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Topic: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini Rachmaninoff  (Read 2285 times)

Offline superman1980

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Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini Rachmaninoff
on: July 03, 2015, 09:05:10 PM
Not sure where exactly to put this post but here it is:
I'm looking to play Rachmaninoff's Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini but it is 25 minutes long. Is there any way to make orchestral cuts to shorten it to around 15 (preferbly) or 20 minutes?
Thanks.
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Offline dogperson

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Re: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini Rachmaninoff
Reply #1 on: July 03, 2015, 09:57:21 PM
If  you are planning to transcribe the entire concerto into a piano solo,   there is a two-piano version, complete.  You  might want to start with adapting the  two-piano.  I am surprised it has never been done, and I am wondering why.  Maybe wrongly, I thought maybe it can't be?  I have wanted var 10-17 but haven't looked at the possibility of tackling a self-adaptation as I already have too many mountains to climb already and not enough time to climb them. 

Offline louispodesta

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Re: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini Rachmaninoff
Reply #2 on: July 03, 2015, 10:15:54 PM
Not sure where exactly to put this post but here it is:
I'm looking to play Rachmaninoff's Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini but it is 25 minutes long. Is there any way to make orchestral cuts to shorten it to around 15 (preferbly) or 20 minutes?
Thanks.
Depending on the performer, the Brahms 2nd (Claudio Arraru) can be 52 minutes long.  Carl Friedberg's live recording, who studied the piece under the composer, is not much shorter.

Count your blessings and learn the original form of the Rachmaninoff.  Gosh, you young wonders seem to specialize in focusing on what is the easiest.

And, for the record, in terms of putting this on a concert scheduled performance, I have never heard of a single conductor who would even entertain the idea of "cuts' in this already short piece.  Rachmaninoff is not Mozart, and this is his shortest piece for piano and orchestra.

Offline breakup

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Re: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini Rachmaninoff
Reply #3 on: July 03, 2015, 10:43:11 PM
Hello, I'm currently working on an arrangement of that piece that will be 40 measures long.  I'm not sure how long that will be in minutes, but when I finish I will try to send you a copy.   

Offline dogperson

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Re: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini Rachmaninoff
Reply #4 on: July 03, 2015, 11:19:26 PM
Hello, I'm currently working on an arrangement of that piece that will be 40 measures long.  I'm not sure how long that will be in minutes, but when I finish I will try to send you a copy.   


The 18th variation alone is this approx 40 measures.   Are you really discussing making the entire concerto 40 measures ? 

Offline dogperson

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Re: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini Rachmaninoff
Reply #5 on: July 04, 2015, 12:06:30 AM
[quote author=louispodesta link=topic=58741.msg630456#msg630456 date=1435961754

Count your blessings and learn the original form of the Rachmaninoff.  Gosh, you young wonders seem to specialize in focusing on what is the easies
[/quote] 
I'm not sure if we are all discussing the same thing.  I would like to play a solo piano adaptation since I will never have the opportunity to play the entire concerto with an orchestra.  To simply learn the piano score would lose those sections where the melodic line is carried by the orchestra. Why would learning the piano section alone, without adaptation, be enough when there will not be a supporting orchestra ?

Offline iansinclair

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Re: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini Rachmaninoff
Reply #6 on: July 04, 2015, 01:52:01 AM
Might I suggest that if you really have to do this -- as has been said, cutting it is problematic to say the least, from the musical standpoint -- you select particular variations from it which you like, and arrange them more or less intact?  It has somewhat the form of a theme and variations, after all, and the best way to hack that sort of piece up is to select entire variations from the whole thing.

I would also note that to do the music justice, it's going to be a real virtuoso piece.  Nothing easy about it.
Ian

Offline dogperson

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Re: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini Rachmaninoff
Reply #7 on: July 04, 2015, 02:00:55 AM
Might I suggest that if you really have to do this -- as has been said, cutting it is problematic to say the least, from the musical standpoint -- you select particular variations from it which you like, and arrange them more or less intact?  It has somewhat the form of a theme and variations, after all, and the best way to hack that sort of piece up is to select entire variations from the whole thing.

