fast note runs in both hands

[fowler]

Hi,

I am currently learning chopin's first ballade in G minor, and think I can manage the whole of it apart from the very end. The fast runs in the G Minor scale with both hands together is causing me concerns.

I was wondering if you play them really really rapidly and get them more or less together so that it sounds like they land at the same time, or do you have to be exactly right in time with the notes, I know this may sound confusing but I dont know how else to put it. A similar run for example is at the end of his winter wind etude.

My problem is that my right hand is a lot stronger than my left, so my right fingers can shoot up the notes no problem, but my left fingers dont match exactly, however I do land roughly together on the last note, therefore it sounds like the passage is pulled off. So my question is do they have to perfectly match in time? If so how do you do it.

[mound]

I think if they aren't perfectly timed to match each other and only end together, it will sound sloppy and perhaps some of the melodies that can only arise "out of the spaces" will be lost.   (I hope you know what I'm referring to, it's hard to describe. Chang described it in his book referring to the Fantasie Impromptu)

Sounds like you need to put some more work in with your LH, find something challenging to alternate your RH with, from the same piece or different..

Perhaps a "dropped notes" exercise is in order to get your timing down, but from your post I don't think it's an issue of coordination, just LH technique.

bottom line -use your ears - if you fumble through the passage just "kinda sorta" hitting all the notes along the way does it sound good to you? Listen to a recording where they do match up, does that sound better?


-Paul

[willcowskitz]

I have the same problem with my left hand, and I've taught it to play in rhythm with the right by playing right hand's passages mirrored from right. The motoric movement itself is easy, but repeating it in rhythm with the right hand helps develop the consistency of motion in the weaker hand. Of course it sounds terrible but oh well...

[anda]

i found it helps (me, at least) to work ht this kind of passages, forcing the left hand to lead when i practice and letting my right hand to lead when i'm playing (my left is my weaker hand). also, working in dotted rhythms is said (by most pianists) to be useful.

[ted]

Three more examples are the runs in the Ab Polonaise, the run at the beginning of Mazeppa and the little descending chromatic runs in Wild Chase. Speaking for myself, I have found I am not limited to one way of playing these things. I find that I can still feel individual, coordinated finger strokes even at very high speed - if I want to. It's a sort of internal sensation I can switch on or switch off, and either state may be best for different passages, and even for the same passage at different times.

For me the musical effect counts in the end. This can be determined objectively by making recordings and comparing them. As long as the notes don't sound glaringly uneven and all over the place, a very rapid sweep of notes might be just right. As the speed decreases I find myself tending to feel individual strokes and coordination more, and sometimes the clear effect of this - like a chain of dominoes falling over - is just what the doctor ordered. Players like Cziffra and Jarrett are particularly good at this sound. Maybe people who improvise a lot tend to go the coordinated way more because of added rhythmic definition - but I'm getting into conjecture here.

[fowler]

Thanks for advice, My left hand needs a bit of excercise I think, thats why I am learning the chopin etude, revolutionary just to change the balance of playing everything in the right hand all the time.

[quasimodo]

Bach's contrapuntal compositions (inventions, fugues) seem to be a good material to make the LH work consistently without having the impression of doing exercices.

[ehpianist]

They need to be together, you can't fudge over it no matter how much you wish you could!

Make sure your fingering is as even as possible in both hands, having the two thumbs land at the same time as much as possible and most definitely in all possible strong beats of the measure.  Break the scale down into smaller portions and work on getting from the first beat to the second.  Then the second to the thirdd and so on.  Make your left hand louder than your right, have the right follow the left and not the other way around.

Practice in rhythms.  Have you been taught how to do that? It is always annoying to find out that our left hand is the slower/dumber sister to the right.

Elena
https://www.pianofourhands.com

[Sketchee]

My initial reaction was going to be a post the same as anda's!  Let the weaker hand lead and the strong hand follow.  Pay attention to the weaker hand more and make sure you get all the notes there in time.  The other hand will have an easier time.  It's not going to perfect itself instantly this way, but it's another way to practice them that will help the hands learn to stay together.

I know I sometimes have this problem even if I have practiced hand seperately and can do them at speed.  It's the technique of getting them together that seems to be the problem, at least for me.  Other variations that help me are shifting accents so you can get the timing of individual notes.  Accent every other note, then every fourth note, then every third note etc at various speeds.

[xvimbi]

My initial reaction was going to be a post the same as anda's!  Let the weaker hand lead and the strong hand follow.  Pay attention to the weaker hand more and make sure you get all the notes there in time.  The other hand will have an easier time.  It's not going to perfect itself instantly this way, but it's another way to practice them that will help the hands learn to stay together.

I would suggest the exact opposite: let the strong hand be a tad faster than the weak. Use the strong hand to "teach" the weak one and to pull it along. This works best if the fingering is very similar (as already suggested by EHpianist). The idea is that the weaker hand will be "encouraged" to speed up. The speed gap must not be too big, otherwise everything will fall apart. I find it ideal when the weak hand is just barely making it, while the strong hand is comfortable. As soon as the weak hand gets comfortable too, speed up the strong hand again, and so on. If you use the weaker hand as the leading hand, you may not be able to improve at all. In the end, however, you need to find out which way works best for you. But above all, you should really try to play in rhythm. You may get away with not being exactly in rhythm in this particular passage, but in others you won't, so you may just as well work on it now.