so all you have to do is work hard enough, and you can be like Mozart?

[michael_sayers]

Hi Everyone,

That seems to be as much the conclusion of this article.  I don't agree with it.  What do you think about it?

https://www.businessinsider.com/was-mozart-a-prodigy--or-just-a-hard-worker-2013-6


Mvh,
Michael

[j_menz]

so all you have to do is work hard enough, and you can be like Mozart?

Dead? I suppose that's true enough.

[lmpianist]

Well, sure, if all you want to focus on is his ability to play at the age of three and forget the fact that he was also a composer (you'd never know that reading this article).  If you were to list the major accomplishments of Mozart, anything that happened at the age of three would probably not be on the list.  There are plenty of 3-4 yo performing monkeys even today, so in that sense the article's premise is correct I think.  Does that make them prodigies?  Maybe.  Check back in a few years to see if they can play musically as well as technically.

[michael_sayers]

Well, sure, if all you want to focus on is his ability to play at the age of three and forget the fact that he was also a composer (you'd never know that reading this article).  If you were to list the major accomplishments of Mozart, anything that happened at the age of three would probably not be on the list.  There are plenty of 3-4 yo performing monkeys even today, so in that sense the article's premise is correct I think.  Does that make them prodigies?  Maybe.  Check back in a few years to see if they can play musically as well as technically.

Hi Impianist,

A real prodigy is someone like this:

MVh,
Michael

[lmpianist]

agreed, that was pretty impressive.

[Bob]

I'll go with history over Eric Barker and Business Insider.

Prodigy?  Yes.  Under 10 playing concerti?  Sure, I'll go with prodigy.  Even if it's mechanical, that still counts.  I read somewhere his age was listed wrong to make it more impressive.  Either way, sure. 

Father's a music teacher?  Makes sense.  Probably good training and good musical genes.  Nannerl was musical too.  Runs in the family, makes sense.

Lot of work?  Yes, of course.

Genius?  I'd go with yes.  Sounds like he developed early.  Later on?  Yes.  Changing a genre of music, writing that much that's accepted and still around hundreds of years later.  Sounds like genius to me.

Can we do it?  No, not everyone.  Why?  Nature and nurture.  Not everyone's wired up like that.  Not everyone will have a musical environment like that and take advantage of it.  Are there/were there other Mozart's out there?  Probably.  Maybe they went into other fields/weren't exposed to music early on.

Is hard work good enough?  No.  You can work hard, but work stupid.  You can work hard, but never do anything new or groundbreaking. 

Does it work without hard work?  Probably not, not long-term.  From what I've seen some people can have an easier time at first, but if they develop a work ethic, it doesn't matter so much later on.  And the people who make big changes are working very hard for a long time.  It's not a fluke and it's not really overnight. 

Which leads to a nice story about working hard for everyone else, regardless of what's actually true.  Maybe you can be like Mozart if you work hard.  Maybe.  Doubtful though, but the work ethic is still required.  A lot of other inventors, etc. can be plugged in with the same story -- They worked very hard.   ...So if you want to achieve things, shouldn't you work hard too?    That sounds like the spin at the end of the article too -- Work hard.  Be awesome... or not, because it won't work for everyone.


This sounds like a fluff article.  You get a prodigy by being smart/good genes, musical family, teaching, lots of hard work... Mozart sounds like a prodigy to me. 



And who is Eric Barker?  A writer for Wired magazine.  Someone who wants you read his article too.
https://www.businessinsider.com/author/eric-barker

I'd put this article a step above an ad.  It still looks interesting with the study.  Eric Barker's other articles though...?  5 tips for this, 5 secrets of that, the secret to xyz...?  Common topic/but what you really didn't know-type of article.  Or trying to be that.


Looks like he read a book and jotted out a five minute article about it.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307387305/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0307387305&linkCode=as2&tag=spacforrent-20
The Genius in All of Us: New Insights into Genetics, Talent, and IQ Paperback  – March 8, 2011
by David Shenk

That's what he's writing about.  That's what's looking more interesting to me. 



This doesn't look that current though.  The book's from 2010/2011.  Article is from 2013.  The book sounds vaguely familiar... I think it's come up on here (or somewhere) before.

[mjames]

What's so special about being child monkey? Nothing about Mozart's childhood sounds glamorous. Raised by an annoying, and controlling father. I'd rather have a dad like Chopin: "No i will not exploit my kid's talent." Prodigal talent exists. Just look at Mendelssohn's first quartet, or his Midsummer night overture. Look at Chopin's teenage compositions. That's a result of hard-work and talent. Sure you could work your up to play tough pieces, but composition is a different thing. You either have it, or you don't.

And lol no, the article is so wrong. There is a thing called innate/natural talent. Of course, it means nothing if you don't work hard, but hard work alone won't guarantee that you'll write something as great as Sibelius' 7th Symphony or Mozart's magic flute. There are just somethings you can't overcome. That is the harsh truth of reality. Sounds like the writer of the article is trying hard to convince himself/herself rather than convince others: that he has the capability, it's jsut that he was lazy. Lol, what a loser.

[deandeblock]

Hi Impianist,

A real prodigy is someone like this:

MVh,
Michael

I just googled that kid, what a tragic story!

[Bob]

If a kid is a monkey young, there's a chance they'll mature in their teens or 20s... and then have all that time left over after that.


Interesting angle on the, "I'm just lazy, but I could have been a genius if I worked harder," idea.  I haven't heard of that before, but there's probably something to it.


The part is that there will be a lot of people who try and fail.  Hard work, dedication, and all that.  Great, but something doesn't work out.


So we've got Mozart as a hard work motivator -- If you're doing good, you better work harder.   Geniuses still have to work very, very hard, so you better work hard too.

And then we've got who... Brahms?  There's another composer... They started composing late in life.  So then we've got the angle that you can start doing something late in life and be really successful at it. 

Same results for both though -- Maybe, but there will be a lot who fail despite having worked really hard at it.

[mjames]

And then we've got who... Brahms?  There's another composer... They started composing late in life.  So then we've got the angle that you can start doing something late in life and be really successful at it.  

Brahm's a pretty bad example. He was a composer ever since he was a kid, and he was talented too. The big difference between him and Mozart was their confidence. He was extremely insecure and self-conscious about his own talent and music. Which is partly the reason why it took him 20 years to finish his first symphony. That and he also destroyed pretty much all of his compositions from his youth.

A good example would be Chausson. I'm pretty sure he was introduced to music pretty lat in his life, and he only begun formal lessons during his late 20s. Well I guess this might be a bad example too because Chausson was considered to be intelligent, and artistically versatile(could write literature, paint/draw, and compose).

But yeah saying "If I had just worked harder I would be as great as him" is a lot more reassuring than "I sck, I have no diligence, will, aspirations, and talent."

[cwjalex]

maybe not quite the level of mozart but the general idea i agree a million percent.  i have below average natural ability but through tens of thousands of hours of practice in various activities i can fool people into thinking i have talent when i start a new one.