How does one acquire really high levels of techincal skill?

[cuberdrift]

According to some scholars, Liszt said that he "practices [exercises] several hours a day...".

What are these "exercises"? People say that it is none other than his book of technical exercises, a REALLY thorough manual on a very wide range of pianistic techniques that I actually find very useful (albeit quite difficult!).

Does this mean that Liszt did nothing but TECHNICAL EXERCISES (not ETUDES) for HOURS a day? I mean, I used to be obsessed with these things...I used to spend at times almost two hours just doing scales and Hanon. And boy was it tiring and tedious! Now I just do little over 30 minutes warmup.

Is this the reason why Liszt became a virtuoso - because he did LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of warmups?

What is your opinion?

[j_menz]

Liszt also drank, smoked and womanised. I'm hoping the answer to his genius lies more in that direction.

[michael_sayers]

Liszt also drank, smoked and womanised. I'm hoping the answer to his genius lies more in that direction.

Hi j_menz,

And he also found time to compose reams of music and thousands of letters.


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

Is this the reason why Liszt became a virtuoso - because he did LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of warmups?

What is your opinion?

Hi cuberdrift,

I think one needs to look at how he played the piano, too, with a flat finger technique and also [later in life] sitting low and far back from the keys.


Mvh,
Michael

[faulty_damper]

 "Technique" is a fancy term for movement.  Learning all available movements is necessary for effortless technique.  Otherwise, you'll force certain movements to do unnecessary things and end up straining muscles.

All famous pianists that we have video record of relied on limited movements.  You can see what movements they use and what movements they do not.  You can also hear how certain movements directly affect tonal production.  This is one way that you can identify them because their limited movement vocabulary directly results in certain musical idiosyncrasies.  On a similar note, certain movements are much more prone to certain kinds of mistakes.  E.g. Low-sitting, flat-fingered playing tends to cause mistakes in certain kinds of passages across many different pianists.  This is one way you can tell if a person sits low and plays flat-fingered without even seeing him play.  Horowitz is a good example of the kinds of mistakes typical of low-sitting, flat-fingered playing.  Pianists that do not utilize such playing form will not make these kinds of mistakes.  They may make other mistakes typical of their playing form if they also have limited movements.

[yadeehoo]

It's funny how Horowitz did supposedly nothing right technically yet was one of the, if not, THE most virtuoso pianist of the 20th century. Also a great composer/arranger.

[sashaco]

I thought this was going to be a joke like, "How do you get to Carnegie Hall."

[michael_sayers]

It's funny how Horowitz did supposedly nothing right technically yet was one of the, if not, THE most virtuoso pianist of the 20th century. Also a great composer/arranger.

It sounds pretty good to me.


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

It's funny how Horowitz did supposedly nothing right technically yet was one of the, if not, THE most virtuoso pianist of the 20th century. Also a great composer/arranger.

t=23m18s

Starting right there to the end of the movement, just listen to all those technical flaws with the playing . . . LOL . . . there is nothing wrong with Vladimir Horowitz's technique, and it simply is unfortunate that he wasn't always presented at his best in his later years.


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

And here is Moszkowski's Etincelles Op. 36 No. 6 from the same 1951 Carnegie Hall recital.

t=92m08s


Mvh,
Michael

[louispodesta]

According to some scholars, Liszt said that he "practices [exercises] several hours a day...".

What are these "exercises"? People say that it is none other than his book of technical exercises, a REALLY thorough manual on a very wide range of pianistic techniques that I actually find very useful (albeit quite difficult!).

Does this mean that Liszt did nothing but TECHNICAL EXERCISES (not ETUDES) for HOURS a day? I mean, I used to be obsessed with these things...I used to spend at times almost two hours just doing scales and Hanon. And boy was it tiring and tedious! Now I just do little over 30 minutes warmup.

Is this the reason why Liszt became a virtuoso - because he did LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of warmups?

What is your opinion?

Please let us all know what type of instrument you play on, and whether or not it is in an air-conditioned environment.

[cabbynum]

I thought this was going to be a joke like, "How do you get to Carnegie Hall."

That's why I bought an art mentioned right next to Carnegie Hall so when people ask for directions to my place I can just say
"practice prsctice practice then take a left and I'm the third building"

[falala]

Liszt also drank, smoked and womanised. I'm hoping the answer to his genius lies more in that direction.

Hmmm... I think if that were the answer I'd be pretty famous by now.

[louispodesta]

Please let us all know what type of instrument you play on, and whether or not it is in an air-conditioned environment.

One more time, please.

[outin]

It sounds pretty good to me.

I think you should definitely discuss Horowitz's technical issues further with faulty_damper...

That should be fun for the rest of us...or not...

[chopinlover01]

And Gould's, and how Yuja Wang is an inferior musician to almighty Faulty   

[yadeehoo]

and how Yuja Wang is an inferior musician to almighty Faulty  

Are you serious ?

If you mean an interpreter isn't a musician then, yeah, cause she doesn't write her own songs like every other interpreter who make a living off of someone else's work.

