AAAARRRRGHH! My baby's broken!!! Advice anyone?

[JimDunlop]

Ok... Today, I'm officially bummed!         

My digital piano broke! 

Any advice would be much appreciated....  Before anything else, let me explain the situation a little.  1. I live in Japan...  Hence, everything is a little difficult around here -- especially "repairing" stuff in a disposable society.  Once I asked someone where I could find a TV repair shop and they just laughed at me.  2.  The piano is old, and no warranty.  So, whatever I do will have a price attached to it.

Please look at the attached photo link.  As you can see, the balast arm underneath the key has broke off.  The balast itself is a solid piece of heavy steel and the arm is brittle plastic (not a good design, is it?)  Oh, and please excuse the crappy quality pic.  My good digital camera (the one that has a decent macro mode) wasn't readily available... I had to use a crappy one.



I think I could get away with jury-rigging it with some glue -- I don't know what to use....  I don't want to use superglue -- I don't think it's very good.  Maybe some kind of epoxy?

Also, I would like to contact Roland.... Do you think they could provide me with a replacement balast arm?  Could a local repair shop or Roland dealership acquire such a part?

Finally, since I already had the piano apart, I examined other balasts -- and ALL (no kidding -- all 88 keys) have some degree of cracked plastic on the balast.  Maybe I could use some kind of glue to reinforce the balasts before any more break off...  As far as I can tell, it's only a matter of time.

BTW, the piano is a Roland HP2800.

Thanks y'all.

JD

PS.  Wish me luck!

[mound]

Perhaps some strong epoxy?

You could also try calling the Roland Parts Department and see if they have any that you could order.

-Paul

[Ed Thomas]

Can you post clearer pictures when you get your camera back?  I can't tell if there is enough room to drill and tap, or if the plastic is so deteriorated that it wouldn't work anyway.  Regardless, my first effort would be to do as Mound said and contact Roland.  Since it is clearly a design flaw, they may have a solution or replacement parts.   Do you know its age?  I have an FP-1.  If it has the same action, I'll open mine up and see if some ideas occur to me.

I did a quick check of the Roland web site www.roland.com and neither your piano nor mine is listed... probably too old.   It looks like you are supposed to go to the specific country's web site.  I can't read Japanese, so I looked on the USA site...

https://www.rolandus.com/support/

They have some directions for getting support, and a phone number for parts.  Maybe there is an equivalent over there. 

My thinking is that if the plastic is strong enough, you might be able to drill through the plastic and into the weight.  If you tap threads in the weight, then you could attach the weight mechanically.  In other words, it might not be the plastic that deteriorated, but rather the chemical action of the glue at the connection between the weight and the arm that made that part of the plastic brittle.  It's a long shot, but worth checking.

[chickering9]

Can you post clearer pictures when you get your camera back?  I can't tell if there is enough room to drill and tap, or if the plastic is so deteriorated that it wouldn't work anyway.  ...My thinking is that if the plastic is strong enough, you might be able to drill through the plastic and into the weight.  If you tap threads in the weight, then you could attach the weight mechanically.  In other words, it might not be the plastic that deteriorated, but rather the chemical action of the glue at the connection between the weight and the arm that made that part of the plastic brittle.  It's a long shot, but worth checking.

When I first read about your problem and looked at the picture, I also thought that would be my first choice for a repair that might have some chance of being permanent.  Nylon just does not glue very well.  I've repaired similar problems in car door lock mechanisms with similar fractures by drilling and screwing.  Glue simply never held with nylon.  It would require a very small bit and a steady hand and very small screws, but it could be done.  Since you've noted that most of the others show signs of cracking, it seems like even replacement parts would eventually show the same problem, unless Roland has an alternate design that evolved to address the problem.

[JimDunlop]

Actually, funny you should mention that.... about Roland maybe having re-engineered the part....   Because they did....  I contacted Roland Canada (PLEADING them not to just dismiss my e-mail by telling me to contact Roland in Japan.... )

As an aside, Japanese customer service is completely USELESS!  The entire conversation is spent in "super-polite mode" where it takes 5 minutes just to say "pardon me."  It's more like: "This is completely inexcusable, most honorable one, and I know I'm being terribly rude by asking for your assistance, but would you please be kind to me and offer a reply to the question that I'm so humbly about to ask?"

Anyway, I digress.  Yes, Roland HAS re-engineered this design.  They just returned my e-mail (quickly too, I might add) and advised that I replace all 88 "key hammers" (that's what they're called) with the improved ones as soon as possible.  Now I'm trying to work out the cost and feasibility of this exercise.

