Should certain repertoire be off limits??

[sabtan]

Should certain repertoire be off limits to "amateurs"?

For instance certain work like Ravel's Gaspard, Chopin's piano concertos, the final piano sonatas of Schubert's etc

While personally I don't think any piece should be "off limits" to anybody, but I do think pianists should be discerning enough to know one's strengths and weaknesses.

For example I have small hands, so I know I can't play certain Brahms or Rachmaninoff pieces.

[cbreemer]

Unless you are a pro, you need to accept that you'll never master some pieces to the level of performing or recording. However I think it's good to cut your teeth on something above your level now and then. Like, getting out of your comfort zone. Not all the time though, the best part of your repertoire should be pieces that you *can* master.

Small hands can actually attain a wider stretch over the years, is my experience. Well, leave out small. I don't have particularly small hands but I can reach much more than, say, 10 years ago.
I sometimes do stretching exercises away from the piano, and I believe it helps. By all means
don't shy away from pieces with large spans. If one is really impossible then roll it, ask the other hand to help, or leave out a note. Even Alicia de Larrocha played Rachmaninov, and who cares if she had to improvise once in a while.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Should certain repertoire be off limits to "amateurs"?

For instance certain work like Ravel's Gaspard, Chopin's piano concertos, the final piano sonatas of Schubert's etc

While personally I don't think any piece should be "off limits" to anybody, but I do think pianists should be discerning enough to know one's strengths and weaknesses.

In truth, I'm not sure that amateur v professional is necessarily the issue. There are some pieces that should be off-limits to certain professionals, because their musical aesthetic is unsuited to these pieces. I've heard many performances of pieces where a good amateur is better than a badly-suited professional. I think Chopin's concerti and late Schubert are perfectly accessible to good amateurs; Gaspard is another matter. In general self-knowledge is an asset, as you correctly state. If something's a little above your comfort zone, definitely tackle it - it will help your development. If two notches above where you are, give it a go, but don't expect too much. Note your failings, don't be disheartened by them, and try to learn from them. However, people at Beethoven op 49 sonata level should emphatically not be jumping straight into Rach 3.

[mjames]

The only difference between a pro and amateur is money. I've seen amateurs pull off some amazing Gaspard de la nuits and alkan's solo concerto. I've seen some pretty shitty pro pianists. So please refrain from making comments like "amateurs shouldnt ___________" etc.

[hardy_practice]

Bach and Mozart (and everything else 18th and 17th century apart from Clementi).  It's a seriously different touch.

[cbreemer]

The only difference between a pro and amateur is money. I've seen amateurs pull off some amazing Gaspard de la nuits and alkan's solo concerto.

I don't consider those guys amateurs. They nearly always are conservatory trained, they just don't do it for a living.

[cbreemer]

But it is true, the distinction between amateur and pro is not a very useful one. For me the difference is whether one has been conservatory-trained with all the works, or not. Then of course there are gradations in that, too.
Maybe nothing is really off-limits - anythings is possible if you really set your mind to it. But the time it will cost is inversely proportional to the training you've got under your belt.

[iansinclair]

In answer to the original question -- no.  Subject, however, to one's personal judgement of what one can or cannot actually achieve.  There is no point in trying to play something which is so far beyond either one's technical or musical skill that one can't make it sound decent at least to one's self.  To play in public?  Again, no -- but be aware that the public may expect, with some justice, a decent performance!

As to professional vs. amateur?  Hooey.  As someone has noted, the difference is in whether one gets paid or not, not whether one has a certain ability or not.  Indeed I would go a bit farther than that, and limit the term professional to one who manages a sizable fraction of his or her income from performing or teaching -- but, except that that person is likely to be able to practice more (maybe not!) it makes no difference.

And as to conservatory trained vs. otherwise... again, I beg to differ.  The major difference there is that it is likely that the conservatory trained individual has had access to better teaching.  Whether or not they had the ability to take advantage of that is another question entirely, and it is perfectly likely that they may end up as a technically highly qualified musical snob with an emotional range all the way from a to b.  Depends on the individual, not the name of the school they went to.

[sabtan]

Posed this question because there are several elitist " professionals" who think "amateurs" just shouldn't touch these pieces.

