Can't Come up with a melody when composing?

[sumpianodude]

I sometimes compose for my own amusement. 
Sometimes it's fun but more often than not I find myself struggling to create a melody line to develop on
Anything I put down seems cliché."hey that's just a d major chord" I would say to myself, or "I think I've heard that somewhere before already"
Help? It's fun to expand on the idea once I get it but I never get it to star with?

[quantum]

Don't get hung up on complete originality.  If one looks hard enough, one can find parts of melodies in many other sources.  Certain permutations, such as those studied in species counterpoint are seen as favorable or unfavorable to melody writing.  Naturally those that are more favorable tend to occur often in real music.  Just write according to what you want to say, do not worry to much about replicating something that has already been done. 

If you are stuck with melody writing, take an existing melody are write a set of variations on it. 


To answer your poll, all of the above have been suggested from my composition teachers.

[michael_sayers]

I sometimes compose for my own amusement. 
Sometimes it's fun but more often than not I find myself struggling to create a melody line to develop on
Anything I put down seems cliché."hey that's just a d major chord" I would say to myself, or "I think I've heard that somewhere before already"
Help? It's fun to expand on the idea once I get it but I never get it to star with?

Hi sumpianodude,

How about a 5th method for the poll, which is to listen inwardly for the music that "needs" to be there?  Maybe some results will be conventional, and maybe not.  If one can compose masterfully and memorably in 19th century style, or even in 18th century classical style or baroque style, that person will become famous as there likely aren't any persons alive who can do this.

Originality for its own sake without inward hearing as a guide tends to be a bit hollow, in my opinion.

I look at it more in terms of unpredictability played off against predictability in a single composition, without regard to the goal of historical originality.

Some of the greatest composers were very memorable without being significantly original in terms of harmony, form, orchestration, et c.


Mvh,
Michael

[bronnestam]

I am not into composing (yet, but I intend to start  ) but I am an experienced writer.

You know, it is said that there are only 7 original plots out there, and all stories ever written are just derived from these. Sometimes you can boil it down even further: every story starts with "a stranger comes to town" or "someone goes out on a journey". Or even shorter: a state of balance is disordered ... 

So, this means you should not bother trying to make up a "original" plot at all. Just rely on yourself, because you are unique and your story will be too, in the way you tell it - if you don't try to copy someone else, that is. Npw, let's paraphrase this to music composing ...

No, I cannot "make up a story plot" just out of thin air. You have to give me something, a starting point. A little trick is to copy a plot from another genre, or even a news notice, and move it to another setting. Take an event from today's headlines and paraphrase it to an SF or fanatsy story. Take a very old story, an ancient Greek drama for example, and make it modern. Let a story about a conflict between two countries be a quarrel between two neighbours in the suburb. Or the opposite ...
Or take a photo by random and tell a story about it, see where your imagination will lead you. Or take three words by random and make up sentences with them. Anything will do!


So how do you do this in music? Well, listen to a genre you normally dislike. Say you don't like country music. Steal a few bars from Kenny Rogers or whoever and strip it down to the pure melody, then rewrite in Beethoven style. Or the opposite. (It's done all the time, by the way ...)
Or use a photo, look at it and describe it on your piano. Or do as a rock star I know, who creates melody lines out of interesting verbal expressions, and sometimes does the opposite. Steal an old poem.

I think what you need is to play around, mix the genres, experiment with old ideas. Most of all, don't be afraid of making something "bad". If I demanded from myself that every writing attempt would be great, I would never achieve anything. My good ideas are always developed from bad or lame ideas!

[themeandvariation]

Hi, somepianodude.
If your ear doesn't take you with a melody that 'grabs' you, or that the melodic idea is immediately rejected as being derivative…. Then,  *If you have the first melodic phrase written, (or better yet, the first two phrases)… That phrase has a shape, and a rhythm  (a motif)  that can be used as An option for permutation…  So you might take that shape, and start it on another note… You could turn the shape upside-down, or backwards, or stretch the intervalic note relation of that shape, or even 'tighten' it…     The same could be done with the rhythmical content of the phrase… Or one could even employ both ideas to a single phrase…  If you have 2 phrases written, you have even more material to work with… and can even create a dialogue between the two 'voices'…. These ideas can be helpful if ideas are not coming to you in a natural way…  These are only options, but may trigger other ideas…. Composing can be tricky business….  The emotional content of your first spark of melody….can be a guide for trying to sustain that emotional content…  
Cheers!

[themeandvariation]

also, as bronnestam mentions: "melody lines out of interesting verbal expressions, and sometimes does the opposite. Steal an old poem. "

This is an excellent idea to add to your compositional toolbox.

[goldentone]

I have always hummed and sung.  When you want to compose, you want to create.  The music is in your soul.  It may not sound very original now, but it's there.  If you have attained some skill in improvising on piano, that is an excellent way to tap the Muse.  Along the way I concluded that my desire to compose was so deep that it must one day come.

[themeandvariation]

To goldentone,
Reading your 'Farmer Almanic'… you have a beautiful way with words… I hope 'that day' of composing has already arrived with you… If it has, I would be interested in hearing a piece..   
  (If it hasn't quite yet, and you feel destined that way….  you should definitely, imo,  take the plunge!)

[themeandvariation]

*Farmer's Almanac   (drat - the expiring modify button!)

[louispodesta]

Composition/theory is basic arithmetic.  Accordingly, there are no more original melodies. 

In that there are only seven notes, with accidentals, just how many permutations do you think there have been in the last 250 years?

Aaron Copeland stated in no uncertain terms that the reason he started composing in "twelve tone" is that he could no longer come up with any more traditional melodies.

For the record, all of the composers of the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries, borrowed or stole melodies from other compositions.   Everybody knew it.

