IMHO... flawless technique is all very fine, and everyone should aspire to it. I certainly haven't reached it yet!But... flawless technique without soul is absolutely worthless.
But... flawless technique without soul is absolutely worthless.
Nature doesn't give everyone a gun. Those with guns don't All get the same gun.Those w the same gun don't all get the same number of bullets or type of bullet(s)
Y'alls murricanness is showing.
Since you are expecting Czerny exercises to give you great technical ability, I don't see why you would expect the more difficult of them to be any less demanding then a Chopin etude. Czerny's actual music is certainly no easier than Chopin's, and his exercises, if nothing else, would at least be directed towards enabling you to play that.
We see this in professional sports. There are highly gifted natural athletes that will be better than many others who do train and practice much more. Doesn't matter how hard you train a donkey, it won't run like a thoroughbred (horse), even a horse that is not put through same conditioningIt is highly probable that at that level , you would see the same pianists on thy stage and performing to that extent even without czerny.
I think they just want to cheer themselves up by denying the fundamental value of technique to artistry. The truth is actually - there is no artistry without decent technique.
1) Every art form has its own individual technique, however, the modern conservatory approach to playing the piano is obsessed with it, in my opinion.
The human body, and it associated hand, has the same musculoskeletal structure for all!
Execution A, Artistry F.Please endeavour to have both!
I assume you don't really mean what you wrote above? That's like saying there's only one painting technique?
Yes, we do indeed. And this thread is about the first. Beyond that, e.g. Czerny op 740 etudes are beautiful pieces. Once one is able to play them (they are difficult) they can show the players artistry. Apart from that, artistry is not WHAT you play, but HOW. Louispodesta, if one cannot play Czerny applying Taubman approach then Tubman approach is really missing something. Louispodesta, I agree with Outin in this point. You seem to think that the methodology you are using is teaching the only possible, correct way of playing. Well, many teachers and methodologies teach what are the principles of Taubman teachings, that is playing taking into consideration the physiology of human body. It is nothing new really. Taubman approach simply names those things clear and makes it look like if she invented them.
1) In his memoir, Earl Wild, who had a gargantuan technique (who I used to call every year on his birthday, late in his life) stated that, by an large, traditional technique exercises, including scales, arpeggios, and the like, are pointless. However, he did state that certain the Czerny exercises can have a major benefit.2) The difference between Thomas Mark and the rest of the Taubman alumni is that HE DOES NOT BELIEVE THAT ONE SIZE FITS ALL!!! When one sits down for a coaching session with this man for the first time, after a few minutes you just sit their quietly in absolute wonderment as to how well he has put it all together in terms of piano technique. Accordingly, the point of my original response is that Thomas Mark, myself, and the late Earl Wild put forth that there is no traditional Russian/Chinese magic bullet to achieving facility at the piano. And, that is in sharp contrast to the way I was originally taught along with all of the others who continue to cow-tow to the traditional conservatory approach to gaining a solid piano technique.
The foundation of music education is laid down long before an aspiring student sets foot in a conservatoire. At its core is a network of specialist music schools all over the territory of the former Soviet Union. The syllabus at these schools is uniform whether you are studying in Moscow, Saint Petersburg, Kiev, or Yerevan. One normally enters such a school around the age of seven and, if the young musician is lucky to survive the tough competition, remains there for 11 years. Out of the 27 pupils enrolled in my first year, only four original pupils reached the final semester. Alongside normal academic subjects, there are obligatory subjects such as music theory, analysis, harmony, solfeggio (sol-fa), rhythm and music literature, as well as regular instrumental classes. That in itself is not so unique – children study these subjects in the West as well – it’s the rigour with which we were made to study these disciplines that is different.I still remember a rhythm class when I was eight years old. One of the exercises was to listen to a tune in 3/4 time played by the accompanist, sing the melodic line in unison, while tapping the rhythm with your feet and conducting in 3/4 time with one hand and in 4/4 time twice as slowly with the other.In the solfeggio class, amongst other tasks, we were made to write down quite complex dictations in one, two, three and four parts within 10-15 minutes, listen to and recognise chains of intervals played at high speed, analyse and recognise after one hearing long harmonic progressions, and conduct and sing at sight and in real tempo Bach’s and Shostakovich’s fugues. The class was divided into several groups according to our vocal range. I still vividly remember singing at a rather vigorous pace Shostakovich’s Fugue No 3 in G major in this manner. Swingle Singers, move over!
"At least according to this article, there is no magic bullet to Russian pedagogy. It's a combination of attrition of those who make the cut and simply hard work toward developing fluency is basic musicianship at a young age that in the US is often ignored until the post-secondary level."At a very young age, taught by example from my father, all I did was play stupid exercises (which I pointlessly continued to do into my 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's)!No, sir, it is not "hard work," which makes the difference. It is instead a proper kinesiology approach to having the human body efficiently play this instrument. That is what a certified Alexander Technique Coach by the name of Thomas Mark teaches.If it was left up to hard work, with great teachers along the way, I would have attained my goals decades ago. As it is, with my recent psoriatic arthritis flare-up (which was preceded by my accidental right thumb dislocation), I would not be finishing up my memorizing of the Debussy Fantasy and the 1st Movement of the Rach 2nd.Go figure, for someone who will next month be 64!
It's not always about physical issues. The article was talking about musicianship skills, not technical exercises.
