returning to piano after a long break: advice on a learning plan wanted

[nish81]

Hi guys - yup, yet another of these posts..but I really would appreciate any advice

so some info on my background. I played piano for around 10 years until I turned 17 and moved countries for university, at which point I kind of lost track of it in all the life disruption. I'm 23 now so it's been a good 6 years. I've played some random pop pieces in between (things like the titanic theme tune, etc) but I'm pretty sure I'm much much worse than I was.

Some info on where I was before: I did the ABRSM exams and finished grade 8 (the last grade) when I was 16. These are UK exams so in case you are unfamiliar with them these are two of the pieces I played for the exam (and scored well enough in):

So I guess the good news is I should remember the posture/hand positioning through this time. But I think everything else about my technique is really rusty. Unfortunately I don't make enough money yet to afford piano lessons (and they are expensive in London UK)

So my question is: are there any paths you guys would recommend someone like me to take to start improving again by myself? Are some things more suited to self-teaching than other things and easier to learn without a teacher? (For example jazz vs classical, sight reading, improvisation, certain types of pieces..). Any books you would recommend? If any of you are teachers, what kind of advice would you give a pupil moving abroad who will have to continue learning by themselves?

Thanks a lot in advance


edit: I should add that my main source of practice is a keyboard with weighted keys (ill soon get a digital piano) but i can play at an acoustic piano for around 2 hours/week

[louispodesta]

I played piano for around 10 years until I turned 17 and moved countries for university, at which point I kind of lost track of it in all the life disruption. I'm 23 now so it's been a good 6 years.

Some info on where I was before: I did the ABRSM exams and finished grade 8 (the last grade) when I was 16. These are UK exams so in case you are unfamiliar with them these are two of the pieces I played for the exam (and scored well enough in):

So I guess the good news is I should remember the posture/hand positioning through this time. But I think everything else about my technique is really rusty. Unfortunately I don't make enough money yet to afford piano lessons (and they are expensive in London UK)

So my question is: are there any paths you guys would recommend someone like me to take to start improving again by myself? Are some things more suited to self-teaching than other things and easier to learn without a teacher? (For example jazz vs classical, sight reading, improvisation, certain types of pieces..). Any books you would recommend? If any of you are teachers, what kind of advice would you give a pupil moving abroad who will have to continue learning by themselves?

edit: I should add that my main source of practice is a keyboard with weighted keys (ill soon get a digital piano) but i can play at an acoustic piano for around 2 hours/week

1) From your youtube video, you obviously have the physical mechanics to play at an advanced level.

2) I am so sick of "Millennia's asking for the easy way to do things.  With my recent major flare-up of psoriatic arthritis, along with my chronic low-level Parkinson's Disease, it darn sure isn't easy for me to practice four hours a day.

3)  When I was in my 30's, my mother would not allow me to practice in her house where the Baldwin Baby Grand was housed.  Therefore, I would take the Bus downtown and have the janitor at the Junior College, where my teacher taught, and then have me sneak me in, after hours.

4)  The point is that you will succeed at the piano, (if you truly desire to do so), when you find out a way to accomplish this task.  The so-called logistical problems on your end, in my opinion, or just another common Millennia excuse.

And, for the record, I was once in my early 20's and more than plenty stupid.  Go figure, you are normal, honestly. 

[indianajo]

