Easier 2-part counterpoint Renaissance pieces - exist?

[svpiano]

I hope I can decently clear formulate my problem on the first try (not being a Native English speaker) and hope someone can help me.
Please note that at first my questions might look like they are better suited for a compositional forum but it's not the case, at least my questions are not that much advanced that any experienced piano player would have hard time answering them.

I'm self-teaching myself a 16-th century counterpoint from a couple of respectable sources. Basic exercises are OK but I want to get a real hands-on experience in the authentic Renaissance style applied to a keyboard.
What I found along the way is that I have vague understanding of the applicability of the counterpoint techinique to a relatively easy authentic keyboard music in the late Renaissance 16-th cnt. style.

First of all let me set some restrictions to what I'm thinking about as the target of my reasearch.

I want to be able to find in scores and play and later to compose and play relatively easy late Renaissance modal counterpoint keyboard pieces.
What I'm thinking about in comparative terms is something like Bach's two-part inventions, that is a cantus firmus and a second part of counterpoint, no denser vertically than that, mixed note duration values.
In other words I'd like to use such a model as a vehicle for playing, analysing and creating relatively easy counterpoint pieces of the defined period.

What problem I encountered. Since I want to be as close as possible to the authentic style that I've tried to define I expected to find such authentic compositions in early keyboard music of that period.
The first choice source I obviously found was... you are right - Fitzwilliam Virginal book. OK, I neither have a virginal nor I have a clavichord but I thought I wouldn't have problems exactly in that area though some non-critical implementation issues might arise.

However when I went through the two volumes of Fitzwilliam I was at least surprised if not shocked: in two words I didn't expect to see such complexity and assumed virtuosity in keyboard scores of that period.
I hardly found a piece in the whole book that would be similar in the expected techinical level to the majority of less demanding keyboard pieces of Baroque period (dances, Bach short preludes and inventions, many of D.Scarlatti sonatas, etc.).

Besides, there is hardly a piece in the book in a clear mixed value two part counterpoint style that I see as my preferred model. Many pieces do look like counterpoint but the texture is mixed: there are some chord jabs here and there, in lower and upper parts.

Many of the pieces in Fitzwilliam are more like 3 or even 4-part choral-style music with complex figuration. Others are not but quite a lot of the pieces require holding long notes in inner or outer parts while playing faster notes in other parts.
Many pieces look like they are vocal reductions put together on two piano staves.
So there is nothing relatively easy and readily available in the Fitzwilliam that I could use for the purpose of my practical research.

I searched for other possible sources of the lighter Renaissance solo keyboard music and found none.

Maybe by now you can see the cause of my confusion. Not quite? Let me give you a simple example.

Suppose I would like to conduct a similar practical study, including playing, harmonic and stylistic analysis and composition of a short binary form of the Baroque period.
I would not need to go any further than hundreds of minuets available from major composers of the period.
They are not hard to play and are relatively short and are ready to be dissected and replicated by an average intelligent person.

Am I looking for something non-existent in the Renaissance period solo keyboard music?
Did that Renaissance solo keyboard style really appeared out of the blue in such dense and virtuosic textures that are found in the Fitzwilliam?
Were all amateurs in that period expected to play such complex solo keyboard pieces and were there no other easier pieces with simpler textures similar to what I'm interested in the context of my research?

[hardy_practice]

You are looking at the flower of English keyboard music!  Try this instead: https://home.planet.nl/~teuli049/JosqDuo0Collectie.pdf  or search for his keyboard intabulations (though I think that link may include them).

[eldergeek]

Many thanks, Hardy and svpiano!

I have had a similar experience of looking for this stuff and finding only the Virginal book (which was definitely not what I wanted or expected). This seems to be exactly what I was looking for about a year ago - and never managed to find.

Cheers!

[svpiano]

Yes, thank you very much Hardy! Perhaps I should look no further.
Your link has a very good collection of (almost) what I was looking for with some reservations.
These are not authentic keyboard scores but who cares if one can get either these still authentic 2-part Renaissance counterpoint pieces or otherwise what you call the flower of English keyboard music which is not for everyone's chops.

Anyway, what basic repertoire do you (or anyone else) think was available for early keyboard amateur players of the 16-th century? I suppose not everyone was ready for the flowers of John Bull and William Byrd?

I mean if we know that it makes the whole task easier: for instance the majority of 16-th cnt. amateurs could indeed play intabulations of some two-part chansons and other vocal pieces most of the time.
What else comes to mind?

Basically what was possibly available in that period as a solo instrumental music can be summarized in just a few common forms as I only recently found:
- Dance music (Pavan, Galliard, Alman, Basse Dance). These are unlikely to be in "clean" counterpoint and the Fitzwilliam shows they are not.
- Intabulations (as you correctly noticed) of the vocal reductions. Your link provied a good example of this texture and it's a clean counterpoint. Almost academic Which is good!
- Ground Bass variations. This is probably a good form to build up Renaissance chops having improvised music in mind based on diminution but that's not exactly counterpoint or... is it? Probably Ground Bass can be considered an ostinato "cantus firmus" in free terms but I don't think it's a good practice to make up extentions of the commonly accepted terms.
- Abstract instrumental works: Ricercar, Fantasia and Canzona (coming from 'Chanson') and those are a plenty in the Fitzwilliam book but they are beyond my modest playing abilities. The flowers - indeed they are!

