"Adding" to repertoire like the Scherzi

[diomedes]

Curious as to the opinions circulating on something that inevitably causes sensitive issues:

Some performers add effects, for lack of a better word, to the Chopin scherzi and i think at times they are justified. Pletnev in particular stands out as doing it correctly to me, the end of the 1st Scherzo is terrifying, but he achieves the effect by amplifying the bass. I'm not exactly sure what he does, but the Carnegie hall performance is incredible and it's complemented by that approach. He does something similar in the middle climax of the 2nd Scherzo.

Samson Francois takes more liberties, but i don't really think they always work. Particularly the 3rd Scherzo. But he belongs to a different tradition altogether.

And then there's Horowitz. I don't think the octaves are necessary at the end of the 1st.

Opinions?

[cabbynum]

Funny enough my teacher and I were talking about Horowitz and that first scherzo. The overlapping octaves would be a lot easier to play than if you kept it as written. To play that chromatic scale at tempo and even and hands 100% together is very difficult to acheive without it sounding, well for lack of a better term boring. So the overlapping octaves which he is known to be good at would be somewhat of an easier approach to such a passage

I personally am all for adding to music. The most I have done in a live performance is take a few notes down an octave or add an octave. Like rach op.23 no.5 g minor, those g minor scales with octave in the rh and single note LH i just do both as octaves.

Iv also used improvisation to save my ass a few times during performances. one particularly bad one was with Beethoven tempest. I was playing it on zero sleep and was feeling out of it and had a blinding headache. Not trying to make excuses just explaining why i may have had this giant memory slip. It was the easiest part too. After the A minor section when yoou have the half note octaves. I have no idea but i completely forget the chord progression. I knew how it was supposed to sound so i just played around with rolled chords and themes from the piece and other Beethoven works until i remembered where i was. I had a different teacher at the time... It ended up working out really well thankfully.

I am rambling
sorry


basically in my opinion i think music is a freeflowing thing to some degree and additions are always welcome to me.

[michael_sayers]

I, too, like to add to the music.

Mvh,
Michael

[dogperson]

I, too, like to add to the music.

Mvh,
Michael

At some point, shouldn't adding to the music call for a rename of the music to 'improvisations on xxx originally by xxxx'?  This Bach performance seems to meet the improvisation level. 

[chopinlover01]

I, too, like to add to the music.

Mvh,
Michael

There's a difference between adding to it and brutally murdering it 

[j_menz]

If it works, go for it. If it doesn't, don't.

I think it should come from an understanding of the piece as written. Some pieces seem more amenable than others. And in some cases it seems almost mandatory - such as where descending octaves peter out into single notes just because pianos at the time didn't go that low or high.

[michael_sayers]

At some point, shouldn't adding to the music call for a rename of the music to 'improvisations on xxx originally by xxxx'?  This Bach performance seems to meet the improvisation level. 

Hi Dogperson,

In my opinion it is below the level of being an improvisation.  An improvisation would be a new "composition", with a different structure, harmonies, et c., yet based on ideas from the Bach Invention.


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

There's a difference between adding to it and brutally murdering it  

Hi Chopinlover01,

Right now classical music is being "murdered" by hordes of careful and well-meaning musicians who follow the score.  It can't go too much lower than 3% of the commercial market without slipping over the side of the cliff.  If it weren't for a lot of entrenched institutional with financial support, the professional classical music world would be gone already.  That support system is nearing the edge, too, and it is time for a creative rebirth of classical music.


Mvh,
Michael

[mjames]

I usually add a few ornaments (depends on the piece) for fun, especially on the op. 55 nocturne! I mean, if it was okay for Jorge Bolet, then it's okay for me. But other than adding in a few ornament or two notes of music I'm pretty strict/conservative on myself when it comes to music. I didn't even know i was until quite a few people pointed it out to me.

[dogperson]

Hi Chopinlover01,

Right now classical music is being "murdered" by hordes of careful and well-meaning musicians who follow the score.  It can't go too much lower than 3% of the commercial market without slipping over the side of the cliff.  If it weren't for a lot of entrenched institutional with financial support, the professional classical music world would be gone already.  That support system is nearing the edge, too, and it is time for a creative rebirth of classical music.


Mvh,
Michael

I'm not sure how you make these assertions about the death of classical music and the need for a "creative rebirth".  That being said, be creative.  At some point when you push the limits beyond a reasonable boundary, label the piece as an improvisation based on....

What you did in the Bach recording no longer resembles Bach and should not be labeled as Bach. The listener will then be prepared for your creative interpretation, and will judge the merits on that basis.

[michael_sayers]

Hi Dogperson,

I don't know why anyone would judge a recording or a performance based on the title.  That would be a bit like judging a book by its cover (or title).


Mvh,
Michael

[michael_sayers]

p.s. - As an example, here is a recording of Bach's Air on the G String and definitely it is not the music as notated.  I've read through the comments and I don't see anyone getting enraged about the YouTube title which doesn't even acknowledge a source other than the pianist for the music content.  Titles aren't even copyrightable or considered to be part of a work of the performing arts . . . so I don't know why people would get hung up on needing to have (or to not have) a particular title to make a performance or a recording sound good.

[diomedes]

Funny enough my teacher and I were talking about Horowitz and that first scherzo. The overlapping octaves would be a lot easier to play than if you kept it as written. To play that chromatic scale at tempo and even and hands 100% together is very difficult to acheive without it sounding, well for lack of a better term boring. So the overlapping octaves which he is known to be good at would be somewhat of an easier approach to such a passage

Odd. That's the second instance of the chromatic scale being sited as a serious obstacle, given the indicated accents. I was reading Conversations with Arrau and Arrau himself says it's easier to play it as Horowitz does. The scale isn't so bad, as long as you don't have incorrect fingerings. Now, the first page of this, it's bloody murder to control and play accurately very fast. The rest of the scherzo technically is very manageable.

I personally am all for adding to music. The most I have done in a live performance is take a few notes down an octave or add an octave. Like rach op.23 no.5 g minor, those g minor scales with octave in the rh and single note LH i just do both as octaves.

I guess. It never really came up to me as an option. I don't think i've heard it played that way before.