I took a 16 year break, between dropping piano to focus on  HighSchool band and then college (physics degree) and buying a house and subsequently a piano.  In between I tried to use various available pianos sometimes, but they usually had action problems and horrible tuning, is why they would let me use them. Junk was not worth the effort.
After I bought the piano I found I had lost coordination and muscle tone, but hadn't forgotten any of the lessons my teacher taught me age 8-16.  I fiddled a little with Czerny School of Velocity to get back in shape, but found Scott Joplin rags a lot more fun.  SJ's rags build the fourth and fifth finger strength quite a bit, which are the ones that atrophy the most.  
After I could play Scott Joplin, I did some JS Bach Inventions I had done, then started retreiving the old performance pieces I had done on recitals.  Once your strength is back the lessons you taught your lower brain all come back, you didn't forget anything.  I sometimes had to figure out my age 14 fingering all over again since I didn't write it down, but once I retrieved those movements the memorization came right back.  I don't memorize by chords or any of those tricks, I just stopped looking at some point. Some people call that "muscle memory" and I really don't see anything wrong with it since it can last for 30 years or more, even over a 16 year gap.  
I've had one lesson since age 32 (at age 64) and that was a waste of money.  She had a ****y Yamaha console with a player disk function, not the grand with middle pedal I had hoped she would have. And I didn't like her emotional suggestions: she wanted me to play Moonlight 1 like I was riding a steamboat around Lake Lucerne at 2 PM, not sculling a rowboat on Lake Constance after dark.  BTW Moonlight 3 was one of my adult dreams, finishing it, and to my satisfaction, I have.  Although I play Moonlight 3 about 1/3 the speed of some of those pros on the CD's.  I'm never going to 4-5 trill that fast, ever.
BTW Scott Joplins is a great conditioning drill that I do four or more times a week.  I just did my standard Magnetic, Paragon, and Maple Leaf rags, and sweat is dripping down my calves.  Makes me breathe to.  Try to get a real acoustic piano, they take more effort than the plastic toys. 
 Best of luck.  

[nish81]

1) From your youtube video, you obviously have the physical mechanics to play at an advanced level.

2) I am so sick of "Millennia's asking for the easy way to do things.  With my recent major flare-up of psoriatic arthritis, along with my chronic low-level Parkinson's Disease, it darn sure isn't easy for me to practice four hours a day.

3)  When I was in my 30's, my mother would not allow me to practice in her house where the Baldwin Baby Grand was housed.  Therefore, I would take the Bus downtown and have the janitor at the Junior College, where my teacher taught, and then have me sneak me in, after hours.

4)  The point is that you will succeed at the piano, (if you truly desire to do so), when you find out a way to accomplish this task.  The so-called logistical problems on your end, in my opinion, or just another common Millennia excuse.

And, for the record, I was once in my early 20's and more than plenty stupid.  Go figure, you are normal, honestly. 

Thanks for the advice. I think you may have misunderstood some parts of my post though.

1) That video was not me playing the piece - they're just recordings of pieces that I knew how to play when I was at my 'best' at 17 so that you get an idea of what sort of things might be appropriate for me to self-teach.

2-4) I am not citing any logistical problems. I do have the time and inclination to practice, that is not the issue. I am asking for ideas on what sort of things are more suited to self-teaching. For example, a teacher might say that it's easier to self-teach jazz than classical; or someone might be able to recommend a very good book to work through by oneself; etc. I don't see what's lazy about asking for advice on what to study before putting effort into it. The fact that I can't afford a teacher is unfortunately down to my financial situation.

[nish81]

I took a 16 year break, between dropping piano to focus on  HighSchool band and then college (physics degree) and buying a house and subsequently a piano.  In between I tried to use various available pianos sometimes, but they usually had action problems and horrible tuning, is why they would let me use them. Junk was not worth the effort.
After I bought the piano I found I had lost coordination and muscle tone, but hadn't forgotten any of the lessons my teacher taught me age 8-16.  I fiddled a little with Czerny School of Velocity to get back in shape, but found Scott Joplin rags a lot more fun.  SJ's rags build the fourth and fifth finger strength quite a bit, which are the ones that atrophy the most.  
After I could play Scott Joplin, I did some JS Bach Inventions I had done, then started retreiving the old performance pieces I had done on recitals.  Once your strength is back the lessons you taught your lower brain all come back, you didn't forget anything.  I sometimes had to figure out my age 14 fingering all over again since I didn't write it down, but once I retrieved those movements the memorization came right back.  I don't memorize by chords or any of those tricks, I just stopped looking at some point. Some people call that "muscle memory" and I really don't see anything wrong with it since it can last for 30 years or more, even over a 16 year gap.  
I've had one lesson since age 32 (at age 64) and that was a waste of money.  She had a ****y Yamaha console with a player disk function, not the grand with middle pedal I had hoped she would have. And I didn't like her emotional suggestions: she wanted me to play Moonlight 1 like I was riding a steamboat around Lake Lucerne at 2 PM, not sculling a rowboat on Lake Constance after dark.  BTW Moonlight 3 was one of my adult dreams, finishing it, and to my satisfaction, I have.  Although I play Moonlight 3 about 1/3 the speed of some of those pros on the CD's.  I'm never going to 4-5 trill that fast, ever.
BTW Scott Joplins is a great conditioning drill that I do four or more times a week.  I just did my standard Magnetic, Paragon, and Maple Leaf rags, and sweat is dripping down my calves.  Makes me breathe to.  Try to get a real acoustic piano, they take more effort than the plastic toys. 
 Best of luck.  