And, if it turned out to be a great piece, nobody minded it!

[themeandvariation]

Louis, i believe your position is a tad reductionist…. With the widened harmonic palette, floating time signatures, and rhythmical complexity ushered into the 20th century, i believe that there are many possibilities  (inexhaustible?) yet to be explored…And Even within the framework of previous styles…. All has not been said.. And one needn't be deterred by the momentum of all that has come before…

Supposedly….. While preparing Bach's obituary, C.P. E. Bach wrote to Mizler:  "The deceased was, like myself and all real musicians, no lover of dry mathematical stuff"… 
And yet, he could employ such rigorous mathematics, and still dance on the head of a pin…. as in "The Art of Fugue", "a Musical Offering"….

[ted]

Melody is a funny, ineffable thing. Many highly trained, accomplished composers produce few memorable examples, but someone with little training and less technique fiddles about on a piano and comes up with a tune that sets the world alight. I would not judge yourself by your ability to write them, but just carry on creating music and pay attention to phrases which arise out of your sounds. When one partially occurs, refrain from forcing its completion at once, but return to it over time, allowing it to crystallise in your mind. Rarely, a strong one will come unbidden and complete. Such musical occasions are among the happiest possible.

[michael_sayers]

Composition/theory is basic arithmetic.  Accordingly, there are no more original melodies.  

In that there are only seven notes, with accidentals, just how many permutations do you think there have been in the last 250 years?

Hi Louis,

I don't agree that there are no more original diatonic melodies.  If a melody is going to have (for example) eight notes, with only seven tones available to use for any of the notes, then one can check that seven to the eighth power is 5764801.  And then one needs to factor in the variables of note duration and rhythm.

If what you say is true, then one would have to conclude (as an example) that if Mozart had lived an additional 30 years, he would have come up with no more original melodies, or else would have composed the later original melodies by Beethoven, Chopin, et al., leaving them to run out of original melodies.

Sometimes a very minimalistic "melody" can be effective depending on the harmonization, and also there can be motivic factors, counterpoint and thematic transformation to provide content.  In some such instances it can be hard to say or define what a melody is or when one is present as separate from the other factors.  For instance and when properly considered, is there an opening melody to the first movement of Beethoven's 5th Symphony?


Mvh,
Michael

[mjames]

Composition/theory is basic arithmetic.  Accordingly, there are no more original melodies.  

In that there are only seven notes, with accidentals, just how many permutations do you think there have been in the last 250 years?

Aaron Copeland stated in no uncertain terms that the reason he started composing in "twelve tone" is that he could no longer come up with any more traditional melodies.

For the record, all of the composers of the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries, borrowed or stole melodies from other compositions.   Everybody knew it.

And, if it turned out to be a great piece, nobody minded it!

Really, that's your answer to this thread? "We're out of melodies!"

So silly..

[louispodesta]

Okay, please let me expound on my definition of what constitutes a popular piece of music, of any genre.  This is directly related to my thesis associated with my video.

1)  It has a distinctive rhythmic character/signature.
2)  It is not metronomic in nature and is fluid.
3)  It has an easily recognizable and pleasant melody.

So, in 1971, I was at North Texas and in the process heard every jazz and also avant-garde (including electronic) piece of music imaginable.  Just recently, I found out that a major number of the PhD. Composition Majors later morphed into IT Computer Specialists.

I don't wonder what happened to their great melodies because I know what didn't happened to their non-consonant harmonic works.  They died.

A few years back, I was taught by a theory tutor that practically every major jazz and show tune of the 1930's, 40's, and 50's was ripped off from the Original Episcopal Hymnal, which was harmonized "plain song."  Pink Floyd and the Police did the same thing with Scottish folk songs.  Rock and rollers (Clapton, Hendrix, ZZ Top, and Zepplin) did it with traditional southern American blues songs.

So, when I say that there no more original melodies, where do you think all of the aforementioned artists got there stuff from?  I just told you:  they stole it.

Chopin and Brahms took every folk melody that could find and re-worked it.  Did all of the major Opera composers do the same thing?  Of course they did.

And, "Tin Pan Alley" songwriters used these operatic works to write their music.  Is there anybody out there who has ever listened to the music of John Williams who does not think that he can write out the entire score of Gustav Holt's "The Planets" from memory?

What I am trying to convey is what one of my composition teachers told me which was that the most successful composer is the one who is the most successful thief.  He had a MM in theory from North Texas (a true rarity), and believe me, someone taught that to him.

[michael_sayers]

Hi Louis,

I am aware of some music which through attribution is based on a folk song - such as Liszt's Abschied, which is based on a Russian folk song - and, also, I keep a recollection of instances where one composer's melody is duplicated by another, and there are many of these, though due to differences of tempo, harmonization and texture, one doesn't always immediately detect the similarity.  Probably the latter are for the most part inadvertent and are inevitable with some frequency of occurrence due to the constrictions of the pre-20th century music paradigm.

And of course there are such things as the sets of variations by a second composer and on thematic material originating with Chopin, Paganini, Arcangelo Corelli, et al.

Maybe you can point me to something written up on the subject that goes deeper?

I don't think there is much deeper to go, but the composition teacher you mentioned seemed to think otherwise.

Though you don't mention it, that Scriabin is correct, in that with Wagner's music one sometimes can hear material by Felix Mendelssohn, only covers one composer, and the similarity is episodic and seemingly incidental for the previously stated reason.


Mvh,
Michael

[yadeehoo]

Do you hear a melody in your head at all if you stop thinking?

The hard work for many composers is to bring that imaginary melody into the real world using instrument or voice, it's the technical part. You should be able to hear something. If you don't well, you can still copy ideas you like from others and combine them in a different way.

In both cases songwriting is a craft that is learnable