An achievable virtuoso piece - any suggestions

[psmith_1959]

I have reached a reasonably proficient standard on the piano - to give you an idea, I can play all of the three Op 10 Beethoven sonatas, Khachaturian Toccata, the two Debussy Arabesques, Schoenberg 5 Kleine Klavierstucke - that sort of thing. However, I have always struggled with truly virtuoso music such as pretty much anything by Liszt, and all but the easiest Chopin stuff. It's quite a few years since I seriously tried to play anything virtuosic. Over ten years ago I had a good go at Chopin's Polonaise-Fantasie in A flat - a piece I love - but it all ended in tears, literally, and I gave up, leaving me feeling a depressed failure.
At the risk of a repetition of that debacle, I would like to try again to get my fingers around something properly virtuosic.
What would people recommend as a piece that might fit the bill? I'm not scared of hard work and putting the hours in, but I'd like to attempt to play a piece that is achievable. Maybe someone can suggest some exercises that can help me get up to that level of playing.
 

[visitor]

really not as bad as it sounds, lots of arpegios and a few other flashy techniques. as for exercises, practicing arpegios, all inversions at 4 8av in 16th notes at a decent allegro clips helps (ie all major minor, dim 7th, dominant 7th).

still, fun pieces, showy and w/ the right crowd, a real pleaser

[visitor]

another that sounds harder than it actually is. also it's a lot of fun,

[psmith_1959]

Thank you for these suggestions - they seem a good start. It would be good to get some more ideas as well though

[jknott]

What about The Lark - Balakirev's arrangement of a song by Glinka? Some cadenza-like swoops but overall fits well under the hand so not too difficult.

[chopinlover01]

I know you mentioned a technical aversion to Liszt, but the third Liebestraum (and the others probably, too) wouldn't be too difficult for you. The trick with his cadenzas in this piece (and I believe in general anyways) are to find the harmonic structure, which (if you wish) I can help you with over Skype or something like that. Paul Barton also has a great video on it

[liszt1022]

Gottschalk's Tournament Galop has lots of flash for (relatively) little effort.

[visitor]

The Percy Grainger abridged concert solos on the concerto movements from Tchaikovsky Schumann Grieg and Rachmaninov  are great .  Thy are not dumbed down or easy versions but they are manageable if you have the right foundations since they are pretty short and Percy could write for piano.  He also put down wha sound goo and translates well to the solo piano lot vs awkward orxhestra reduction under a melody
Sergei's groovy finale to no 2  . Btw i have this original score i got on the cheap at a used book shop bargain bin and it's not that bad i learn bits of It here and there every so often.  Not too bad , it's hard but not insane

This is probably the 2nd most successful of the lot ( followed by Tchaikovsky then Grieg...I hate to admit it but the Schumann is the best iteration of the three even though it has the most inferior source material)

[visitor]

And here is Peety's no 1
Prob the most approachable technically vs Sergei 2 but this one Is almost too short but still ha pretty moments and worth learning

[vansh]

Well as much as some of the forumites may dislike this suggestion   you could consider Chopin's famous Fantaisie-Impromptu. It's somewhat a step down from the Polonaise-Fantaisie, but seems like a step up (or about the same level) as the other pieces you mentioned, so it's probably close to what you've played. It might not be difficult enough to be considered a virtuoso piece but it still has its share of technical challenges, but not inaccessible.

The reason why some of the forumites may dislike this suggestion is that within pianist circles it tends to be overplayed, so you'll get some eyerolls from judges if you use Fantaisie-Impromptu in a piano competition (they hear it all the time). Additionally, being overplayed also means that it's quite often not played well.

However, I think one of the reasons why a piece is popular is precisely because it sounds good for its difficulty; for a given amount of technical ability, the piece is more pleasing to most players than many other pieces. So you get more bang for your buck, so to speak. And outside of pianist circles, it will almost certainly be "new" since relatively few people are exposed to classical music these days, so you won't have to worry about eyerolls. This is one of the few piano pieces that I still play from my high school days, even though I've been playing it for (literally) half my life now, and I keep finding that there's stuff that I could work on to improve this piece even though I've learned it a long time ago; it never feels boring.

There's a number of good renditions of this piece on Youtube, I'll just post Yundi Li's recording:

and Rubinstein's more rubato recording:

[psmith_1959]

Thanks for all the awesome suggestions! Vansh - I completely understand where you're coming from and why you would recommend Chopin Fantasie Impromptu. It doesn't matter at all to me that it might be considered a hackneyed choice in the context of a piano competition because my piano competition days are long gone! In fact, Fantasie-Impromptu was one of the pieces I tried to play in the past, but it was years ago (I'm talking more than 20 years ago here!) so, as I like it and have the music in my cupboard already, I am going to give it another try. And maybe have another crack at Polonaise Fantasie after that.
As I said in my original post, I'd simply like to see if I can get my playing up to the next level. The Op 10 Beethoven sonatas aren't exactly "easy peasy" of course, but I'd love to have the odd "wow factor" piece in my repertoire.
Anyway, I'll have a go and report back later! Thanks again.