I tried Roland Japan (because Roland Canada said they will not ship parts overseas) and when I called, I was told "no way."  Apparently my request doesn't follow the "Roland Concept" which neccesitates having a super-human Roland Technician be dispatched from Tokyo all the way to my home in another prefecture, and he, and only he, with his skillful, surgically-steady hands, will replace the hammers.... For an ungodly, exorbitant cost too, I might add.  (You think I could ooze any more sarcasm here?)  Well, you can imagine that I told them what I thought of THAT idea....  So, I'm requesting Roland Canada to get me a price so I can ship it to a Canadian address.  I'm more than capable and willing to do the work myself, especially seeing that the piano isn't under warranty anyway.

In the mean time, not having a piano to play on (especially when you're supposed to have a performance in 2 days) is like being a skiier with two broken legs.  So, I went to the hardware store, picked out the most expensive "superglue" made for bonding metal to plastic that I could find, and laid it on....  I reinforced one hammer that looked like it had maybe another day to live, and the one that was completely broken.  The glue seeped into the gap between the plastic and metal, spreading a fine film over most of the surface.  I let everything dry for 24 hours, and just finished examining my work... It looks quite solid.  I'm sure it's likely going to be more brittle now, but it seems to have bonded very well -- in fact, better than I expected.

So, I've reassembled the piano with the repaired hammers and just finished testing it out with some pieces.  It feels right -- no different than any other key, and quite solid.  So, for now, I'm happy.  But likely during the winter holidays, I'll take the time to either replace all the hammers (if Roland gives me a favorable reply) or reinforce them all to hopefully avoid future breakage.

[chickering9]

I thought they might have re-engineered that part simply because the evidence of the cracking on several would indicate a design issue that must be common to the model.  I'd be curious what the parts cost for all 88 would be. 

If the price for replacement parts is unreasonable, one thing I thought about is using a very heavy bit of foil cut in a strip, coated with glue and wrapped around the hammer like a bandage to reinforce the broken joint--perhaps long enough for two full wraps.  I broke one hammer on my old small grand right at the point where the shank center pin went through the thinnest part right at the flange where the shank pivots up--a point that takes a lot of shock when the hammer hits the strings.  I used a strip of that heavy foil one finds now applied to the top of vacuum sealed coffee cans and brushed super glue on one side, then wrapped that around the two pieces tightly and conforming the foil to the parts tightly.  After allowing that to dry, I pounded the heck out of that hammer.  It held.  And such a thin bit of aluminum and glue wouldn't add significantly to the weight.  And while the foil is significantly thicker than ordinary aluminum foil, it's still quite compressible and will conform easily to an irregular surface underneath and it's very strong.  (I'd recommend disposable polyethylene gloves for handling and the same type of glue you used and I'd probably brush the glue on only the start of the strip first, apply that section to get a start for the first wrap, then apply glue to the rest with a brush a short section at a time while wrapping and conforming as you go around.)

[JimDunlop]

Interesting fix....  I'll have to remember that...  Tinfoil bandages...

However in my case it wouldn't work.  the hammers, in order to be removed and replaced, must slide through a solid metal grate...  The slits in the grate are made to accomodate the EXACT width of the hammer head.  The clearance on either side is so small, even adding a 1/2 milimeter would make it too big to fit.  In fact, just a few drops of glue was ALMOST too much, and I would have had to sand things down.

FYI, Roland key hammers (from Canada) cost $4.00 apiece.  There are two different types, depending on whether you want a natural or sharp key hammer.  However, if you order an entire set of 88, the price drops to $2.00 per, so the price is $176 CDN plus tax and shipping.

At the moment, since I've temporarily fixed my piano, will hold off on this repair.  I had a performance last night and have another next week, so I MUST have something to practice on.

Cheers,

JD

[chickering9]

That price for a whole set is not bad, especially if the re-engineered version lasts.  Sounds like the only good long-term solution.  If a half millimeter clearance is all you have to deal with, you don't have much choice, whether epoxy or other, unless you can apply with it already in place. 

[whartman]

FYI, Roland key hammers (from Canada) cost $4.00 apiece.  There are two different types, depending on whether you want a natural or sharp key hammer.  However, if you order an entire set of 88, the price drops to $2.00 per, so the price is $176 CDN plus tax and shipping.

At the moment, since I've temporarily fixed my piano, will hold off on this repair.  I had a performance last night and have another next week, so I MUST have something to practice on.

Hi,

As I have a similar problem with my HP2800 I am very interested in how your problem was fixed. Have you finally got the hammers and exchanged them? Are they really better then originals?

Wojtek Hartman from Poland.