digital pianos & action

[CJHoward]

 Hey all, of course I'm new here, been browsing for  a few hours. I've noticed a few posts, refering to the inferior action of digital pianos(pianii ??). Anyway, I'm getting the feeling, that the common beleif, is that none of them are good enough, even though there are many here who don't like the action of their real Piano.

So the question, is it safe to assume the best "action" of a digital piano at this time is still not as good/preferrable as the worst action of an acoustic piano??

[RJones]

The actions on modern digital pianos are absolutely amazing!! I encourage you to try the Yamaha CLP-170, CLP-175, CVP-309, or Roland HPi7, HP-107 and I believe you will find it rivals the very best actions on acoustic pianos (upright or grand).

[Floristan]

I have a Yamaha P120 with weighted keys, and it does a very good job of simulating the feel of an acoustic grand, but it is still not quite the same.  The weight is about right, but there is no feeling of the actual mechanism (wippen) lifting the hammer -- plus on an acoustic, the keys bottom out on felt punchings which give a little (it's called aftertouch).  Digital keyboards have no aftertouch, so the bottom of the keystroke is hard and unyielding, which isn't great if you're prone to tendonitis or carpal tunnel, etc.

So, in my opinion, the best digitals are very good approximations but still not quite there.

[timothy42b]

I have a Yamaha P120 with weighted keys, and it does a very good job of simulating the feel of an acoustic grand, but it is still not quite the same.  The
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So, in my opinion, the best digitals are very good approximations but still not quite there.

You're probably right, but I think you are comparing digitals to a well maintained high quality grand. 

Maybe it would be more fair to compare digitals to the average upright, which may or may have even been tuned lately, and likely not been kept in top shape by a skilled piano tech. 

I bet if you compared the average modern digital to the average acoustic piano, the edge might go to the digital. 

[CJHoward]

Maybe it would be more fair to compare digitals to the average upright, which may or may have even been tuned lately, and likely not been kept in top shape by a skilled piano tech. 

I bet if you compared the average modern digital to the average acoustic piano, the edge might go to the digital. 

Right, this is my question. There will of course be some adjustment going from an upright/DigiPiano to a Grand. Is there more adjustment neccessary going from the DigiPiano, as oppossed to the upright?

Like many other newbies here, I'm looking to buy a Piano for a new young student. I don't plan on getting a Grand piano in any event. Uprights and DPs both have plusses and minus. I know this question has been asked, but technology provides reason to redress it from time to time.

[xvimbi]

To answer your original question: A good digital action is absolutely preferable to a bad acoustic action. There can't be any doubt.

[mound]

I use a Roland RD-700 digital piano, and the action is absolutely amazing. To me, it feels almost exactly like the Yamaha grand I play on at my lesson.  The weight and feel of the keys are absolutely not an issue.  Absolutely a good digital will feel and probably sound better than an old upright.

Now, the sound of a digital is another story all together.. My Roland does a pretty good job, I am 95% happy, though I play it through good studio monitors in an acoustically treated room. The samples are all high quality, and you do get a certain degree of the overtones ringing.. Sounds very good in fact and for 95% of the work I'm doing on it (learning repertoir, basic technique work) it's actually quite suitable.

But as of late I'm noticing that much of the detailed technique/articulation work I do with my teacher on the acoustic grand I just can't quite translate.. The "feel" of an acoustic  where you can actually "pull sound out" of the strings, and "feathering" the pedal etc. etc... Even advanced velocity sensitivity in a digital can only come close,  in the sound produced.. but it's not there.. and then there's the issue of sound coming from two speakers, rather than enveloping you from all directions as your body vibrates as well!

which is why inspite of the fact that I have a high-end digital, which is great for practice, great for portability, great for headphones late at night, great for all the other instrument samples it's got for compositional purposes, I am beginning the consideration process for an actual grand.

-Paul

[JimDunlop]

I have a Yamaha P120 with weighted keys, and it does a very good job of simulating the feel of an acoustic grand, but it is still not quite the same.  The weight is about right, but there is no feeling of the actual mechanism (wippen) lifting the hammer -- plus on an acoustic, the keys bottom out on felt punchings which give a little (it's called aftertouch).  Digital keyboards have no aftertouch, so the bottom of the keystroke is hard and unyielding, which isn't great if you're prone to tendonitis or carpal tunnel, etc.

So, in my opinion, the best digitals are very good approximations but still not quite there.

Having just ripped apart my Roland HP2800  (it's about 10 years old) I can comment a little on this.  The feel is VERY realistic.  The design (if not the engineering) is quite ingenious, so you ARE actually lifting a hammer when you depress a key, and the hammer ends up pushing against a felt barrier, resulting in this "aftertouch" you are referring to.  What differentiates my digital Roland from the action on an accoustic is that with the latter, a felt hammer strikes strings.  In the case of the digital, it's not a string being struck, but an electronic pickup pad -- not unlike the pressure-sensitive rubber pads you see on digital drum sets.  All of this put together results in a fantastic "feel" without the hard "clunk" at the bottom of your key press.
 
