Iron Bars on Fingers While Practicing?

[rubinsteinmad]

If I practice like this, when I take the bars off, will my touch be lighter and more clear? Or will it damage my hands?

[visitor]

This is a horrible idea and could destroy your technique
For the same reasons that coaches found out that having soccer players practice w weighted balls didn't translate to better play

Essentially your Cns works by ingraining motor patterns specific to the demands
So you will essentially get better at playing with iron bars on you fingers but when you remove them you will experience a deterioration w the new stimulus of unweighted fingers since you have not practiced that motor later  te nervous system will not be tuned to this

[iansinclair]

What a ghastly thought.  Remember that what is needed for piano is not strength but speed and accuracy.

Maybe for carillon?

[thalbergmad]

Such contraptions created the greatest disaster in musical history when Schumann damaged his hands and then concentrated on composition.

Thal

[mjames]

Such contraptions created the greatest disaster in musical history when Schumann damaged his hands and then concentrated on composition.

Thal

LMAO

youre the best

[michael_sayers]

This is a horrible idea and could destroy your technique
For the same reasons that coaches found out that having soccer players practice w weighted balls didn't translate to better play

Essentially your Cns works by ingraining motor patterns specific to the demands
So you will essentially get better at playing with iron bars on you fingers but when you remove them you will experience a deterioration w the new stimulus of unweighted fingers since you have not practiced that motor later  te nervous system will not be tuned to this

Hi visitor,

Many pianists though use grand pianos with higher than normal key weights for practicing.  I personally know a concert pianist who has a N.Y. Steinway grand piano with quintuple weighted keys - just for practicing, of course!


Mvh,
Michael

[chopinlover01]

As Thal said, Schumann famously injured his hand using such devices, and then (to Thal's dismay) focused on composing.
No, you shouldn't do it. Ever.
The only real thing that I've seen work for myself and others is getting foam balls that are fairly resistant, and squeezing those balls (don't take it out of context) to keep your hand muscles in decent shape.

[pianoplunker]

This is a horrible idea and could destroy your technique
For the same reasons that coaches found out that having soccer players practice w weighted balls didn't translate to better play

True. The coaches found that the players could not run as fast with weighted balls

[ted]

Never having tried it I cannot say for sure but the idea doesn't appeal at all. On the other hand, I know with certainty that my Virgil Practice Clavier has been a wonderful help in maintaining my technique over almost fifty years, so I am not in a position to criticise artificial devices unequivocally. But surely weights on the fingers would encourage stronger upstrokes and weaker downstrokes, which result seems intuitively contrary to common sense ?

As for Schumann, quite a few people seem to think that he gave himself a focal dystonia playing too hard, then set about trying to fix it with apparatus which caused further injury. There is a discussion on it somewhere on the internet but I cannot remember where I read it.

[stevensk]

YES! Do it!

(there are way too many pianists in the world to compete whith) 

[pianoplayer002]

But surely weights on the fingers would encourage stronger upstrokes and weaker downstrokes, which result seems intuitively contrary to common sense ?

I agree. As far as I can tell there is some muscular development involved in technique but it is not something that can/should be forced for the simple reason that you will gain all the strength you need simply from playing (I have nothing against your Practise Clavier; I haven't tried one). Alfred Cortot himself writes in his Rational Principles of Pianoforte Technique:

In the work known as "Articulation", certain teachers demand a greater output of strength, from their pupils, in raising the finger above the key-board, than in pressing the key down. May we be allowed to give the lie to the efficiency of this utterly anti-physiological system.

[michael_sayers]

Never having tried it I cannot say for sure but the idea doesn't appeal at all. On the other hand, I know with certainty that my Virgil Practice Clavier has been a wonderful help in maintaining my technique over almost fifty years, so I am not in a position to criticise artificial devices unequivocally. But surely weights on the fingers would encourage stronger upstrokes and weaker downstrokes, which result seems intuitively contrary to common sense ?

As for Schumann, quite a few people seem to think that he gave himself a focal dystonia playing too hard, then set about trying to fix it with apparatus which caused further injury. There is a discussion on it somewhere on the internet but I cannot remember where I read it.

Hi Ted

For stronger up strokes one can drill octaves (especially rapido and staccato), and also rotation-intensive tremolos.

With the down strokes I've noticed a lot of pianists sit too high (in my opinion) and have to push straight down, which I bet can cause problems vs. sitting lower and further back to have a forward angle to the downward motion and also to "pull" the sound out of the piano with one's back muscles.

Strength though can't be very important, otherwise how did the elderly and alcoholic Nyiregyhazi get his big sound?  Size of tone and the stamina for it must be mostly about technique.


