderstanding that arises between decent renditions of such works by competent players and those by those REAL beginners.

Here are some concertos as in the syllabus of one of the music schools. I found that syllabus online and am using it too for the choice of my repertoire.

Grade 6-7
J.S. Bach: Concerto f (I mov)
G.F. Haendel: Concertos: F, g
J. Haydn: Concertos: G, D
J. Haydn: Concertino F
W.A. Mozart: Concertos: F KV 413, A KV 414, C KV 415 W.A. Mozart: Concerto E flat KV 449
Kabalewski: Concerto op. 50
J. Krenz: Concertino
F. Lessel: Concerto C
W.A. Mozart: Concerto: B KV 238, Es KV 271, B KV 450
W.A. Mozart: Concerto  D KV 382
W.A. Mozart: Concerto  A KV 386
J.F. Rameau: Concertos: c  and d
K.M. Weber: Concerto C

Grade 7-8
J.S. Bach: Concerto A
L. van Beethoven: Concertos: C, B
J.N. Hummel: Concerto a
J. Krenz: Concertino
F. Lessel: Concerto C
A. Malawski: Toccata and fugae
F. Mendelssohn: Concertos: d, g
F. Mendelssohn: Capriccio brillante h op. 22
W.A. Mozart: Concertos: G KV 453, B KV 456, F KV 459, A KV 488
61
D. Szostakowicz: Concerto F op. 102

Grade 8
C. Saint - Saëns: Concerto F
R. Schumann: Konzertstück G op. 92
D. Szostakowicz: Concerto F op. 102
C.M. Weber: Konzertstück f
E. Grieg: Concerto a

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Chopin, 10-8 | Chopin, 25-12 | Haydn, HOB XVI:20

Offline alkan2010

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #7 on: June 05, 2015, 09:35:45 PM
He himself, most humbly, declared himself "a beginner", surely referring -as all we do- to an absolute beginner in the Concerto genre  :D
BTW, from where are that concerto listings? They seem optimistic to me: Weber and Lessel C Major are very long and demanding works, exploiting (especially Weber) proto-romantic pianism at its fullest; same here for Hummel-85, that is regarded as one of the most difficult works of the Concerto genre
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Currently on:
Bach - WTK Book 1 n. 5-6
Beethoven - Sonate Pathétique
Rachmaninov - Polichinelle op. 3
Studies from Clementi and Moscheles
Telemann - Fantasias 1-2 in D
Haydn - b minor Sonata

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #8 on: June 05, 2015, 09:43:20 PM
A very strange list. The Mendelssohn Capriccio Brillant was well above grade 7/8 when i played it and the Weber Koncertstuck must be about grade 852.

Thal
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Offline kawai_cs

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #9 on: June 05, 2015, 09:53:07 PM
I know, all those listings, gradings have always some "peculiarities". That this seems strange may however come not from the listing itself because it just says in which year of music education what concertos may be played. I applied the grade estimates myself using the scale 1-10 (like on piano syllabus.com) When I think about it maybe I applied wrong estimates ::)
The concertos are listed as appropriate to be played in 10th, 11th and 12th grade of music school.


I do not know if you guys speak some Polish  ;) I found the list here:
https://www.zsmwlo.edu.pl/download/1349336798Fortepian%20II%20program.pdf
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Chopin, 10-8 | Chopin, 25-12 | Haydn, HOB XVI:20

Offline alkan2010

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #10 on: June 05, 2015, 10:09:01 PM
Polish is not my cup of tea  ::) perhaps the grading is different from the classic Grade 8 (who, if I'm not mistaken, currently offers piece like Brahms op. 79/2 or first mov. of Grieg's Sonata, who are miles under the Egyptian or Grieg's Concerto in terms of pure technique and stamina).
In Italy concert repertoire is usually tackled in preparation to the diploma: Margola's Kinderkonzert and Coronation Concerto were frequently used.

A note: Though not incredibly easy, Mozart's famed Concerti 'A Quattro' could serve very well in a chamber preparation of a concertante work before taking the full orchestra challenge.
 
