Alkan etude for LTCL?

[lecafe88]

Hi all, I'd like to know if Alkan's Op 35. No 7 (Fire in the Neighboring Village) is a suitable piece for me to tackle, as I'd like to add it to a diploma programme (LTCL), but as it's not in the syllabus, I don't know if this is an LTCL/FTCL standard piece.  I've looked at the score, musically it doesn't seem too challenging as it seems quite vertical except for the programme music nature of the piece. Is this piece a suitable addition for my technical ability? The other parts of my proposed programme include:

Beethoven Op 31 No.2 Tempest
Rachmaninov Prelude in G minor
Debussy (Images II) "Cloches a Travers les feuilles)

I'm just concerned that if I add the Alkan this combination may just be too overwhelmingly romantic, and I've omitted the Baroque period entirely. However, I just can't get my head around baroque music and I feel that if I tried to stick it into a programme I would end up butchering it. Debussy, Alkan and Rachmaninov are completely different styles anyway.

Thanks in advance

[j_menz]

I don't know if this is an LTCL/FTCL standard piece. 

It certainly should be.

Is this piece a suitable addition for my technical ability?

I would have thought a step up.

I'm just concerned that if I add the Alkan this combination may just be too overwhelmingly romantic, and I've omitted the Baroque period entirely.

If you manage the polyphony in the Alkan you should be fine, If you don't, well it's a mistake anyway.

[lecafe88]

It certainly should be.

I would have thought a step up.

If you manage the polyphony in the Alkan you should be fine, If you don't, well it's a mistake anyway.

Thanks for the quick reply. I'm just not sure if it it's closer to LTCL or FTCL. If it's the latter, I may have to reconsider. Technically it's probably LTCL, but I don't know if musically so. The melody is really lovely though, I don't think I'll get bored practicing this for hours  

As far as the technical difficulty is concerned my main concern is the big LH chords in the fast section. I can stretch a tenth but only with 3 notes (e.g. CGE). Is missing a note here or there acceptable so long as it doesn't compromise the spirit of the piece? I have weaker LH runs but chords are fine so I tend to avoid LH heavy pieces, and this doesn't seem like one. I find the RH of my other 3 pieces very easy.

So long as the polyphony is 2-3 voices I should manage. Something like 5 voices (e.g. Bach C sharp minor 849) is really difficulty for me.

[j_menz]

Alkan can be a bit funny to play if you haven't experienced him much before. Some things are deceptively easier than expected, and some things rather much more difficult. Full of surprises.

I'd strongly suggest you actually play through the score before deciding on it. You may be pleasantly surprised. You may also be in for quite a shock.

[diomedes]

From my limited experience, the adjudicators aren't impressed with ambitious gestures. I'm not familiar with that Alkan, but the implication is obvious. I played the quasi Faust for the LTCL along with Op.110 and they really didn't care for it, 7 voice fugue and all. In hindsight i should have played the tempest and something like Estamps, they obviously prefer things played exactly right. I wasn't well prepared, personal life was a chapter in the life of Liszt and i was 30 years old so it was extremely obvious i had no choice but to play the Alkan 30 ans. Certainly was fun.

But if you want to do it, you probably should give it a shot. But if i were you i'd start learning the Alkan right away.

[lecafe88]

From my limited experience, the adjudicators aren't impressed with ambitious gestures. I'm not familiar with that Alkan, but the implication is obvious. I played the quasi Faust for the LTCL along with Op.110 and they really didn't care for it, 7 voice fugue and all. In hindsight i should have played the tempest and something like Estamps, they obviously prefer things played exactly right. I wasn't well prepared, personal life was a chapter in the life of Liszt and i was 30 years old so it was extremely obvious i had no choice but to play the Alkan 30 ans. Certainly was fun.

But if you want to do it, you probably should give it a shot. But if i were you i'd start learning the Alkan right away.

They let you do the Op 110 for LTCL? I'd had thought that pieces like La Campanella on the LTCL list will be more of a showpiece than this Alkan is. After all, only 3 out of 10 minutes or so is the flashy dramatic section, I believe I can show more than technique with the music. On that note, do examiners get really fed up with "famous pieces"? I'd imagine the Tempest and G minor prelude are played quite a few times, but I do have the Debussy to balance it out (and it's quite a gem in my opinion).

In any case I'm just looking for a piece that add to my programme to make it to 37-43 minutes. My Tempest is at 20 minutes, Rachmaninov at 4.5, and Debussy at 4.5 minutes. Other ideas are welcome, this Alkan is just one of my proposals.