[stillnimble]

Have you tried the Chopin Ballade No.1 in G Sharp Minor? There are a lot of challenges in this piece.
I spent two and a half years working on it but was not satisfied with my progress. I consulted  a teacher and I now feel I am making some progress with it.

[diomedes]

Polonaise-Fantasie in A flat - a piece I love - but it all ended in tears, literally, and I gave up, leaving me feeling a depressed failure.

That's a big piece, be kinder to yourself. Getting there takes time, should be possible if you keep at it.

I'm learning Liszt's sospiro again for a performance, just so the audience gets the false impression that i'm some piano god. The virtuosity presented against the ease and sheer pianistic writing is very unequal. The cadenzas are the only concern.

Anyway, i'd be surprised if you had trouble with it, give it a serious go.

[visitor]

true to diomedes note that the writing needs to be sound, ie generally a composer who's main instrument is piano and writes specifically for  it (and you can usually tell something was composed at the keyboard or improvised on the piano then notated vs the alternative ie symphonic type writing of Brahms etc which can be awkward).

So in the vein of "Liszt" feeling good in the hands, do not discount some of the non op 40 Kapustin pieces, which sound virtuosic (many are that but some are less problematic than one would expect).

This op 36 i believe fits that bill. there are lots of videos of it, but i like this performance, and i love birds, so a jazzer parrot is tops in my book for the post 

[michael_sayers]

I have reached a reasonably proficient standard on the piano - to give you an idea, I can play all of the three Op 10 Beethoven sonatas, Khachaturian Toccata, the two Debussy Arabesques, Schoenberg 5 Kleine Klavierstucke - that sort of thing. However, I have always struggled with truly virtuoso music such as pretty much anything by Liszt, and all but the easiest Chopin stuff. It's quite a few years since I seriously tried to play anything virtuosic. Over ten years ago I had a good go at Chopin's Polonaise-Fantasie in A flat - a piece I love - but it all ended in tears, literally, and I gave up, leaving me feeling a depressed failure.
At the risk of a repetition of that debacle, I would like to try again to get my fingers around something properly virtuosic.
What would people recommend as a piece that might fit the bill? I'm not scared of hard work and putting the hours in, but I'd like to attempt to play a piece that is achievable. Maybe someone can suggest some exercises that can help me get up to that level of playing.

Hi psmith_1959,

How about Vår by Osakr Lindberg?  It is not as easy as it sounds.

For technical exercises there is the 12 volume set by Franz Liszt.  The question of which exercises to use depends on your strengths and weaknesses as a pianist.  I used these intensively during my teenage years and played quite well near the end of that time as a result.

https://imslp.org/wiki/Technische_Studien,_S.146_%28Liszt,_Franz%29

I hope this helps!


Mvh,
Michael

[psmith_1959]

That's a big piece, be kinder to yourself. Getting there takes time, should be possible if you keep at it.

I'm learning Liszt's sospiro again for a performance, just so the audience gets the false impression that i'm some piano god. The virtuosity presented against the ease and sheer pianistic writing is very unequal. The cadenzas are the only concern.

Anyway, i'd be surprised if you had trouble with it, give it a serious go.

Oh my goodness diomedes! I just had a look at the score for Sospiro and it looks incredibly scary! Is it really as manageable as you seem to suggest? I haven't taken it to the piano - just looked at it on the page and I'm not sure it would be within my grasp. Or is it one of those pieces that looks harder than it really is?
Anyway, I'm gravitating towards the Chopin Fantasie-Impromptu as suggested by Vansh. I know I would enjoy working at that one (even if it is a bit of a "lollipop" for some people). I'm away for a few days from tomorrow so will not have time to give it a go until the middle of next week. My usual way of working at a piece is to start by working on the fingering, and very slowly hands separately. Sometimes I write  the fingering in for every note, even in straightforward passages so that I make sure I always stick to the same fingers. I would guess this is a fairly standard traditional approach to learning something new, but I am open to any alternative suggestions people might have to make the process easier and/or more efficient! Wish me luck!

[28843253]

Hi Michael,

Where may I find the score for Lindberg's Vår? I am interested in learning the piece myself, it sounds quite wonderful.

 

[michael_sayers]

Hi Michael,

Where may I find the score for Lindberg's Vår? I am interested in learning the piece myself, it sounds quite wonderful.

Hi 28843253,

I'll be photocopying Oskar Lindberg's out-of-örint piano music, most likely this year.  The music schools here should have old editions of it, including Vår.  I just need to put a date on the calendar for going out and doing this.  When I know some specifics about when this will happen, I'll send you a p.m.  If much time passes you can always send me a p.m. and ask what is going on.