The only thing that is missing is the vibration.  On an accoustic piano, some of the tone actually vibrates through the frame and key, into your fingers and arms.  This, however I understand has also been replicated in a specific model series of (I THINK Yamaha -- but don't quote me on that)....

[CJHoward]

  I just want to apologize for this thread, even though we are getting into some good discussion. I originally posted after doing a search, then reading a couple of the threads. Since then I have read many more threads, and found my original opinion not to be the case.

[VancouverPiano]

Hey all, of course I'm new here, been browsing for  a few hours. I've noticed a few posts, refering to the inferior action of digital pianos(pianii ??). Anyway, I'm getting the feeling, that the common beleif, is that none of them are good enough, even though there are many here who don't like the action of their real Piano.

So the question, is it safe to assume the best "action" of a digital piano at this time is still not as good/preferrable as the worst action of an acoustic piano??

In my humble opinion, The BEST digital piano action can begin to even rival the best Grand Piano actions available.
Before anyone goes jumping on me for this statement let me justify what I have just said!
I currently own a great deal of Roland gear for both live use and home use. For my primary home piano I have a brand new Roland HP107! The touch is absolutely amazing! What I would consider to be the absolute optimum for a digital piano.  I have tried many different makes and models and it seems to me that the Progressive Hammer Action in the HP107 most closely resembles the touch of the Steinways and Prambergers that I was actually comparing the touch to.  I was lucky enough to find a retailer that stocked both the digital models I was looking for and the Grands for a comparison in touch right there in store. 
Again in my humble opinion what swayed me was the fact that the escapement let off mechanism in the keyboard of the HP107 felt completely natural when compared with both Grand Pianos! This was playing Beethovens Moonlight Sonata and Oscar Peterson's Hymn to Freedom at varying dynamics and tempos to get a feeling of how each keyboard would respond to my touch. The experience was transparent! I was flabbergasted! What I am looking forward to most, is NOT EVER HAVING TO HAVE THE KEYBED REGULATED!
My $0.02
 

[MarkAllison]

I have a Yamaha U3 upright and love the touch, feel, sound, pretty much everything about it. I also recently bought a Yamaha CL-120 and, I have to say I'm disappointed with it. The feel of the keys is NOTHING LIKE a real piano. Yes, they are weighted, graded, blah, blah, but when I play my digipiano I always come away feeling cheated.

My fingers tend to slip off the black keys more on the digi than the acoustic, and I presume its because they have plastic keys. Maybe I should have tried a digi with wooden keys. I'm considering taking it back to the shop. So, I think you have to try the digi pianos for yourself and find out if you're happy - many people are. And don't rush your buying decision, spend a bit of time playing with both digis and acoustics and try different manufacturers. I hope you don't make the same mistake I did, buying too hastily.

Mark.

[Floristan]

But as of late I'm noticing that much of the detailed technique/articulation work I do with my teacher on the acoustic grand I just can't quite translate.. The "feel" of an acoustic where you can actually "pull sound out" of the strings, and "feathering" the pedal etc. etc... Even advanced velocity sensitivity in a digital can only come close, in the sound produced.. but it's not there.. and then there's the issue of sound coming from two speakers, rather than enveloping you from all directions as your body vibrates as well!

which is why inspite of the fact that I have a high-end digital, which is great for practice, great for portability, great for headphones late at night, great for all the other instrument samples it's got for compositional purposes, I am beginning the consideration process for an actual grand.
-Paul

This is my experience as well.  My piano is being rebuilt and so is out of commission for a while, but all these details that Paul describes, like advanced velocity sensitivity -- I experience these things in the same way.  My digital is very, very good, but there are a few, very particular things it just can't replicate.  At least the sustaining pedal on my Yahama allows for half-pedaling, so it simulates a real sustaining pedal very well (allowing "feathering" or close to it), but the una corde pedal is just a "soft" pedal that is either on or off.  You can adjust the degree of softness, but there's no half- or quarter-pedaling like you can do on an acoustic.

[gerry]

This is my experience as well.  My piano is being rebuilt and so is out of commission for a while, but all these details that Paul describes, like advanced velocity sensitivity -- I experience these things in the same way.  My digital is very, very good, but there are a few, very particular things it just can't replicate.  At least the sustaining pedal on my Yahama allows for half-pedaling, so it simulates a real sustaining pedal very well (allowing "feathering" or close to it), but the una corde pedal is just a "soft" pedal that is either on or off.  You can adjust the degree of softness, but there's no half- or quarter-pedaling like you can do on an acoustic.

Floristan: I realize this is a very old thread but you might find this amusing. Like you, I recently had work done on my piano - Bosie 225  (hammers, bushings, etc.) As I stared at this gaping maw in my living room, I suddenly had a brilliant idea. Could it be possible that my Yamaha PF100 might fit in the space? I took measurements and to my amazement it looked possible. I lifted it up and it slid perfectly in as if it was made for the space! I guess the extra width for the added lower keys made it possibleas there was hardly 1/4" tolerance at the sides or above. As a result, I was able to sit at my grand and practice for the duration. The juxtaposition was so absurd, I chuckled every time I sat down to practice. It really helped ease the pain, the pain.