MVh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

Such contraptions created the greatest disaster in musical history when Schumann damaged his hands and then concentrated on composition.

Thal

Hi Thal,

So you consider this to be a "disaster"?

And also this?

And this?

Mvh,
Michael

[thalbergmad]

Pointless meandering waffle.

Thal

[louispodesta]

If I practice like this, when I take the bars off, will my touch be lighter and more clear? Or will it damage my hands?

I got permanently kicked off another website for honestly commenting on this type of B.S.  There, it had to do with his Holiness Seymour Bernstein recommending (oh, just as a practice aid, and no more) the use of wrist weights in order to simulate arm weight.

When I named my video "Your Piano Teacher Taught You Wrong," I left out the words:  in regards piano technique, most every your teacher opens their mouths in a lesson, however well intentioned, they don't have a clue as to what they are talking about.

And, if you want to send me personal messages as to what your teacher taught you:  please go right ahead.   My goal is not to damn, but instead, it is to get you as a student to the next level of performance.

[louispodesta]

My apologies, the second paragraph should read "every time."

[rubinsteinmad]

YES! Do it!

(there are way too many pianists in the world to compete whith) 

Even if I didn't do it, I'd be no where your level. I don't even need to hear your playing to conclude that; my playing is so bad 

[rubinsteinmad]

OK I abandoned the idea ! Thank you people SO MUCH!

[faulty_damper]

In Korea, many students who want to apply to a university to study piano go to great lengths to be accepted.  There will be hundreds of students applying for half a dozen open seats so the competition is great.  The audition repertoire is fixed - everyone plays the same thing - so they know well beforehand what is required.  Auditions last a couple of minutes but one mistake and they are asked to stop and leave.  If you exceed the time limit (e.g. 2 minutes for Chopin's Op. 10-4), you'll be asked to stop and leave or be automatically disqualified.  Some pianists will practice incessantly until their fingers bleed just to get the etude right.  Others will attach weights to their fingers in the hope of strengthening their fingers so that they can use that strength to play faster.  Does it work?  My friend who was accepted and graduated said that "they are crazy."  She never did such crazy things.  In fact, she never even had a piano teacher until a couple of months before the audition.  She auditioned and was accepted in spite of never having done anything like that.  She even won the school's piano competitions and the concerto competition a couple of times and got to perform with the school's orchestra.  That's kind of impressive.  And if your preconceived notions of piano playing include finger strengthening, stamina, endurance, etc, then that may seem astounding that she accomplished so much in spite of never having even done anything ridiculous like finger weights.

[michael_sayers]

In Korea, many students who want to apply to a university to study piano go to great lengths to be accepted.  There will be hundreds of students applying for half a dozen open seats so the competition is great.  The audition repertoire is fixed - everyone plays the same thing - so they know well beforehand what is required.  Auditions last a couple of minutes but one mistake and they are asked to stop and leave.  If you exceed the time limit (e.g. 2 minutes for Chopin's Op. 10-4), you'll be asked to stop and leave or be automatically disqualified.  Some pianists will practice incessantly until their fingers bleed just to get the etude right.  Others will attach weights to their fingers in the hope of strengthening their fingers so that they can use that strength to play faster.  Does it work?  My friend who was accepted and graduated said that "they are crazy."  She never did such crazy things.  In fact, she never even had a piano teacher until a couple of months before the audition.  She auditioned and was accepted in spite of never having done anything like that.  She even won the school's piano competitions and the concerto competition a couple of times and got to perform with the school's orchestra.  That's kind of impressive.  And if your preconceived notions of piano playing include finger strengthening, stamina, endurance, etc, then that may seem astounding that she accomplished so much in spite of never having even done anything ridiculous like finger weights.

Hi Faulty_damper,

The best thing, in my opinion, is to practice on a piano with a heavy (but not "tight") action, especially as it is much easier to transition from a heavy action to a light action, than the other way around.


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

Pointless meandering waffle.

Thal

Hi Thal,

You should have lived in a prior age when it was "okay" to disparage the music of one or more great composers, as with the Brahmsians vs. the Lisztians and Wagnerites, Franz Joseph Haydn's rejection of the innovations in Beethoven's music, and the sons of J.S. Bach saying their father's music was old fashioned and out-of-date.

All of this music - and including the works of Robert Schumann - is by now entirely accepted on a musicological basis.

This is just my opinion, of course!


Mvh,
Michael

[alistaircrane4]

Such contraptions created the greatest disaster in musical history when Schumann damaged his hands and then concentrated on composition.