But purely technically, she plays Horowitz songs like even him couldn't play it, and I'm sure he'd be glad about that. Like seriously, did you hear her play Danse Macabre or Carmen Variation ?

[outin]

Are you serious ?

If you mean an interpreter isn't a musician then, yeah, cause she doesn't write her own songs like every other interpreter who make a living off of someone else's work.

But purely technically, she plays Horowitz songs like even him couldn't play it, and I'm sure he'd be glad about that. Like seriously, did you hear her play Danse Macabre or Carmen Variation ?

Haven't been here long, have you? 

[stevensk]

Liszt also drank, smoked and womanised. I'm hoping the answer to his genius lies more in that direction.

Yes he did! Actually, Liszt didnt work at all.  His compositions was written by his wife, some of them stolen from Paganini. Liszt is known for beeing a very good pianist but remember, the most difficult pieces he played was actually played by a mechanical piano, the new invention at that time. 

[michael_sayers]

I think you should definitely discuss Horowitz's technical issues further with faulty_damper...

That should be fun for the rest of us...or not...

Hi outin,

I am game for it.


Mvh,
Michael

[chopinlover01]

Oooh, this is going to be FUN

[Bob]

Liszt is known for beeing a very good pianist....

 

[compline]

Yes he did! Actually, Liszt didnt work at all.  His compositions was written by his wife, some of them stolen from Paganini. Liszt is known for beeing a very good pianist but remember, the most difficult pieces he played was actually played by a mechanical piano, the new invention at that time.  

What's a mechanical piano, and what did it look like in  Liszt's day.  

[stevensk]

What's a mechanical piano, and what did it look like in  Liszt's day.  

-Ok, all acoustic pianos is mechanical, but here we are talking about an automatic musical device. A kind of self-playing piano. How it looked like? I guess it looked like an ordinary grand piano when Liszt performed in front of an audience. But this is just my guess

[chopinlover01]

-Ok, all acoustic pianos is mechanical, but here we are talking about an automatic musical device. A kind of self-playing piano. How it looked like? I guess it looked like an ordinary grand piano when Liszt performed in front of an audience. But this is just my guess

I have to highly doubt this. Do you have any sources for this claim? Liszt was know for his virtuosity, not for setting up an automatic piano, given the technology even existed at the time.

[michael_sayers]

I have to highly doubt this. Do you have any sources for this claim? Liszt was know for his virtuosity, not for setting up an automatic piano, given the technology even existed at the time.

Hi Chopinlover01,

I think the only things Liszt had like that were a little portable keyboard for practice while traveling, and a small keyboard built into one of his desks.  Neither had strings or produced any musical sound, as far as I am aware.  The two keyboards are in these photos.






Mvh,
Michael

[dogperson]

Hi Chopinlover01,

I think the only things Liszt had like that were a little portable keyboard for practice while traveling, and a small keyboard built into one of his desks.  Neither had strings or produced any musical sound, as far as I am aware.  The two keyboards are in these photos

Hi Michael
the photo below is from the Liszt museum.  In addition, Barenboim receivedhis inspiration for the new grand piano from the reconditioning of List's




Mvh,
Michael

[stevensk]

I have to highly doubt this. Do you have any sources for this claim? Liszt was know for his virtuosity, not for setting up an automatic piano, given the technology even existed at the time.

-Sorry guys, dont take it seriously, I was just kidding whith J_Menz post: "Liszt also drank, smoked and womanised. I'm hoping the answer to his genius lies more in that direction."

 

[michael_sayers]

Hi Dogperson,

What I really like the music rack on top of this other Chickering of Liszt's [I think these are two different Chickering grand pianos]:



That piano [or those pianos] are, as you say, at the Liszt Museum in Budapest.  Quite impressive is the Bechstein concert grand at the Liszt-Haus in Weimar, and which was used for his master classes:

I don't think the master class Bechstein is parallel strung, so I assume Barenboim's piano - which I don't know much about - is based on one of the others, or possibly even the other Bechstein grand at the Liszt-Haus, and which is parallel strung:



Or it could be based on the light brown Liszt Bechstein which tours around a lot.

Maybe you or someone else here knows which of these pianos is the model for Barenboim's instrument?

 
Mvh,
Michael

[dogperson]

Here is the history of the Liszt piano, restored and used by Barenboim as his inspiration.  It is currently in New York, on loan to the Met, for you lucky guys that can go see it

https://www.metmuseum.org/about-the-museum/press-room/exhibitions/2001/franz-liszts-grand-piano

[yadeehoo]

Liszt would have loved an iPad or something to go compose music in the forrest

[j_menz]

Liszt would have loved an iPad or something to go compose music in the forrest

What, like a pencil and paper? 

[michael_sayers]

Here is the history of the Liszt piano, restored and used by Barenboim as his inspiration.  It is currently in New York, on loan to the Met, for you lucky guys that can go see it

https://www.metmuseum.org/about-the-museum/press-room/exhibitions/2001/franz-liszts-grand-piano

Hi Dogperson,

Thanks for that link!  Paderewski himself owned an Erard and made his earliest recordings on it.