Hi Louis,I am fond of the Op. 740 and think it is artistically above Op. 299 and Op. 365.Mvh,Michael
Thank you for your comment, but everyone keeps missing my original point, which is:1) These exercises were written for pure wooden sound board pianofortes which in no way have the same keyboard resistance of a modern grand, and 2) Why does one have to go through this routine at all? Accordingly, I will share with you something I wrote to in a private message having to do with speed practice.It has to do with the concept of direct keyboard tactile touch at an extremely slow tempo and then morphing this into a Rachmaninoff-like speed tempo. My major teacher, the late Robert Weaver, taught the first part of this to all of his students.First, you sit very quietly at the keyboard, and that includes your breathing and whole body relaxation. This is important because you are building positive muscle memory from the ground up.Next, you play a five finger scale in each hand, with super soft staccato. This is done by striking the key from its surface (just the way Egon Petri taught Earl Wild!).Then, you get it where you can do this with both hands, depending on your own individual level of dexterity. So, when you can do this with no forced effort, you can move on to the speed practice.From this point on, you view every technical section as a scale cluster, broken chord section, or an arpeggiated section. This is played up or down, hands separately or hands together.You then play a particular section of the piece in question as fast as you can, utilizing your pre-disposed soft, surface quick staccato tactile sense that you gained from the first section of this discourse. Accordingly, you alternate between full arm weight and no arm weight.I use the term Rachmaninoff-like technique because this is what he taught his students.Or, you can waste your time playing exercises, all of which Rachmaninoff did before he came up with this regimen (which was probably taught to him at Conservatory).
I apologize on behalf of all the Chinese pianists for their lack of soul. It seemed like their physical practice did not bring their music closer to your soul. Now because I care about my potential audience, would you teach me a Chinese Canadian pianist on how to have a soul so my music can be more worthy to you? Please give me clear and direct instructions. Is it about the God I worship? Be it Jesus Christ, Virgin Mary or Buddha? Is it about the book I read from? Be it bible, dao de jing or Chinese communist propaganda. Is it hormone related? Is it money related? If I tell you, I found out an artist named Hitler has so much passion and charm, does it mean he has a soul and it's easier for him to convey emotions to you? Is the soul only approachable from the physical world, aroused by physical stimulations? Please enlighten me.
The statement is often made that the Chinese, and I have friends who are Tawainese, make a a huge deal about the art of copying. Some of them consider it to be a fine art in terms of vases and small sculpture.So, when I listen to Lang Lang in solo performance, I hear six or seven different pianists performing. Piece number one is patterned after a particular recording, and then so on.That is not individual voice pianism. No one plays the piano the way I do, and I have endured over 50 years of pain and suffering (some of which continue to do this day) to manifest my particular art form.Please park your reverse Xenophobia (as I am also a philosopher) and instead spend your energies learning how to paint, dance, and act dramatically. That is how (to answer your question) you get there, with your own individualized personal development! - and, not with some formulized Czerny like Study.
Are you afraid/mad/angry/upset that after they copied piano they will also copy genes? loll ...
Like I said, "reverse Xenophobia." Please stick to the post's premise of playing the piano.And, for the record there are many Chinese scientists/ sports specialists trying to do what you suggest, which is not to copy genes, but to instead enhance a gene pool. We, occidentals are not totally clueless.
So since this mix is now inevitable in this generation, can't you open up your soul and try to accept?
Here is the drill! And, I am not the only one who visits this website who has been asked to worship at the altar of the Russian/Chinese/Ukranian, et al new piano wonder.We are not, as directly inferred by the OP, asked to admire a Chinese pianist, instead we are not supposed to even remotely consider their superior approach to piano pedagogy as anything but superior to ours.For the record, when a local pianist of my city was admitted to the freshman piano class at Juilliard, he was the only American citizen admitted that year. Do you really think that people do not pay attention to the fact that everyone else with a "Student Visa" was admitted over 330 million Americans? Who do you think, through their tax system of tax exempt college foundations, subsidizes that school?Acceptance? Acceptance has to do with a specific set of facts, and that does not mean if you play Czerny as most of the Chinese students do, that you are in any way shape manner or form a superior student to anyone else on this planet.
Here is the drill! And, I am not the only one who visits this website who has been asked to worship at the altar of the Russian/.../Ukranian, et al new piano wonder.
New? I thought that area has been producing great pianists for over a century now...
When the west meets the east, impressionism was born with the little bit of knowledge that French obtained from the Japanese. When the east meets the west, it was due to colonization that people felt a survival threat so they had to learn a western instrument. Trust me, as the only country that did not sign on the Traite de Versailles in Paris, Chinese are the ones that care the most about peace and harmony. If tomorrow USA destroys all the bombs, all the Chinese will go back to learn Erhu and Guzheng, though they might acknowledge piano and violin do sound better, but they're the last people in the world that wanted to touch "other instruments from other civilisations".
I'm not saying we should worship their artistry, I'm saying based on the fact that we all know we are now not superior to them(or me) in an art that we(or you) have invented, if someone is beating us(or you) at our(or your) own game, I suggest we(yes, as in we, all of us) adapt some of their approach to art. Chinese culture (Russians too) focus on the training of discipline at a young age, therefore they practice piano, a western instrument just like they practice kung fu, they spend endless hours on those soulless etudes invented by someone completely lack of soul exactly because they need to build the "foundation" of the soul (Qi). Then they learn the rest of the superficial things, the presentation, or in your words, the "dramatic expression". Yes, Chinese did something stupid by doing tests on embryos, but those are Chinese embryos, their own kind. What's the difference between them and Marie Curie who died 150 years ago because she was exposed in X Ray for too long just to add two extra elements to the periodic table? Is Marie Curie stupid? No, scientific discovery and understanding come with the sacrifice of human life.
Very well put!IMO, one should understand the reasons behind acquiring the ideal of flawless technique. Technique can be a drug, when you have acquired it you can get high on it and not want for anything else.
I think: dexterity, velocity comes from intense practice. One does not gain technique by reading Chang and thinking about making the right movements but by repeating the right movements, imprinting them.
Topic: flawless technique, Chinese pianists, Czerny.... 