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Topic: Metronomes are useless?  (Read 3338 times)

Offline cuberdrift

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Metronomes are useless?
on: June 30, 2015, 09:56:12 AM
Hi all.

Lately, I've been fixated on the prospect of being able to play at extremely fast speeds. So I challenged myself to play  C# Major arpeggios at quarter=180, something quite radical for me (I have been struggling to get it clean at quarter =132 before now), so I tried all sorts of ways to be able to do it.

My teacher is firm and consistent about me using a metronome, particularly if it's a steady-rhythm piece, like an etude/classical sonata/Bach WTC. So I've been accustomed to doing so.

The arpeggio is the typical four-octave version, both hands. I tried many ways to do it; I tried practicing every four notes starting from the bottom, then the next four notes, etc. But I always used a metronome.

But then recently I tried something different; I played around the arpeggios without a strict beat (but making sure all the notes are hit correctly), and WOW. After doing that a few times, I played it again with the metronome at quarter=180, and I executed it almost perfectly!

I was left to reflect on my improvisatory side. I've noticed that many of my colleagues appraise me for my being able to play at rather quicker speeds than they can, and if there is one thing I regularly do on the piano that they don't, it's that I improvise. I copy the way Gyorgy Cziffra spams arpeggios everywhere on the keyboard while improvising on some tune, or the way Art Tatum improvises at insane tempos.

For some reason, I find it much easier to sound 'virtuosic' when I improvise. Perhaps it's because the techniques I do when I improvise are those which are most comfortable for me, but even then; I noticed that I could play arpeggios in certain keys VERY quickly, and easily, with a metronome, compared to those in keys that I don't improvise on much (I rarely improvise in C#, so it's hard for me to play C# arpeggios; but c minor, a key I regularly improvise on, is a piece of cake).

Should I quit practicing scales and technically hard passages with a metronome? Should I tell my teacher about this dilemma? It's really a fascinating mystery on why I suddenly GET it if I just 'play around' without any restrictive beat playing along. What are your thoughts on this?

Offline j_menz

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #1 on: June 30, 2015, 11:33:11 AM
Welcome to the light.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline cinnamon21

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #2 on: June 30, 2015, 12:05:23 PM
I think metronome is useful to check the tempo of the piece.
As for practicing, I don't use it cos I think it's better to have inner pulse...count inside and always practice the correct notes in slow motion....also check your alignment, posture and avoid any tension. Then the speed will come. I tried practicing note-by-note with metronome last time and I hated it because that kind of practice isn't musical. My friend practiced Bach Italian Concerto, 1st mov this way...her Bach sounds dry and mechanical...like every note feels calculated.

So...you're right. I learnt it the hard way myself. Just practice your way and trust yourself, don't always listen to your teacher cos they're not always right. Been there done that.
Currently working on:

Bach - P&F in C# Major, BWV 872, Book II
Haydn - Sonata No.60 in C Major, Hob. XVI 50
Mendelssohn - Variations Serieuses
Debussy - Reflets dans l'eau
Ravel - Jeux d'eau

Offline indianajo

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #3 on: June 30, 2015, 01:22:20 PM
Some people are rhythm challenged and do everything at vari-tempo wandering all over the place.  These people, if they are going to ever share in public, need a prosthetic click track implanted in their ear.  Tempo variations need to have some emotional reason, not be random.  
I don't know whether you are one of these, or your teacher is a control nut.  If the latter, ditch the metronome.  It might help to record yourself on a steady march or JSbach or something, then have some rhythmic friend, not your teacher evaluate your rhythm capability.
My teacher found I was great at steady JS Bach very early and never nagged me about the metronome again.  I have friends that if they tried to march in a platoon, would always be bumping into the guy in front or stepping on the guy behind.  People are different, find out what kind you are. If you inherently vary too much, use the metronome:  At least until you learn to  connect the rhythm circuits inherent in your ability to walk without falling over, to your hands and music.
As far as speed, I find that practicing at a modest speed for perfection comes first.  Then when the piece is memorized and everything is embedded in the brain reflex circuits, I can turn up the speed screw quite easily. Or at least I could until I turned age 55.  After that age muscle stiffness come into play. Since then  some days I  can go pretty fast, others, not.  

