Help re: Part-Writing homework

[cuberdrift]

Hi all,

I have a concern regarding the use of parallel 5ths/octaves in Part-Writing exercises.

The rules say that the use of consecutive 5th or octave intervals is to be prohibited. However, what if they are NOT consecutive?

Let me elaborate a bit.

Let's say I have a 4/4 measure. The first beat consists of a C/G interval in the soprano/alto voices, and in the second beat, a D/A interval in those same voices. Of course, this is NOT ALLOWED.

However, what if the first beat is a C/G interval, and the FOURTH beat is a D/A interval? Are those STILL "parallel" 5ths? And if so, they aren't allowed?

Thanks for reading! I really am confused right now.

[iansinclair]

I remember we used to say that consecutive open fifths were not allowed -- but we were referring to bottles, not notes...

But seriously, parallel motion at any interval -- but particularly at the octave or the fifth or fourth -- is not a really good idea.  In your specific example, it would depend on what the parts are doing in between your first and fourth beats.  If they are just sitting there on the C and G, then move to D and A, that would be consecutive open fifths.  Probably not so good.  However, if either of them do something else in between (not an ornament, but a genuine melodic move) then there would be nothing amiss with it.

Having said all that, it's also worth remembering that "rules" in music reflect what has been found to sound right and work well most of the time, and one can find very good counterexamples to any of them.

[j_menz]

Having said all that, it's also worth remembering that "rules" in music reflect what has been found to sound right and work well most of the time, and one can find very good counterexamples to any of them.

Whilst that is certainly true in general, it is rarely wise to offer up such examples in one's homework. 

The rule against consecutive fifths is just that - consecutive. If another interval is inserted between, they cease to be consecutive and so are not infringing.

[quantum]

I find the word parallel to be more helpful to those studying harmony.  It is the parallel motion of voices with certain intervals that is discouraged. 

If for example you had Soprano / Alto:
C/G, D/G, C/G

There is oblique motion of the intervals, not parallel motion.  So this would be fine.  The beat in which these intervals fall is unimportant, what we are concerned about is motion between different sets of intervals.  C/G may repeat at a different point in the music, but again, the movement between intervals in this example is not parallel. 

Next example:
F/C, F#/C, G/B

Here we have two fourths that have the same numerical distance, but different quality.  This is OK.  The movement between intervals 1 and 2 is oblique, and between 2 and 3 contrary.  Intervals considered to be in parallel motion must be of the same distance and quality. 

[michael_sayers]

But seriously, parallel motion at any interval -- but particularly at the octave or the fifth or fourth -- is not a really good idea.

Hi Iansinclair,

Organum used parallel fifths and fourths, and there is nothing wrong with it.  And I know a composer who wrote an entire piano composition of open fifths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organum


Mvh,
Michael

[j_menz]

Organum used parallel fifths and fourths,

Isn't Organum monophonic?

[stevensk]

Parallel fifths and fourth is not allowed in "theory of harmonic" but is welome in music. 

[michael_sayers]

Isn't Organum monophonic?

J.S. Bach, one of the greatest masters of counterpoint, used parallel fifths in his music.


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.157.6229


Mvh,
Michael

[themeandvariation]

there are many caveats described  in the excerpt from  Michael's link…  Passing tones, on the off beat;  pauses between sections…  or simply written down incorrectly …  18 'incidents'  are cited - out of some 371 chorales --- This is hardly an endorsement by Bach for the use of parallel 5ths..

[michael_sayers]

there are many caveats described  in the excerpt from  Michael's link…  Passing tones, on the off beat;  pauses between sections…  or simply written down incorrectly …  18 'incidents'  are cited - out of some 371 chorales --- This is hardly an endorsement by Bach for the use of parallel 5ths..

Hi Themeandvariation,

The use of parallel fifths doesn't need J.S. Bach's endorsement.  This is 2015, not the baroque era.  Just listen to this composition from 1909-1910 and try to say that it sounds terrible because of the parallel fifths:

Mvh,
Michael

[stevensk]

Yes, originally my suggestion 

Or this one:

[stevensk]

Hi Themeandvariation,

The use of parallel fifths doesn't need J.S. Bach's endorsement.

Mvh,
Michael

-Actually, parallel fifths where quite common even in the baroque period. Listen to this:


 

[michael_sayers]

Yes, originally my suggestion 

Hi Stevensk,

I hadn't click on your link . . . LOL . . . sorry about this!


Mvh,
Michael

[themeandvariation]

Michael  ...I never said they sound terrible….  But, one must use them Deliberately …as one chooses every note…  The reason for being aware of such a rule, is akin to encouraging budding composers Not to always write their  chords in the root position…. (of course one could if they want to, and they may say that it sounds good that way…) It is being aware of one's options…. and being able to hear the difference….

[themeandvariation]

Stevensk… They may be popular…  Bartok used the tritone which was taboo …I am not against breaking rules…But one learns the reason for those rules… Here, for the poster, it is an exercise…  for problems to be worked out… to just ignore the rules misses the point of the exercise, obviously…  I am not here to argue whether they sound good or not…

[michael_sayers]

Michael  ...I never said they sound terrible….  But, one must use them Deliberately …as one chooses every note…  The reason for being aware of such a rule, is akin to encouraging budding composers Not to always write their  chords in the root position…. (of course one could if they want to, and they may say that it sounds good that way…) It is being aware of one's options…. and being able to hear the difference….

Hi Themeandvariation,

You are quite right about this - the composer needs to consider all such options and their permutations, and for a beginner there might not be much thought given to such things.  I just question if it still makes sense in 2015 to encourage a rule based approach where one option is prioritized over another, as such priorities don't carry much weight anymore.


Mvh,
Michael

[themeandvariation]

Yes. Finally, in the end there are no rules…or that the piece makes up it's own 'guidelines'…  I believe the purpose of the exercise is to (more) develop  the ability to hear each line as a distinct voice .  When voices are in parallel motion,  the effect to the ear  is quite like  2 voices blending into 1 … which is fine, of course…  Though if one is studying polyphony, the challenge (as an exercise) is to hear each voice as distinct - in order to develop that ability, should one want it.
ps… Ravel uses parallel motion quite effectively and all over the place in Bolero …mimicking the stops on an organ in places…  Not without a sense of humor, i remember some quote Ravel made about that piece:
"Before the first performance (of Bolero) I issued a warning to the effect that I had written was a piece lasting 17 minutes and consisting wholly of orchestral tissue without music…."  London Telegraph 1931 ..
And, remarking to Honegger :  "I have written one masterpiece.  That is the Bolero.. Unfortunately, it contains no music." 

[michael_sayers]

Yes. Finally, in the end there are no rules…or that the piece makes up it's own 'guidelines'…  I believe the purpose of the exercise is to (more) develop  the ability to hear each line as a distinct voice .  When voices are in parallel motion,  the effect to the ear  is quite like  2 voices blending into 1 … which is fine, of course…  Though if one is studying polyphony, the challenge (as an exercise) is to hear each voice as distinct - in order to develop that ability, should one want it..

Hi Themeandvariation,

You are quite right, and even in so-called "homophonic" music one at the start needs to analyze the movements of the voices and all possible permutations.  Eventually this becomes consolidated into compositional reflexes, and one doesn't have to think so much about it . . . one then knows how to contour the polyphonic aspect of homophonic music to get the intended result in terms of sound, emotion and direction.


Mvh,
Michael