The Fyra preludier are in print . . . https://www.gehrmans.se/en/shop/instruments-ensemble/fyra-preludier-for-piano-no-1-ec-220 . . . which are the same as here:

For some reason one of the YouTube videos lists the first one as being in D Minor (which it isn't), et c., but looking at the gehrmans.se pdf preview one can see that this is the same set of preludes which Lars Roos recorded as with the YouTube links.


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

I should mention that the last time I was there, Gehrmans required registration and a minimum 100 SEK to order.  The Fyra preludier is only 54 SEK.


Mvh,
Michael

[j_menz]

I'll be photocopying Oskar Lindberg's out-of-örint piano music, most likely this year.  ....  I just need to put a date on the calendar for going out and doing this. 

April 11th, 2025?

It's when it goes out of copyright, and when it would be legal for you to do so.

[michael_sayers]

April 11th, 2025?

It's when it goes out of copyright, and when it would be legal for you to do so.

Hi j_menz,

There will be nothing illegal involved with me doing this.  I either already have, or will in advance obtain, permission from the rights owner of the various out-of-print Oskar Lindberg piano compositions to photocopy these at a library here in Sweden.


Mvh,
Michael

[visitor]

Hi j_menz,

There will be nothing illegal involved with me doing this.  I either already have, or will in advance obtain, permission from the rights owner of the various out-of-print Oskar Lindberg piano compositions to photocopy these at a library here in Sweden.


Mvh,
Michael

isn't that usually done for personal use only (ie just yourself, once usually academic in nature only) under creative commons? I doubt it would also grant you ability to disseminate/distribute, but if so, would be keenly interested in how you swung that, as I would like to invoke that when my requests get rejected by libraries , or so I can know how to proceed if someone requests something I have.

[j_menz]

isn't that usually done for personal use only (ie just yourself, once usually academic in nature only)

That's certainly my experience. One might be able to get permission for non commercial public performance, one would usually (but not always) have to pay for commercial performance rights and distribution would be another ballpark entirely.

I would also add that the availability of these scores is somewhat dependent on people being honest in their dealings - ie, not distributing copies where they have not got permission.  Currently, most copyright holders are generally pretty OK with giving permission, but I would not like to see abuses of trust lead to a situation where that permission was routinely withheld.

[michael_sayers]

isn't that usually done for personal use only (ie just yourself, once usually academic in nature only) under creative commons? I doubt it would also grant you ability to disseminate/distribute, but if so, would be keenly interested in how you swung that, as I would like to invoke that when my requests get rejected by libraries , or so I can know how to proceed if someone requests something I have.

Hi visitor,

We can discuss this with private messages.

J_menz's statement a few posts back that I would be breaking the law to photocopy this music on any day before April 11, 2025 - as though j_menz is the rights owner and it is his decision to make re. if I may photocopy it or not - seems like it may have been a bit trolling, though I am not really sure.  Either way, j_menz doesn't own the rights to the music, so what is done with it is not for him to decide.

Though I was trying to be helpful and constructive, I no longer see why any conversation involving me on this subject should be j_menz's or anyone else's business here, given the atmosphere of negativity.


Mvh,
Michael

[j_menz]

I make no claims to an interest in the copyright to these works. I merely point out the legal position.

If you have permission to make the copies, then by all means do so (or if the copying falls within the law for some other reason).  If you do not, then I would suggest that public confession to lawbreaking is generally unwise.

[vansh]

My usual way of working at a piece is to start by working on the fingering, and very slowly hands separately. Sometimes I write  the fingering in for every note, even in straightforward passages so that I make sure I always stick to the same fingers. I would guess this is a fairly standard traditional approach to learning something new, but I am open to any alternative suggestions people might have to make the process easier and/or more efficient! Wish me luck!

I think the notes are actually fairly natural once you've worked on them a few times. The left hand may be somewhat more awkward because of the span of the arpeggios (depending on your version). For me, I make sure to keep my wrist moving left-right as I do those arpeggios (i.e. don't keep the hand in place, but be sure the hand is moving across the keyboard as you hit the different notes).

Probably the most difficult thing, at least when learning the piece, is getting used to the 4:3 polyrhythm. For that I'd recommend just learning the hands separately, and then making sure that the downbeats are aligned together. The notes do space themselves out fairly naturally when doing it this way, rather than actively thinking of the timing between the notes. And although the right hand (melody) notes should be pretty evenly spaced, I don't think it's as critical that left hand notes are evenly spaced, as long as they're still out-of-sync with the right hand (except at the downbeats) for texture -- I slowed down a number of widespread recordings of this piece and it was fairly obvious that the left hand wasn't actually evenly-timed triplets even for famous pianists.