Thal

I have a genuine desire to know why you dislike Schumann so much. The way you speak about him reminds me of myself on the topic of Mozart. What is it that deters you from his music? I admit I used to really dislike Schumann save for the Preambule from Carnaval Op.9 until I discovered his Op.11's third movement. Now Schumann is my second favorite composer and my favorite symphony is one of his also.

[visitor]

Pointless meandering waffle.

Thal

Yep . True that.

[tombikadam]

In Korea, many students who want to apply to a university to study piano go to great lengths to be accepted.  There will be hundreds of students applying for half a dozen open seats so the competition is great.  The audition repertoire is fixed - everyone plays the same thing - so they know well beforehand what is required.  Auditions last a couple of minutes but one mistake and they are asked to stop and leave.  If you exceed the time limit (e.g. 2 minutes for Chopin's Op. 10-4), you'll be asked to stop and leave or be automatically disqualified.  Some pianists will practice incessantly until their fingers bleed just to get the etude right.  Others will attach weights to their fingers in the hope of strengthening their fingers so that they can use that strength to play faster.  Does it work?  My friend who was accepted and graduated said that "they are crazy."  She never did such crazy things.  In fact, she never even had a piano teacher until a couple of months before the audition.  She auditioned and was accepted in spite of never having done anything like that.  She even won the school's piano competitions and the concerto competition a couple of times and got to perform with the school's orchestra.  That's kind of impressive.  And if your preconceived notions of piano playing include finger strengthening, stamina, endurance, etc, then that may seem astounding that she accomplished so much in spite of never having even done anything ridiculous like finger weights.

In my opinion, she did things that you don't know, I met a lot of pianists including professors, when it came to ask or consult about any subjects, they don't share

[stevensk]

"Pointless meandering waffle"
Yep . True that.

-Soo...why are you here? 

[faulty_damper]

In my opinion, she did things that you don't know, I met a lot of pianists including professors, when it came to ask or consult about any subjects, they don't share

I've seen and listened to her practice.  She doesn't do anything crazy.  And she shared quite a lot.

What you've experienced, people usually don't share with people they don't know, who are seen as leeches/free-loaders, or are perceived as unworthy of their time and energies.  Their time is something that must be earned, not given away freely.  People don't respect free things.

[Bob]

I wouldn't practice with weights on.  I've tried it a few times.  You're training your fingers and forearm to lift more when the weights come off.  Maybe some people use it more.  It faded quickly for me.  Something that pulls down sounds more interesting but I never figured anything out.  Hang a weight from your forearm maybe, but that's still tough to do.

One thing I do like and try now and then is a little stretchy glove with small packs of pennies attached at the finger tips.  It was cheap and fairly easy to make.  That does give the fingers a push all around, not in just one direction.  It's not possible to play with them on, but it do seem like there's some use for it, similar to just flexing your fingers out and in.

[chopinlover01]

Hi Thal,

You should have lived in a prior age when it was "okay" to disparage the music of one or more great composers, as with the Brahmsians vs. the Lisztians and Wagnerites, Franz Joseph Haydn's rejection of the innovations in Beethoven's music, and the sons of J.S. Bach saying their father's music was old fashioned and out-of-date.

All of this music - and including the works of Robert Schumann - is by now entirely accepted on a musicological basis.

So now, purely because they are accepted, we cannot disparage them? Now, in the 21st century, when the idea of free speech has been accepted in most every developed country?

[michael_sayers]

So now, purely because they are accepted, we cannot disparage them? Now, in the 21st century, when the idea of free speech has been accepted in most every developed country?

Hi Chopinlover01,

The word "okay" was in quotation marks.


Mvh,
Michael

[chopinlover01]

Doesn't change what you said. You put the greats up on a pedestal of almost "untouchability", as though if you want to critique them, you needed to be born two hundred years ago.

[outin]

So now, purely because they are accepted, we cannot disparage them? Now, in the 21st century, when the idea of free speech has been accepted in most every developed country?

In my experience free speech only doesn't exist when it comes to Bach and Beethoven 

No-one seems to mind that I loathe P.Tchaikovsky and hate Mozart...

[barry1963]

strap iron bars on your fingers...think I can end this thread..answer :  LOL

[michael_sayers]

Doesn't change what you said. You put the greats up on a pedestal of almost "untouchability", as though if you want to critique them, you needed to be born two hundred years ago.

Hi Chopinlover01,

Thal's description of the great Schumann works I linked to was "pointless meandering waffle" - that isn't a critique and doesn't involve any analysis of the music and the issues which (seemingly, according to Thal) may or may not be there.  I am curious to know what the issues are, but Thal hasn't explained these in way that can be understood or examined.