Offline cuberdrift

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #4 on: June 30, 2015, 02:43:04 PM
Thanks for the advice guys.  :)

So you think I shouldn't follow my teacher on this? Would you advise me to tell her?

I mean seriously...sure the metronome could keep me in tempo, but I find that it's somehow harder for me to concentrate on shaping the notes and sound, which I think is the most fun part of practicing a piece. I find that I have to concentrate on doing the shaping as well as keeping in tempo, which makes it harder.

Plus I think I have a greater tendency to go 'autopilot' with the metronome. I have yet to see it should actually be used, really (except as cinnamon21 said, to check the piece's tempo).

I don't know whether you are one of these, or your teacher is a control nut.

No, I am not one of these.

Quote
My teacher found I was great at steady JS Bach very early and never nagged me about the metronome again.

Alright, I realized now, maybe she DOES have a point. Sometimes, she says I speed up in certain sections of a Mozart sonata or Liszt etude. But really, if ever I do need to stabilize my tempo, and use a metronome, I think I should use the device only minimally, i.e., just to make sure the tempo doesn't vary. But then again, I feel I should do most of the practicing without it.

Quote
As far as speed, I find that practicing at a modest speed for perfection comes first.

Like I said, when I practiced those arpeggios without a metronome, of course I didn't play them quickly right away. What was just different is that I really, literally "played around" with them; I didn't keep a steady rhythm, etc. The point is that I wanted to "embrace" the arpeggios; make my hands used to be around them, so it becomes "natural", rather than "mechanical" to play them. And it appears my strategy worked, as far as I can see.

It's sort of like how, say, Oscar Peterson plays right hand lines so insanely fast without any noticeable slips. As a jazz pianist, he probably didn't practice them ahead of time (maybe he does practice lines, but during the performance he just improvises those up), and has an absolutely superb sense of beat as well. All probably without a metronome. I think this is how I got good, too; by getting used to the keys as naturally as possible. I treated them like my friend; I could do as I pleased with them.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #5 on: June 30, 2015, 03:52:06 PM
Hi all.
 the way Art Tatum improvises at insane tempos.

For some reason, I find it much easier to sound 'virtuosic' when I improvise.

Should I quit practicing scales and technically hard passages with a metronome? Should I tell my teacher about this dilemma? It's really a fascinating mystery on why I suddenly GET it if I just 'play around' without any restrictive beat playing along. What are your thoughts on this?

I completely get it...lol.   I try so hard to explain but few understand.    It is soooooo easy that way -- and I read quite well and I am very classically trained. 

by and large classical pianists are just basically dumbfounded by improvisation.  To them--you are reading sheet music somewhere in your head--you have planned each of those notes and practiced delivering them flawlessly---how can you tell them that it's all on the fly?   That what you hear in your head comes out of your hands effortlessly?  They simply cannot understand and many are insanely jealous of that ability.  Your teacher is amazed by it I would venture to guess--but will NEVER tell you that...lol

You are special if you have that skill--it is oh so rare in the music world.  I have walked the line between classical and jazz my whole life.   Classical pianists pass off their unwanted jazz gigs to me--and the "blue collar" pianists call me if they are asked to read anything...lol.  It's a great niche to have...

the metronome is a good thing though--if you hate that droning beep--try using drum tracks instead.  Steadiness of tempo is everything and practicing with a steady beat helps so much.

Art Tatum --- I love him too...  I think you are a jazzer at heart.

Offline visitor

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #6 on: June 30, 2015, 04:18:36 PM
it's a tool.
best to have lots of tools for various needs (ie best tool for the job)
as the saying goes, the whole world is a nail when you only tool is a hammer.
you'll get more mileage out of things by utilizing different approaches (appropriate/in context to the situation).
i like metronomes, but only to workout problems where a metronome is best suited for that task  :)

Offline cuberdrift

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #7 on: July 01, 2015, 01:34:47 PM
by and large classical pianists are just basically dumbfounded by improvisation.  To them--you are reading sheet music somewhere in your head--you have planned each of those notes and practiced delivering them flawlessly---how can you tell them that it's all on the fly?   That what you hear in your head comes out of your hands effortlessly?  They simply cannot understand and many are insanely jealous of that ability.  Your teacher is amazed by it I would venture to guess--but will NEVER tell you that...lol

And to think that most of the names printed on the upper-right hand corner of the charts we read were masters at it...I recall Beethoven, when challenged by another famous pianist (can't recall the name), sightread a Sonata by that pianist UPSIDE-DOWN and then IMPROVISED for 30 minutes! The pianist couldn't stand it anymore, so he left even before Beethoven finished. Quite a fascinating story.