Mvh,
Michael

[lazyfingers]

Does this mean that Liszt did nothing but TECHNICAL EXERCISES (not ETUDES) for HOURS a day? I mean, I used to be obsessed with these things...I used to spend at times almost two hours just doing scales and Hanon. And boy was it tiring and tedious! Now I just do little over 30 minutes warmup.

Is this the reason why Liszt became a virtuoso - because he did LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of warmups?

What is your opinion?

My opinion is to practise the right thing the right way and often. At the risk of sounding "Zen" like, the right thing depends on you, what your fingers/brain can do, and what you are born with.

[visitor]

My opinion is to practise the right thing the right way and often. At the risk of sounding "Zen" like, the right thing depends on you, what your fingers/brain can do, and what you are born with.

this is quite true.  we are responsible for aiming and pulling the trigger, but we're limited by how many bullets nature loaded the gun with.

[pianowell]

Through mental practicing first, and only then through playing routine

[michael_sayers]

It is worth mentioning in this thread that there isn't a copy of any of the 12 volumes of Liszt exercises which is in Franz Liszt's hand.  I've never read a satisfactory explanation of what happened to the (alleged) manuscripts.  Maybe someone here knows more about it?

I wonder about it because at the Liszt master classes he showed no interest in advising on or improving students' piano technique, so to have 12 volumes of technical exercises by Liszt seems to be a bit out of character for him.


Mvh,
Michael

[j_menz]

It is worth mentioning in this thread that there isn't a copy of any of the 12 volumes of Liszt exercises which is in Franz Liszt's hand.  I've never read a satisfactory explanation of what happened to the (alleged) manuscripts.  Maybe someone here knows more about it?

I wonder about it because at the Liszt master classes he showed no interest in advising on or improving students' piano technique, so to have 12 volumes of technical exercises by Liszt seems to be a bit out of character for him.

They've always struck me as a bit of a curiosity too. Conventional composition date is 1868-73, which would be around the time he was giving master classes in Weimar and Budapest, though there seems to be no reference to anything like them in accounts of those classes.

Seems the first publication was after (just after) his death, too.

Eau de Rat, perchance?

[michael_sayers]

They've always struck me as a bit of a curiosity too. Conventional composition date is 1868-73, which would be around the time he was giving master classes in Weimar and Budapest, though there seems to be no reference to anything like them in accounts of those classes.

Seems the first publication was after (just after) his death, too.

Eau de Rat, perchance?

I wonder if they could have been published without manuscripts given to the publisher in Liszt's handwriting . . .


Mvh,
Michael

[Bob]

Lots of writing.  I wondered how he had time. 

If it an exercise routine though, why would he spend time writing it out necessarily?  Why not use short hand for it?  Or if it's Liszt.... Why not just memorize it?  (short hand again then)

To throw that idea then, maybe it's Liszt's, but he wasn't the one who wrote it out.  Probably easy enough to see on a manuscript though.

[pianoplunker]

Liszt would have loved an iPad or something to go compose music in the forrest

He probably would use an ipad as a paperweight. Perhaps a portable battery powered midi keyboard would be more useful to him.

[stevensk]

Liszt would have loved an iPad or something to go compose music in the forrest

..or he would waste his time gaming, twittering, facebooking, pianoforum posting, youtube watching, mailing, pornsurfing...

[michael_sayers]

..or he would waste his time gaming, twittering, facebooking, pianoforum posting, youtube watching, mailing, pornsurfing...

Are you suggesting that Piano Street is a waste of time?  I think there is someone named Nils who might have something to say about that.


Mvh,
Michael

[stevensk]

Are you suggesting that Piano Street is a waste of time?  I think there is someone named Nils who might have something to say about that.

Mvh,
Michael

-That was funny!  Trevlig midsommar Michael!

[michael_sayers]

-That was funny!  Trevlig midsommar Michael!

And happy midsommar to you as well!


Mvh,
Michael

[cuberdrift]

Hey everyone! Thank you for your comments, even the funny ones.

Are you serious ?

If you mean an interpreter isn't a musician then, yeah, cause she doesn't write her own songs like every other interpreter who make a living off of someone else's work.

But purely technically, she plays Horowitz songs like even him couldn't play it, and I'm sure he'd be glad about that. Like seriously, did you hear her play Danse Macabre or Carmen Variation ?

Really? Yuja Wang better than the legendary Horowitz? Come on. 
I mean consider this. Yuja Wang played Volodos' Turkish March. Volodos also played his Turkish March. Volodos' version is better. Volodos played Horowitz's Racozky March. Horowitz played his own Racozky March. Horowitz's version is FAR better, I can't see why you'd pick Volodos' recording of Horowitz's Racozky March over Horowitz's recording of Horowitz's Racozky March.

So, Wang < Volodos < Horowitz.

[flashyfingers]

yet another thread lacking actual advice...fail lol