You are looking at the flower of English keyboard music!  Try this instead: https://home.planet.nl/~teuli049/JosqDuo0Collectie.pdf  or search for his keyboard intabulations (though I think that link may include them).

[hardy_practice]

You really want a copy of Five Centuries of Keyboard Music.  The period you're interested is sparse but Gillespie covers it well.  £5 inc P&P in both UK or US https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=15951628278&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26tn%3Dfive+centuries+of+keyboard+music

[svpiano]

Thank you Hardy. I'll keep it on my wish list. The used ones start at just above GPB 2.
However I keep looking and find some interesting things on IMSLP. Not exactly what I requested but much more accessible than Fitzwilliam for a less experienced keyboardist like me.
I'll list one entry below in another reply but I'm sure many more can be found in the great IMSLP archive.

You really want a copy of Five Centuries of Keyboard Music.  The period you're interested is sparse but Gillespie covers it well.  £5 inc P&P in both UK or US https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=15951628278&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26tn%3Dfive+centuries+of+keyboard+music

[svpiano]

Eldergeek,

I found one more interesting collection of pieces on the IMSLP specifically for keyboard by a Spanish Renaissance composer called Antonio de Cabezón (1510-1566).
Here is his home page on IMSLP:
https://imslp.org/wiki/Keyboard_Music_(Cabez%C3%B3n,_Antonio_de)

You need this entry (fifth from the top in the list titled 'Keyboard music - Selections'):
https://imslp.nl/imglnks/usimg/b/b5/IMSLP41936-PMLP91161-Cabezon_-_Keyboard_Music.pdf

Some of the pieces look like they are less advanced compared to Fitzwilliam though I wouldn't call them a piece of cake for my modest level.

Many thanks, Hardy and svpiano!

I have had a similar experience of looking for this stuff and finding only the Virginal book (which was definitely not what I wanted or expected). This seems to be exactly what I was looking for about a year ago - and never managed to find.

Cheers!

[hardy_practice]

Here's Gillespie on Cabezon: Only recently has Cabezon's music won proper recognition.  He was a man dedicated to preserving the highest standards for musical composition.  There is a mild austerity present in his writings and always a seriousness behind each work.  The austerity, fortunately, is tempered with compassion and spiritual warmth, two important factors that contribute to the classic contours distinguishing every type of musical composition Cabezon created.

There's another 4 paragraphs on him.

[svpiano]

That's interesting. Another thing is that you don't see too often prominent Spanish composers although I should admit they rule in guitar music.
Wikipedia has an entry on him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_de_Cabez%C3%B3n

Here's Gillespie on Cabezon: Only recently has Cabezon's music won proper recognition.  He was a man dedicated to preserving the highest standards for musical composition.  There is a mild austerity present in his writings and always a seriousness behind each work.  The austerity, fortunately, is tempered with compassion and spiritual warmth, two important factors that contribute to the classic contours distinguishing every type of musical composition Cabezon created.

There's another 4 paragraphs on him.

[svpiano]

Hardy, you gave me a good hint on the vocal music in two parts.

Eldergeek: this might be of interest for you too.

IMSLP has a good collection of 2-part vocal music some of which is from Renaissance but it has to be examined for the contents: https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:For_2_voices

One collection I found interesting is 'Duos or Songs for Two Voices (1590)' by an English Renaissance composer Thomas Whythorne (1528–1595). Here it is:
https://imslp.org/wiki/Duos_or_Songs_for_2_Voices_(Whythorne,_Thomas)

[eldergeek]

Thanks again, svpiano.

I tried searching IMSLP for easy 2-part counterpoint for keyboard a year or so ago, but it is really hard to search for unless you already know the composers to look through.

One thing I did do, was to transcribe some old music by composers such as Luis Milan, da Milano and Molinaro, who wrote some nice pieces of easy counterpoint form - originally for guitar or lute (my musical background). Some of these worked OK on keyboard.

Many thanks for the other suggestions - I now think I have some good pieces to get on with for a while!

Best wishes.

[svpiano]

Great! Take care.

Thanks again, svpiano.

I tried searching IMSLP for easy 2-part counterpoint for keyboard a year or so ago, but it is really hard to search for unless you already know the composers to look through.

One thing I did do, was to transcribe some old music by composers such as Luis Milan, da Milano and Molinaro, who wrote some nice pieces of easy counterpoint form - originally for guitar or lute (my musical background). Some of these worked OK on keyboard.

Many thanks for the other suggestions - I now think I have some good pieces to get on with for a while!

Best wishes.

[hardy_practice]

On another note: I restarted species counterpoint some years ago.  I found I could learn to sight sing (in my head) the two lines within a few weeks of practice.  It was a real joy - I heartily recommend it.

Sight singing as in singing-from-a-sheet-you've-never-seen-before.