[symphonicdance]

I'm neither a teacher nor a professional.  I just happened to complete both LT and FT by self-learning.

There are plenty of choices on the syllabus already.  A candidate won't get scored higher because he/she is playing a piece (or more) that is on the syllabus of a higher diploma level.  On the contrary, the more difficult the piece, the riskier as the candidate may make more mistakes. 

Your pieces by Beethoven, Rachmaninoff and Debussy are quite difficult already.  Why make your programme very very challenging.  Remember the marking scheme : technical 30%, musical 30%, communication 30%, presentation 10%.  I would focus on musical and communication more.  Remember the exam fee is not cheap (at least in this part of the world).

It is stipulated on the guidelines that candidate should present a balanced programme, and indeed I think you should actually consider baroque, american/latin american, spanish, or a very modern work to as your 4th piece.

Good luck.

[diomedes]

You can do anything you like for the LTCL, play the Gaspard if you like, but it better be perfect. You just need to get it pre approved by writing to them.

I just had a look at 35/7, that's some serious program music. 1st thing it made me think of was the 2nd Chopin Ballade, but with originality of it's own. I never looked at the op.35 set, clearly i should because i'll find a few things of interest along with this.

Anyway, I'd only comment that you avoid letting technical preoccupations and other demands get in the way of preparing a sonata to professional standard, which is what happened to me. And all the fugues really made it all worse. But if you can shoulder something like that in stride, go ahead, but they won't really make a big deal out of the extra effort.

Or you could add another Debussy prelude and a Chopin Scherzo or Ballade.

[lecafe88]

You can do anything you like for the LTCL, play the Gaspard if you like, but it better be perfect. You just need to get it pre approved by writing to them.

I just had a look at 35/7, that's some serious program music. 1st thing it made me think of was the 2nd Chopin Ballade, but with originality of it's own. I never looked at the op.35 set, clearly i should because i'll find a few things of interest along with this.

Anyway, I'd only comment that you avoid letting technical preoccupations and other demands get in the way of preparing a sonata to professional standard, which is what happened to me. And all the fugues really made it all worse. But if you can shoulder something like that in stride, go ahead, but they won't really make a big deal out of the extra effort.

Or you could add another Debussy prelude and a Chopin Scherzo or Ballade.

Interesting that you use the phrase "preparing a sonata to a professional standard". While I'm aware that LTCL is designed to be equivalent to a 3rd year music student's performance standard, I don't know how close to professional that standard is, or if it actually is pretty much professional.

Take my playing of the Tempest or the Debussy for example: It wouldn't be something I'd call professional standard, but I'd be proud to perform it in a masterclass or in any public recital. Is that attitude "good enough" to shoot for an LTCL diploma?

I understand that I shouldn't let technical problems stop me from perfecting a piece so I should pick "easier" pieces to play properly. Is every piece on the LTCL syllabus equally weighted then? (Tempest is frankly, quite easy compared to other LVB LTCL sonatas like 2/3, 7, 10/3, 31/1, 81a, technically speaking,but this doesn't get looked down upon by examiners right?)

 

 

[diomedes]

With the Sonatas of Beethoven, to me it appears like they want all score indications observed, and they'll nudge you pretty hard on stuff like pedalling (which surprised me). My impression is they just want something very proper. I'll add they tend not to complain much at all about wrong notes, which surprised me.

As for their response to repertoire, i have no clue. To me, it just looks like they want very proper playing. I also agree, Op.31/2 is rather easy in general. I've been having very serious thoughts about returning to giving recitals again, i'll be hoping to do one this summer and to ease into it i've already settled on Beethoven 31/2 and Debussy Estamps. Not because they're easy, but i sincerely love those pieces and they make imo perfect music for an audience willing to listen. That they are not demanding is just better for everyone.

Oh, and consider renting a tux. They were real jerks about the dress code, cost me quite a few marks.

[symphonicdance]

In this part of the world, about 50% chance that a candidate will get a "piano major" examiner for AT and LT, although for FT, definitely, at least one of the examiners is a piano expert.

Beethoven Tempest may not be technically most challenging, but don't under estimate it from musical sense and communication perspectives.  Take a look at Barenboim master class on this sonata (1st movement only, unfortunately), and see you would have new thoughts about your playing.

Again, why make your live very difficult, unless you aim at a result 90+ marks, that you want to really impress the examiner and you are absolutely confident with a convincing delivery.