I simply don't get why improv is so overlooked these days in the classical world. Music is a language. Language is something we use everyday, in virtually every situation. We can adjust the volume of our voice, choose which words to use, etc. without even thinking, to communicate the message we intend to send to our recipient. Music should be like that, too.

Quote
the metronome is a good thing though--if you hate that droning beep--try using drum tracks instead.  Steadiness of tempo is everything and practicing with a steady beat helps so much.

But why then did I get the arpeggio faster without doing it along the metronome?

Quote
Art Tatum --- I love him too...  I think you are a jazzer at heart.

Perhaps I am...but right now my college life takes most of my time and it's hard for me to spend much time searching for new ways to improvise. I sort of am stuck at the same patterns already. I wonder how I can progress...

Offline michael_c

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #8 on: July 01, 2015, 02:37:04 PM
the metronome is a good thing though--if you hate that droning beep--try using drum tracks instead.  Steadiness of tempo is everything and practicing with a steady beat helps so much.

But why then did I get the arpeggio faster without doing it along the metronome?

Because playing faster and playing steadier are not the same thing.

The function of practicing with a metronome is to keep you steady. It can noticeably be helpful in slow practice to prevent you from rushing. However, as you have found out yourself, it it not so useful in gaining agility.

Offline dcstudio

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #9 on: July 01, 2015, 07:42:36 PM
And to think that most of the names printed on the upper-right hand corner of the charts we read were masters at it...

of course they were...  I think that has something to do with it actually.   In music school they tell you -- without saying it directly--that you are incapable of attaining the music prowess of the masters---nothing you do will ever compare to what they have done.  That the only true pianists are those who can flawlessly play Liszt--or Rach--or Beeth--or whoever.   It actually creates almost a phobia in the student.   They become afraid to express themselves with their own music which they consider to be substandard at best.   Any composing is painstakingly slow and methodical--because that's how they were taught.

I read that Chopin improvised the Opus 66 at a party of some sort then went home and wrote it down.  To someone with no improv skills that sounds so amazingly impressive...  but to those of us who can improvise...it's not so hard to understand how he did that.

Formal classical piano teachers seem to delight in downplaying improv and ear-playing skills--because so many are unable to do it themselves.  They drill the creativity right out of you...

Offline werq34ac

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #10 on: July 04, 2015, 07:18:43 PM
If one thing is for certain, a working metronome never lies. If your pulse is not perfectly even, the metronome will tell you. That said, the metronome is a great TOOL but nothing more than a tool to aid you in your practice. If you need a fast passage to be perfectly even, use a metronome.
Ravel Jeux D'eau
Brahms 118/2
Liszt Concerto 1
Rachmaninoff/Kreisler Liebesleid

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #11 on: July 04, 2015, 10:29:06 PM
If one thing is for certain, a working metronome never lies. If your pulse is not perfectly even, the metronome will tell you. That said, the metronome is a great TOOL but nothing more than a tool to aid you in your practice. If you need a fast passage to be perfectly even, use a metronome.
Very well said, and thank you for your "common sense" reply.  These days, it is a rarity.

1)  The metronome did not even exist until late in Beethoven's life.  And for the record, if you have anything other than one or two of the best electronic brands, THEY ARE NOT ACCURATE!!!  They are off time, especially the big black box.

2)  If speed is your goal then you have to understand the basic tactile nature of playing the piano, and then adapt accordingly, in my opinion, and also that of the late Earl Wild.

So, in that I shared this on another post, this is what I recommend, and I have the small hand and spindly fingers to back it up:

This concept is an effectuation of combining direct keyboard tactile touch at an extremely slow tempo, and then morphing it into a Rachmaninoff-like speed tempo.  My major teacher, the late Robert Weaver, taught the first part of this to all of his students.

First, you sit very quietly at the keyboard, and that includes your breathing and whole body relaxation.

Next, you very slowly (one note at a time) play a five finger scale in each hand, with super soft staccato.  This is done by striking the key from its surface (just the way Egon Petri taught Earl Wild!).