The Percy Grainger abridged concert solos on the concerto movements from Tchaikovsky Schumann Grieg and Rachmaninov  are great .  Thy are not dumbed down or easy versions but they are manageable if you have the right foundations since they are pretty short and Percy could write for piano.  He also put down wha sound goo and translates well to the solo piano lot vs awkward orxhestra reduction under a melody

Do you happen to know if Grainger did a solo piano reduction for Rachmaninoff's 2nd Concerto 1st movement? I've found the 3rd movement online but not the 1st movement, the 1st movement sounds interesting to learn to play. (Or do people generally think the 3rd movement is better?)

[psmith_1959]

Vansh - many thanks for bringing us back on topic after that somewhat prickly exchange between michael_sayers and j_menz.

I'll be glad to try out your practice suggestions when I'm back at the piano keyboard next week, so thanks for taking the time to put those forward.

[j_menz]

Do you happen to know if Grainger did a solo piano reduction for Rachmaninoff's 2nd Concerto 1st movement?

There's no definitive list of Grainger's compositions, and any who have tried have thrown their hands up in despair (three continents, a multitude of publishers and appalling record keeping). As to the first movement, it's a possibility, I suppose, but doesn't appear to have either recording, (publicised) performance or  publication.

[visitor]

There's no definitive list of Grainger's compositions, and any who have tried have thrown their hands up in despair (three continents, a multitude of publishers and appalling record keeping). As to the first movement, it's a possibility, I suppose, but doesn't appear to have either recording, (publicised) performance or  publication.

.

But that's part of the adventure!

As to the 1st MGM I have some but don't recall who did them , but certain I do not have other Graingers only those little pastiches listed above

[sabtan]

Keen to explore any of the French composers?

Debussy has some really nice ones. Any of his Images are quite good. One of the more popular ones is Reflets dans l'eau, but the others are achievable too.

There's Faure, Ravel etc

[yadeehoo]

Any piece from Horowitz.

You'll poop bricks for a while but learn so much from each measures you won't regret. I mean, how good would It feel to be able to play Carmen Variations or Danse Macabre. That's kind of virtuosity you asked for, but that one is kind of you got what you payed for : Hard work & Immense sense of accomplishment

[chopinlover01]

Hi visitor,

seems like it may have been a bit trolling, though I am not really sure.  


Mvh,
Michael

You, calling someone else a troll (much less one of the more renown posters here). Ah, the irony..

[michael_sayers]

You, calling someone else a troll (much less one of the more renown posters here). Ah, the irony..

Hi chopinlover01,

I didn't cal j_menz a troll.  I just said that it may have been a bit trolling as he doesn't own the rights to the music so it isn't for him to decide if I or someone else has permission to photocopy it.  The rights owner decides if it is legal or not for a person to copy the music.

Only j_menz knows or can say if he was trolling or not - and I apologize for my observation if he was not trolling.


Mvh,
Michael

[visitor]

will depend on your definition of 'virtuoso piece', however my definition is broad, and includes/takes into account both lenth (ie pieces longer than 6 minutes usually fall into the 'harder'category) and interpretation difficulty (ie character of the work, difficulty to execute an effective performance of it etc)

This piece has it's difficulty from the many characteristics you have to bring across as it is a finale to a fairly large suite, it's a medley essentially so it takes themes from all the previous pieces, and weaves them, so you are charged with seamlessly making it feel complete whole , while all the while bringing out unique character to each reprise.

at your level, should present a nice challenge, and it 'sounds big'.

I personally have loved it since i got the score a long time ago (the entire suite is jiggy actually).

Akira Yuyama, Confections - A Piano "Sweet", Finale/ Cake March  

[psmith_1959]

will depend on your definition of 'virtuoso piece', however my definition is broad, and includes/takes into account both lenth (ie pieces longer than 6 minutes usually fall into the 'harder'category) and interpretation difficulty (ie character of the work, difficulty to execute an effective performance of it etc)

Thanks visitor - I quite like that actually. I'm glad you have a broad definition of "virtuoso piece", because I do too! I think most of the pieces I mentioned in my original post are certainly longer than 6 mins (or at least approaching that). I think what I was really asking for were suggestions of pieces which sound "show offy" - you know, the kind of thing that makes an audience go "wow"! I'm not by nature a show-off kind of guy, but would love to have something like that in my repertoire without breaking myself! And preferably it has to be "quality" music (if you know what I mean) - not "show-offy" just for the sake of it, with no proper musical substance. That's why I am still gravitating towards the Chopin Fantasie-Impromptu, so I am definitely going to give that a try. I get back home tomorrow and one of the first things I'll do is spend time at the piano and pull the Chopin out of the cupboard and get cracking on it!

[j_menz]

You might like to have a look at the Schubert Impromptus as well. For example....