[sabtan]

In this part of the world, about 50% chance that a candidate will get a "piano major" examiner for AT and LT, although for FT, definitely, at least one of the examiners is a piano expert.

Beethoven Tempest may not be technically most challenging, but don't under estimate it from musical sense and communication perspectives.  Take a look at Barenboim master class on this sonata (1st movement only, unfortunately), and see you would have new thoughts about your playing.

Again, why make your live very difficult, unless you aim at a result 90+ marks, that you want to really impress the examiner and you are absolutely confident with a convincing delivery.

Must say I do agree with symphonicdance. It's all about the execution of the pieces, not how bizzarely fantastic they are.
You can choose a piece like Ravel's Gaspard, but if you don't execute it well it'll come to nothing.

If Bach is not something of a favourite, what about Scarlatti?? They have some pretty interesting selections for LTCL.

[sabtan]

I might add I initially thought I didn't like baroque music either.

I chose the Bach toccatta because it was the only one that seemed less demanding than others.
Keyword: seemed

And when I actually tackled it, it was frustrating. I was rushing through it, didn't breathe at the phrases, was rushing through the cadences. I was frustrated, my teacher was frustrated. Was a nightmare.
I then asked other people's opinions on my recording, and finally understood where phrases should sit.
Went back to square one, started real slow practice.

And now I actually enjoy it. It may not be one of my strong suits esp like my romantic pieces, but I can say I don't hate it now. Teacher also noticed marked improvements. I may play it at a slower tempo than most recordings, but it's okay. As long as I get to execute it right.

So my point is, don't discount pieces just because you think you don't like them. Once you play through it you might enjoy it in the process.

[michael_sayers]

I'v never understood why the lists of works to choose from in various circumstances is always so short, when there or many hundreds - if not thousands - of piano compositions that are worth preparing.


Mvh,
Michael

[thorn]

As far as the technical difficulty is concerned my main concern is the big LH chords in the fast section. I can stretch a tenth but only with 3 notes (e.g. CGE). Is missing a note here or there acceptable so long as it doesn't compromise the spirit of the piece?

In public performances pianists cleverly omit/redistribute notes all of the time (take one of my favourites Alicia de Larrocha for example). However in an exam I'd advise against playing anything you can't get completely on top of. Forget what syllabus it falls on and forget the date on the score. Just play to your strengths.

I am a firm believer in stepping outside of your comfort zone but is an (expensive) exam really the time or the place?  If you don't want to play Baroque, don't play Baroque. Play all Romantic if you want, just make sure you present different technical challenges, moods, lengths etc.

The program/program notes/dress part of the mark scheme is worth 10%. Where this attitude that concerning yourself with the 10% trumps the other 90% has come from is beyond me.

If entrants are presenting repertoire on a "pieces I don't hate that were written in that century" basis, no wonder so many people fail this exam...

[j_menz]

If entrants are presenting repertoire on a "pieces I don't hate that were written in that century" basis, no wonder so many people fail this exam...

True. Though I suspect more people fail due to "pieces I don't hate that are really (reputed to be) hard" and who scrape through the notes without offering any better excuse then "I (think I) can play this".

[diomedes]

In this part of the world, about 50% chance that a candidate will get a "piano major" examiner for AT and LT, although for FT, definitely, at least one of the examiners is a piano expert.

Beethoven Tempest may not be technically most challenging, but don't under estimate it from musical sense and communication perspectives.  Take a look at Barenboim master class on this sonata (1st movement only, unfortunately), and see you would have new thoughts about your playing.

Again, why make your live very difficult, unless you aim at a result 90+ marks, that you want to really impress the examiner and you are absolutely confident with a convincing delivery.

Recently just moved so I had to open and close boxes with belongings in them, wasn't sure if I had it but guess what I found, the DVD with baremboims masterclass on it. I'm very glad you mentioned that, he's always valuable to listen to.

[symphonicdance]

I suggest those who feel they have hard times in Bach's WTC, Bach's and Handel's suites (particularly the fugues) continue to tackle them during their practice / leisure time.  Not necessary for exam though.

If you can't KO them in Associate or Licientitate Diploma level, you will have much harder times in Fellowship level.  Even if you are not picking the Bach, Bach-Busoni pieces on the fellowship syllabus, there are so many pieces on the syllabus that have multi-voices weaving in the structure which the candidate needs to sound and balance them, not to mention that the last movements of some on-syllabus sonatas are actually fugues.