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Currently on:
Bach - WTK Book 1 n. 5-6
Beethoven - Sonate Pathétique
Rachmaninov - Polichinelle op. 3
Studies from Clementi and Moscheles
Telemann - Fantasias 1-2 in D
Haydn - b minor Sonata

Offline joaosousa

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #11 on: June 06, 2015, 08:34:57 AM
Quote from: alkan2010 on June 05, 2015, 08:03:23 PM
Margola's kinderkonzert, perhaps. It was specifically written for competent amateurs not used to concerto stage
[/youtube]

Some early classic (pre-Mozart, dawn of the fortepiano) Concertos should work: even Haydn's (and his contemporaries Concertos are a lot easier than Mozart's and CPE Bach's (and easier than Haydn's own keyboard solo music!). Hummel Concertino in G, being transcribed from the Mandolin original, is not an immense tour de force like its brothers op.85/89  :)

But I have to agree that every Concerto is not suitable to a complete beginner  ;D

Thank you !
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Offline joaosousa

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #12 on: June 06, 2015, 08:39:10 AM
Quote from: kawai_cs on June 05, 2015, 08:51:11 PM
They are asking here for a concerto to play for a person who has not played a concerto yet. 
A person who is playing Bach 3 part inventions, a Beethoven sonata and some Czerny (I suppose op 740) is not a beginner!
 People, you are literate and yet you do not understand what you are reading? Or maybe it is about a different aspect. Like some people who have never gone to music school nor taken any lessons and learned piano by themselves just tackle Beethoven's moonlight sonata, Chopin's pieces or random piano concertos just like that - because they have 10 fingers. And then there is this misunderstanding that arises between decent renditions of such works by competent players and those by those REAL beginners.

Here are some concertos as in the syllabus of one of the music schools. I found that syllabus online and am using it too for the choice of my repertoire.

Grade 6-7
J.S. Bach: Concerto f (I mov)
G.F. Haendel: Concertos: F, g
J. Haydn: Concertos: G, D
J. Haydn: Concertino F
W.A. Mozart: Concertos: F KV 413, A KV 414, C KV 415 W.A. Mozart: Concerto E flat KV 449
Kabalewski: Concerto op. 50
J. Krenz: Concertino
F. Lessel: Concerto C
W.A. Mozart: Concerto: B KV 238, Es KV 271, B KV 450
W.A. Mozart: Concerto  D KV 382
W.A. Mozart: Concerto  A KV 386
J.F. Rameau: Concertos: c  and d
K.M. Weber: Concerto C

Grade 7-8
J.S. Bach: Concerto A
L. van Beethoven: Concertos: C, B
J.N. Hummel: Concerto a
J. Krenz: Concertino
F. Lessel: Concerto C
A. Malawski: Toccata and fugae
F. Mendelssohn: Concertos: d, g
F. Mendelssohn: Capriccio brillante h op. 22
W.A. Mozart: Concertos: G KV 453, B KV 456, F KV 459, A KV 488
61
D. Szostakowicz: Concerto F op. 102

Grade 8
C. Saint - Saëns: Concerto F
R. Schumann: Konzertstück G op. 92
D. Szostakowicz: Concerto F op. 102
C.M. Weber: Konzertstück f
E. Grieg: Concerto a



Wow! You said it all! Totally agree with you! ;) really appreciate your help!
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Offline joaosousa

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #13 on: June 06, 2015, 11:54:01 AM
Just to give you an idea of my skills, along with the concerto or sonata I will start Bach's WTC, learn a Rachmaninoff prelude or etude, learn some more Czerny Op. 740 and learn a new piece (maybe Chopin Nocturne Op.  9 No. 3, Debussy's Ballade or Mendelssohn Rondo Capricioso, but I'm not sure). I will put extra effort in this pieces because I've choosen to be a pianist and piano is now my main discipline.
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Offline rubinsteinmad

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #14 on: June 06, 2015, 06:14:23 PM
Quote from: joaosousa on June 06, 2015, 11:54:01 AM
Just to give you an idea of my skills, along with the concerto or sonata I will start Bach's WTC, learn a Rachmaninoff prelude or etude, learn some more Czerny Op. 740 and learn a new piece (maybe Chopin Nocturne Op.  9 No. 3, Debussy's Ballade or Mendelssohn Rondo Capricioso, but I'm not sure). I will put extra effort in this pieces because I've choosen to be a pianist and piano is now my main discipline.