(It is important to rest for a few seconds with hands in lap between each playing because you are building positive muscle memory from the ground up.)

Then, you get it where you can do this with both hands, depending on your own individual level of dexterity.  So, when you can do this with no forced effort, you can move on to the speed practice.

From this point on, you view every technical section as a scale cluster, broken chord section, or an arpeggiated section.  This is played up or down, hands separately or hands together.

You then play a particular section of the piece in question as fast as you can (up or down, in clusters), utilizing your pre-disposed soft, surface quick staccato tactile sense that you gained from the first section of this discourse.  Accordingly, you alternate between full arm weight and no arm weight, resting hands in lap between each alternation (remember, you are training your brain).

I use the term Rachmaninoff-like technique because this is what he taught his students.

I hope this helps.

Offline cuberdrift

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #12 on: July 10, 2015, 04:52:22 PM
Because playing faster and playing steadier are not the same thing.

But I said that I could keep up with the 180 bpm ticking sound AFTER I practiced the arpeggio without any metronome.

Seriously though. I have to consider asking my teacher again why she's so strict about it. I just feel like I am limited by the speed restriction of the metronome. I understand it's to keep me from rushing, but do I need it ALL the time?!

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #13 on: July 11, 2015, 04:27:19 PM
But I said that I could keep up with the 180 bpm ticking sound AFTER I practiced the arpeggio without any metronome.

Seriously though. I have to consider asking my teacher again why she's so strict about it. I just feel like I am limited by the speed restriction of the metronome. I understand it's to keep me from rushing, but do I need it ALL the time?!
Of course not.  And, most good teachers strive to have their students develop an inner sense of time.  Listen to any Claudio Arrau recording, and I can tell you that the man had a phenomenal skill in this area.   And, he darn sure didn't get it from any metronome.

If you can find a good Dalcroze Eurhythmics instructor, this methodology works wonders for this.

Offline pianoplunker

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #14 on: July 11, 2015, 06:32:14 PM
of course they were...  I think that has something to do with it actually.   In music school they tell you -- without saying it directly--that you are incapable of attaining the music prowess of the masters---nothing you do will ever compare to what they have done.  That the only true pianists are those who can flawlessly play Liszt--or Rach--or Beeth--or whoever.   It actually creates almost a phobia in the student.   They become afraid to express themselves with their own music which they consider to be substandard at best.   Any composing is painstakingly slow and methodical--because that's how they were taught.

I read that Chopin improvised the Opus 66 at a party of some sort then went home and wrote it down.  To someone with no improv skills that sounds so amazingly impressive...  but to those of us who can improvise...it's not so hard to understand how he did that.

Formal classical piano teachers seem to delight in downplaying improv and ear-playing skills--because so many are unable to do it themselves.  They drill the creativity right out of you...



I think if Chopin or any of our other favorites could listen to the millions of great performances of their music today, they would be shocked and disappointed at how so many played exactly what they wrote.

Offline pianoplunker

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #15 on: July 11, 2015, 06:47:42 PM
If one thing is for certain, a working metronome never lies. If your pulse is not perfectly even, the metronome will tell you. That said, the metronome is a great TOOL but nothing more than a tool to aid you in your practice. If you need a fast passage to be perfectly even, use a metronome.

Well stated. Nice to know someone sees the true light about metronomes  :)

Offline pianoplunker

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #16 on: July 11, 2015, 06:57:55 PM
Hi all.

Lately, I've been fixated on the prospect of being able to play at extremely fast speeds. So I challenged myself to play  C# Major arpeggios at quarter=180, something quite radical for me (I have been struggling to get it clean at quarter =132 before now), so I tried all sorts of ways to be able to do it.

My teacher is firm and consistent about me using a metronome, particularly if it's a steady-rhythm piece, like an etude/classical sonata/Bach WTC. So I've been accustomed to doing so.

The arpeggio is the typical four-octave version, both hands. I tried many ways to do it; I tried practicing every four notes starting from the bottom, then the next four notes, etc. But I always used a metronome.

But then recently I tried something different; I played around the arpeggios without a strict beat (but making sure all the notes are hit correctly), and WOW. After doing that a few times, I played it again with the metronome at quarter=180, and I executed it almost perfectly!