Like I said above, I don't think anybody should feel limited to attempt any of the difficult pieces, if you are confident in your technical ability and/or skills.
However, most pianists would know what his or her strengths are, and if you were to perform in a public performance or exam, you'll know not to choose pieces that would downgrade your overall performance.

[ted]

Hundreds of pieces are "off limits" for me because I cannot be bothered playing sounds I do not really enjoy. I could probably learn lots of things to a competent level but I see little point in doing so just because they are famous, because people say I ought to play them, or to prove I can do it. I am rarely moved by anything except my own strange creations these days, so in a certain sense everything is "off limits" for me. In general terms, however, I agree with Ian; the best answer for most players is "no".

[chopinlover01]

As many have said already, self knowledge is key.
It does seem that some pianists are definitely not nearly as well suited to tackle certain rep as others- Horowitz doesn't seem like a Ravel guy to me, and Paul Barton doesn't seem like a Haydn guy to me.
Martha Argerich is the only person who I trust with all the piano repertoire.

(inb4 Thal says that all Schumann music should be off limits)

[thorn]

Posed this question because there are several elitist " professionals" who think "amateurs" just shouldn't touch these pieces.

That is because if the elite pianist counted the amateur pianist as his equal, it would undermine his institutions.

To say that a pianist with a day job and a low profile teacher down the street can play the Liszt Sonata as well as Horowitz and Argerich undermines members of the elite who can lay a claim to their success. That Horowitz and Argerich would have played like Horowitz and Argerich without the support of the elite isn't something we're allowed to question- it's blasphemous.

But if you get over the initial "blasphemy!!!" reaction, is it really that crazy to suggest that even without the people behind them Horowitz and Argerich would have been great musicians? That you'd find Argerich on a street piano playing just like she does now? Is that such a pie in the sky thought?

I'm aware the above is an oversimplification ignoring a lot of variables but my point is made.

Of course there are going to be pieces that amateurs are told they "shouldn't" touch...

[amytsuda]

Coming from the country of Karaoke box, I really wish the world of piano becomes like that. Taylor Swift Mariah Carey never ask us not to sing their songs, why pianist world is so uptight! I like listening to amateurs performing awfully difficult pieces even with 1,000 wrong notes. It's more interesting often than sitting uncomfortably in a concert hall where you have to be absolutely still to be quiet to listen to an academic performance.

[outin]

Coming from the country of Karaoke box, I really wish the world of piano becomes like that. Taylor Swift Mariah Carey never ask us not to sing their songs, why pianist world is so uptight! I like listening to amateurs performing awfully difficult pieces even with 1,000 wrong notes. It's more interesting often than sitting uncomfortably in a concert hall where you have to be absolutely still to be quiet to listen to an academic performance.

Interesting maybe, but not very enjoyable. Makes me feel similar (almost physical) discomfort as listening to tone deaf people singing karaoke. Which doesn't mean people should be discouraged to sing and play whatever they want in the comfort of their own home or among similar minded peers.

[visitor]

*insert obligatory bobby Schumann jab
**will circle back I this later 

[chopinlover01]

*insert obligatory bobby Schumann jab
**will circle back I this later 

Hey, I claimed that one!

_{Well, kind of. I made a disclaimer before Thal got here..}

[michael_sayers]

Hundreds of pieces are "off limits" for me because I cannot be bothered playing sounds I do not really enjoy. I could probably learn lots of things to a competent level but I see little point in doing so just because they are famous, because people say I ought to play them, or to prove I can do it. I am rarely moved by anything except my own strange creations these days, so in a certain sense everything is "off limits" for me. In general terms, however, I agree with Ian; the best answer for most players is "no".

Hi Ted,

Sometimes playing music one doesn't like, and going outside of one's musical comfort zone, can be a good thing.  Eventually it can happen that one starts to like particular expressive challenges, and also the music connected with those challenged.

At the same time, you are right that one needs to be selective and also uninfluenced by popular taste about what repertoire pianists should focus on.  Popular taste changes, and it always is good to be a bit of a contrarian who is ahead of the curve.