Maybe you should try Kasschau's Concertino. But that probably is too easy for a student like you? But the 2nd movement is really beautiful.
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Offline joaosousa

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #15 on: June 06, 2015, 07:08:31 PM
Quote from: rubinsteinmad on June 06, 2015, 06:14:23 PM
Maybe you should try Kasschau's Concertino. But that probably is too easy for a student like you? But the 2nd movement is really beautiful.

I'm not that great but i'm afraid it is.. Thank you for the suggestion tho. ;)
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Offline michael_sayers

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #16 on: June 06, 2015, 08:43:56 PM
Robert Schumann's piano concerto.


Mvh,
Michael
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Offline pianoman1349

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #17 on: June 08, 2015, 01:06:50 AM
Personally, I like the Grieg and Mendelssohn as first concertos, as they are not that difficult (solo wise and ensemble wise).  I also think the Ravel G major concerto would be a good choice for you.  All of these concertos are well within your current abilities.

Most students in learn concertos in this order:

1. Haydn D major, or some other Mozart (usually 414, 466, 467, 488 or 595) --- Mainly for people younger than 10 years.
2. Grieg, Mendelssohn, Ravel or Prokofiev 3rd
3. Totentanz, Liszt 1, Rach 2 or Tchaikovsky 1
4. Chopin 1/2, Brahms 1, Rach 3, Beethoven 4 or 5

Occasionally Beethoven 1,2,3 are taught as a 1st concerto.  Shostakovich 2 is also taught as a first concerto.


The Paganini Rhapsody is being seen more frequently played by people who have just finished their second concerto

*** Please note that this concerto list is not my own, but a compilation of the concertos seen in multiple music festivals over several years in my city. 
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #18 on: June 08, 2015, 05:47:12 AM
Quote from: michael_sayers on June 06, 2015, 08:43:56 PM
Robert Schumann's piano concerto.

A joke, surely.

Thal
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Offline pianoman1349

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #19 on: June 08, 2015, 06:05:27 AM
To be totally honest, though I am not a personal fan of the Schumann Concerto, it actually isn't that bad of a choice for a first concerto...
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Offline joaosousa

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #20 on: June 08, 2015, 07:49:27 AM
Thank you all
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Offline yogibear07

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #21 on: June 14, 2015, 09:40:59 PM
From your description,it sounds like we have similar abilities and repertoire choices.I have had the privilege of performing in the California Concerto Weekend for Amateur pianists 4 times now and this is my concerto " history" I also played with SQ as part of Piano Texas. Since 2002 here's what I've done:
Mozart Concerto #12 2nd movement
"3rd movement
1st movement
Chopin Piano Concerto #1,2nd movement 💕
Grieg a minor 2#nd movement
Beethoven #3, 3 rd movement
Mozart #19 1st movement
As you can see, I've worked my way up....
I will say learning a 1 st movement takes away your ability to learn other pieces...at least at my level and talent...
I wouldn't consider 1st movements of Grieg or Chopin,for me anyway- good luck!
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Offline visitor

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #22 on: June 15, 2015, 02:33:30 PM
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Offline visitor

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #23 on: June 15, 2015, 02:34:08 PM
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Offline michael_sayers

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #24 on: June 15, 2015, 04:44:54 PM
Quote from: thalbergmad on June 08, 2015, 05:47:12 AM
A joke, surely.

Thal

Hi Thal,

If you can identify any flaws within the composition then please post them here.  Anyone can say that anything is a "joke" but this doesn't give much information for a musician to work with.


Mvh,
Michael
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Offline joaosousa

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #25 on: June 15, 2015, 07:28:10 PM
Thank you all! Really apreciate your help. I agree with you Michael.
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Offline chopinawesome

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #26 on: January 18, 2016, 11:59:26 PM
The first one I played from the 27th Concerto by Mozart.
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Beethoven Op 2/2
Chopin Op 20, maybe op 47/38
Debussy Etude 7
Grieg Op 16
Want to do:
Chopin Concerti 1 and 2
Beethoven Waldstein
Ravel Miroirs

Offline chopinlover01

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Re: First Piano Concerto
Reply #27 on: January 20, 2016, 02:42:43 AM
Quote from: visitor on June 15, 2015, 02:34:08 PM

Oh, I remember playing that back in the day. Fun stuff, Rollin.
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