I was left to reflect on my improvisatory side. I've noticed that many of my colleagues appraise me for my being able to play at rather quicker speeds than they can, and if there is one thing I regularly do on the piano that they don't, it's that I improvise. I copy the way Gyorgy Cziffra spams arpeggios everywhere on the keyboard while improvising on some tune, or the way Art Tatum improvises at insane tempos.

For some reason, I find it much easier to sound 'virtuosic' when I improvise. Perhaps it's because the techniques I do when I improvise are those which are most comfortable for me, but even then; I noticed that I could play arpeggios in certain keys VERY quickly, and easily, with a metronome, compared to those in keys that I don't improvise on much (I rarely improvise in C#, so it's hard for me to play C# arpeggios; but c minor, a key I regularly improvise on, is a piece of cake).

Should I quit practicing scales and technically hard passages with a metronome? Should I tell my teacher about this dilemma? It's really a fascinating mystery on why I suddenly GET it if I just 'play around' without any restrictive beat playing along. What are your thoughts on this?

If you are able to improvise like you describe, surely it is because of your disciplined practice where you might use a metronome from time to time ( no pun intended ). Your teacher might have strict rules but if being able to enjoy creating music is the result, I would listen.

Offline nick

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #17 on: July 15, 2015, 07:54:01 PM
Hi all.

Lately, I've been fixated on the prospect of being able to play at extremely fast speeds. So I challenged myself to play  C# Major arpeggios at quarter=180, something quite radical for me (I have been struggling to get it clean at quarter =132 before now), so I tried all sorts of ways to be able to do it.

My teacher is firm and consistent about me using a metronome, particularly if it's a steady-rhythm piece, like an etude/classical sonata/Bach WTC. So I've been accustomed to doing so.

The arpeggio is the typical four-octave version, both hands. I tried many ways to do it; I tried practicing every four notes starting from the bottom, then the next four notes, etc. But I always used a metronome.

But then recently I tried something different; I played around the arpeggios without a strict beat (but making sure all the notes are hit correctly), and WOW. After doing that a few times, I played it again with the metronome at quarter=180, and I executed it almost perfectly!

I was left to reflect on my improvisatory side. I've noticed that many of my colleagues appraise me for my being able to play at rather quicker speeds than they can, and if there is one thing I regularly do on the piano that they don't, it's that I improvise. I copy the way Gyorgy Cziffra spams arpeggios everywhere on the keyboard while improvising on some tune, or the way Art Tatum improvises at insane tempos.

For some reason, I find it much easier to sound 'virtuosic' when I improvise. Perhaps it's because the techniques I do when I improvise are those which are most comfortable for me, but even then; I noticed that I could play arpeggios in certain keys VERY quickly, and easily, with a metronome, compared to those in keys that I don't improvise on much (I rarely improvise in C#, so it's hard for me to play C# arpeggios; but c minor, a key I regularly improvise on, is a piece of cake).

Should I quit practicing scales and technically hard passages with a metronome? Should I tell my teacher about this dilemma? It's really a fascinating mystery on why I suddenly GET it if I just 'play around' without any restrictive beat playing along. What are your thoughts on this?

By "playing around", do you mean you might play 6 notes to the beat at one spot, then 3, then 4 etc?

Nick

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #18 on: July 15, 2015, 11:02:15 PM
I think if Chopin or any of our other favorites could listen to the millions of great performances of their music today, they would be shocked and disappointed at how so many played exactly what they wrote.
Thank you  for your courageous insight.

It has been referenced in many journal articles that Fredryk Chopin edited his Etudes (per the metronome markings) when a pianist whose first name was Franz, played them through for him personally.

Conversely, Beethoven's metronome markings, added near his death, are a joke, and every major Conductor knows this.

He was deaf!  You cannot hear the "tick," if you cannot hear!
Go ahead, and pull-up online the recorded Symphonies of this composer with his added metronome markings.

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Metronomes are useless?
Reply #19 on: July 15, 2015, 11:19:46 PM
I need to be more specific about the phrase:  Beethoven's metronome markings are considered a "joke," by most conductors.  The markings are approximately 50% higher/faster than any traditional Orchestra in the world plays them.

The point is, the Metronome was and should always be, in my opinion, a very rough (but important) guide in terms of practice AND PEFORMANCE!

I can tell in a heartbeat, in live performance, if a pianist has used this very valuable device to enhance their pianistic skills.

Is it that obvious?  Yes,it is.
 
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