Mvh,
Michael

[lmpianist]

In the privacy of my home I sometimes dust off my copy of the Liszt sonata and try to play through sections of it.  I can't play most of it for s**t, but there are rare moments of brilliance that make the entire exercise worthwhile.  So no, I have no issue with trying to play music that is way out of my league, but if I can't play it well enough to meet my own standards, I wouldn't play it for anyone sitting within earshot expecting great things.  Most people are probably the same way.  That didn't really answer the question I guess.  Oh well.

[ewalker1]

We all go through phases of thinking repertoire is impossible.
I'm sure when you first started the piano, you would have looked at the pieces you are playing now and thought them to be impossible.
So after a few more years of hard work these pieces you describe will begin to look easier and easier, they will always be mindblowingly hard, but possible.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I don't consider those guys amateurs. They nearly always are conservatory trained, they just don't do it for a living.

I've performed the gaspard de la unit and played the Ondine in competition twice yet I consinder myself an amateur...

And do the original poster...

I've seen people play some crazy sh*t with small hands so no pieces shouldn't be off limits.  In fact, I don't like the idea that you think you CAN'T play certain pieces cause of whatever restrictions.  Truth is anyone can play anything, it's just a matter of how long it will take.  Of course with the exception of people with missing hands and fingers but the point still stays.

[michael_sayers]

I've performed the gaspard de la unit and I'm an amateur...

Hi Rachmaninoff_forever,

Just give Sorabji's music a whirl!




Mvh,
Michael

[thorn]

...I have no issue with trying to play music that is way out of my league, but if I can't play it well enough to meet my own standards, I wouldn't play it for anyone sitting within earshot expecting great things. 

This is my approach too.

Also agree with the 'going through phases' thing. I remember the first time I found the score of Iberia in the library and thinking 'not by any stretch of the imagination is this music for me'. Almost 10 years later I play two thirds of it. Of course I'm not going to play it like Alicia de Larrocha, but if I can take a well enough shot that a member of my audience will then go and find Alicia's version and then maybe listen to more Spanish music, or listen to more of Alicia's recordings, then that's good enough for me  

[sabtan]

And do the original poster...

I've seen people play some crazy sh*t with small hands so no pieces shouldn't be off limits.  In fact, I don't like the idea that you think you CAN'T play certain pieces cause of whatever restrictions.  Truth is anyone can play anything, it's just a matter of how long it will take.  Of course with the exception of people with missing hands and fingers but the point still stays.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm not being "intimidated" by my small hands, but just being realistic that I just couldn't reach those chords.
For example Rachmaninoff's Etudes Tableaux :

The left hand with those 10th chords, just impossible for me to reach.
Yes, even with small hands you can still play some amazing pieces, but you'll have to know how to "overcome" them by perhaps cheating a little. Ommiting certain notes here and there can work for some of the French pieces. Like playing Debussy's Reflets dans l'eau, I can arppegiate certain chords if I can't reach in whole.

So, I guess like what has been echoed by everyone else, you'll just have to know your limits. Not be afraid/ intimidated, but just know what pieces work well for you and what doesn't. 

[michael_sayers]

Hi Sabtan,

I've played one of these - a 7/8 size one - and it didn't perform any differently with the action than a full size keyboard.  Maybe this would be something for you to look into?

https://www.carolleone.com/78-size-keyboard/


Mvh,
Michael

[sabtan]

Hi Michael,

Yes I've heard of these keyboards. Don't think it's available in this neck of the woods ( New Zealand) yet, or maybe it is and I'm unaware of it. 

If you are wanting to play for pleasure at home, yes I think it's a great instrument for that.
However these are still not available for any of the professional exams ( diplomas) and/ or conservatory level.

Having said that, pianists like Maria Joao Pires also have relatively small hands and she plays beautiful Schubert and Chopin pieces. You'll just have to position your fingers differently

[michael_sayers]

Hi Sabtan,

At the Meadows School of the Arts at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, Texas, one can practice and also do the degree recitals on these keyboards, and I would bet that this includes the Artist Diploma programme.

https://www.smu.edu/Meadows/AreasOfStudy/Music/GraduateStudies/ArtistsDiploma


Mvh,
Michael

[j_menz]

Dallas is quite a hike from the Land of the long white shroud (Aotearoa).

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Hi Rachmaninoff_forever,

Just give Sorabji's music a whirl!




Mvh,
Michael

Nuh uh man it's like way harder than the gaspard and it sounds bad!