Mvh,
Michael

[rubinsteinmad]

OK, how do I delete this topic? Because I think people are starting to be in atonality

[outin]

OK, how do I delete this topic? Because I think people are starting to be in atonality

You can't...and why would you want to? Don't fear atonality, embrace it!

[michael_sayers]

No-one seems to mind that I loathe P.Tchaikovsky and hate Mozart...

Even this?

And this?

Mvh,
Michael

[outin]

Even this?

How did you manage to pick my least favorite part of the suite?
In general I don't have anything against his ballet music, it's very appropriate. But he never should have messed with the piano.

And this?

That's just SO annoying...after 30 seconds I'm ready to use the clarinet as a baseball bat 

[michael_sayers]

How did you manage to pick my least favorite part of the suite?
In general I don't have anything against his ballet music, it's very appropriate. But he never should have messed with the piano.

Hi Outin,

Here is the same music arranged for piano solo instead of for orchestra:

I don't think that all of Tchaikovsky's piano music actually was composed by Tchaikovsky.  For instance, June in The Seasons is extremely similar to this music by Anton Rubinstein:

Here is a recording of June for comparison:

Alexander Siloti, who was Tchaikovsky's music editor, had a hand in Piano Concerto No. 1, and - one might be inclined to suspect - more than a hand in some of the other piano compositions.


Mvh,
Michael

[j_menz]

Alexander Siloti, who was Tchaikovsky's music editor, had a hand in Piano Concerto No. 1, and - one might be inclined to suspect - more than a hand in some of the other piano compositions.

In the case of PC1, "a hand" is something of an understatement.

As regards the rest, he'd probably sue over your suggestion of complicity.

[outin]

Hi Outin,

Here is the same music arranged for piano solo instead of for orchestra:

I don't think that all of Tchaikovsky's piano music actually was composed by Tchaikovsky.  For instance, June in The Seasons is extremely similar to this music by Anton Rubinstein:

Here is a recording of June for comparison:

Alexander Siloti, who was Tchaikovsky's music editor, had a hand in Piano Concerto No. 1, and - one might be inclined to suspect - more than a hand in some of the other piano compositions.

Whatever, PT's piano writing makes me either sleepy or nauseous...there's something fundamentally wrong there. So far I have not heard ANY piano piece by him that I could enjoy, including the concertos which I have suffered through quite a few times.

[michael_sayers]

Whatever, PT's piano writing makes me either sleepy or nauseous...there's something fundamentally wrong there. So far I have not heard ANY piano piece by him that I could enjoy, including the concertos which I have suffered through quite a few times.

Hi Outin,

I guess what I am wondering is, do you have any issues with Alexander's Siloti's transcriptions for piano?  There are some things about them I am not happy with, and these same types of issues don't appear in Tchaikovsky's The Seasons suite and the piano concertos, or at least not as obviously.  But in those situations Siloti would have been working with Tchaikovsky very closely to get a result that would satisfy both him and Tchaikovsky [or maybe not always working with him - "Here is June for your suite, all finished, never mind that I borrowed from Anton Rubinstein for it . . . " ], and not more remotely transcribing music.


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

In the case of PC1, "a hand" is something of an understatement.

As regards the rest, he'd probably sue over your suggestion of complicity.

I don't think Mr. Tchaikovsky is in a situation at present that would allow him to file the accusation with a court.


Mvh,
Michael

[outin]

Hi Outin,

I guess what I am wondering is, do you have any issues with Alexander's Siloti's transcriptions for piano?  

I really don't know because I haven't really listened to them... I don't generally have much taste for Romantic transcriptions...

[alistaircrane4]

Whatever, PT's piano writing makes me either sleepy or nauseous...there's something fundamentally wrong there. So far I have not heard ANY piano piece by him that I could enjoy, including the concertos which I have suffered through quite a few times.

I agree I use most for research purposes. I only really like his Romance Op.5 and Dumka Op.59 in his piano output. The rest are just his songs and waltzes.

[michael_sayers]

I agree I use most for research purposes. I only really like his Romance Op.5 and Dumka Op.59 in his piano output. The rest are just his songs and waltzes.

Do you not like this one?

Mvh,
Michael

[outin]

Do you not like this one?

I know you didn't ask me, but that piece was a good example of one that makes me feel instant physical uncomfort.

I think I might have some form of synesthesia, because I often get very vivid physical like sensations from music inside my brain. It's not in any way connected to emotional content of music, but rather to the rhythm, tonal charachter or intervallic content. Can be either pleasant or inpleasant.