I would also note that to do the music justice, it's going to be a real virtuoso piece.  Nothing easy about it.

My vote would be not 'easy' but virtually 'impossible'  I  would love to see this for Var 10-17 as a piano solo, so there would be a complete set of 10-18 together.

Offline breakup

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Re: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini Rachmaninoff
Reply #8 on: July 04, 2015, 02:19:19 AM

The 18th variation alone is this approx 40 measures.   Are you really discussing making the entire concerto 40 measures ? 

Sorry, I should have been more clear and read more carefully, I was referring to the 18th variation only.   I forgot about the others. 

Offline j_menz

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Re: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini Rachmaninoff
Reply #9 on: July 04, 2015, 02:50:29 AM
Is there any way to make orchestral cuts to shorten it to around 15 (preferbly) or 20 minutes?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Look at the score. There are quite a few concertante pieces where if you hold your nose to the travesty that ensues, large scale bits of orchestral solo stuff can be excised. Rachmaninoff doesn't write like that. The orchestra and the piano are intertwined throughout. If you need to limit the time, pick another piece. Preferably one written entirely within that timeframe -  without cuts.
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Offline superman1980

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Re: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini Rachmaninoff
Reply #10 on: July 04, 2015, 02:54:23 AM
Thank you very much for your answers, however, jmenz was the only one who actually answered my original question to some degree.
Pathetique - Beethoven
Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 - Liszt
Toccata - Bowen
Warrior/Memories in an Ancient Garden - Louie

Offline diomedes

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Re: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini Rachmaninoff
Reply #11 on: July 04, 2015, 03:55:56 AM
Cuts compromise the integrity of the composer. Rachmaninov among many many others truly deserve the respect, or at the very least efforts required to not "modify" the composition. On the other hand, modifying the instrumentation according to the circumstance, that has always been historically part of the picture, hence transcriptions of Erlkonig, Gretchen am Spinnerade or any arrangement of orchestral music for 2 pianos among many others being universally accepted.

I acknowledge your motivation being time related, cut to 15 minutes or so, but this is my view on the subject. Assume the time is out of the picture (which i suggest you do, and i gave the reasons above), incorporate the tutti sections into something of a piano adaption. Even then, frankly you make compromises, because you can't do justice to everything at some points, too much music for 2 hands.

My solution, if the purpose of your work is a recording: Adapt the concerto into one continuous thought, and record the missing musical ideas or threads above it in another recording. That requires strong technological coordination. I'm in the process of doing that with a concerto. I did the initial threat, namely the entire piano part and tutti played on a video recording, that was 90% of the work. I have not had the time but will find it eventually to finish the process. To me, it's by far the best approach to take if you're insistent on concerto repertoire and don't have your orchestra or don't feel like working with a 2nd piano. And of course, maybe you or I or both will be able to summon an orchestra for a performance. I'm not quite ready for it, but i'm working in that direction. It's a possibility, time is a very substantial factor.

If your purpose is a live performance, find a 2nd piano or get other repertoire, do not disrespect the composer, their music deserves the absolute best efforts.
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Offline pianoman1349

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Re: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini Rachmaninoff
Reply #12 on: July 04, 2015, 04:45:30 PM
There is no possible way to cut the orchestral score in a way that makes musical sense and still remain in tact for competition purposes. 

That being said, the rhapsody is actually closer to 22-23 minutes, so it should fit within most competition requirements, if you make minor cuts here and there.  You can PM me if you want the cuts I made (it will only reduce the playing time by 1 minute though).

This really depends on what competition you are entering.  Local music festivals probably wouldn't care.  Some bigger concerto competitions like SYAMF in seattle may have some concerns, but winners in the last two years have won with it and played in their orchestra gala, so it shouldn't be an issue.  In the grander national scale, it really depends on the competition.

Best of luck.
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