Thanks for the advice! Some SJ rags would be a fun place to start, I've always wanted to learn them.

Did you find it easy to figure out how to add depth to a piece yourself, without help from a teacher? I'm referring to things like phrasing, emotional cues, dynamics when they weren't provided, etc - this is the biggest area where I think I'll feel the lack of a teacher..

[dcstudio]

never going to 4-5 trill that fast, ever.

yea, that one is tough... lol. 

[indianajo]

Thanks for the advice! Some SJ rags would be a fun place to start, I've always wanted to learn them.
Did you find it easy to figure out how to add depth to a piece yourself, without help from a teacher? I'm referring to things like phrasing, emotional cues, dynamics when they weren't provided, etc - this is the biggest area where I think I'll feel the lack of a teacher..

The Scott Joplin revival was started by Joshua Rifkin in 1970 on Nonesuch records. I heard his performances on FM radio, liked the pieces, bought a Belwin book at the music store with Paragon and Magnetic Rags in it.  However, his performances remind me of Telleman or some boroque harpsichord artist, tinkle tinkle tinkle.
Then Marvin Hamlisch got Entertainer on the radio about 1974 with the movie of that name.  He started and stopped, sped up and slowed down, I thought he sounded like Chopin doing American bar music.  Totally inappropriate expression IMHO. 
So I play Scott Joplin my own way. Not blindingly fast, but plenty stretches of steady tempo, with a dramatic pause or a fermata every now and then between sections.  I heard 10 seconds of Willie the Lion Smith do Fats Waller's Fingerbuster on PVS television, he had a driving rhythm like a train.  But unlike the piano rolls that SJ actually recorded, I make volume variations, and accent certain notes, especially where the chords expand from the V root.  It is totally my own interpretation, informed more by Carl King the march King circus music from the same era, other circus composers, than Rifkin or Hamlin,  It is kind of my own way, and I enjoy it.
You can do the same to pieces you learn, put your own stamp on them.  One thing about being 65, I have a lot more emotions to express music with, than I did when I was 16.  I don't need a teacher to tell me how it is supposed to be done.  At my age, I don't care what the schools teach.  Sometimes I copy a performance sort of off a record- Pictures at an Exhibition I'm sort of following Fritz Rheiner and the Chicago Symphony 1958, in my piano performance.  But Scott Joplin nothing on record is as cool as the way I do it. 
Have fun with your art.   

[adodd81802]

This may be a tad obvious, but here goes.

I'm in a similar position to yourself. Played the piano heavily between around 9 and 16, left school to pursue other things and never got back into it. I played here and there bits and pieces but from a performance level they were very amateur.

I picked up a cheap upright a few weeks back and thought exactly the same thing, how to really get back into it. The cost of a good teacher has changed quite a lot in 10 years (I sadly found out!) and for me I really want to go full steam into catching up and surpassing my previous ability so the amount of lessons i'd want to get through isn't financially viable to me.

So, in my mind the most practical way to get to that position in my circumstances was this;
BACK TO BASICS!

Go to ABRSM (The Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music) you may already know, run the syllabus for examinations and in particular provide this handy documentation https://us.abrsm.org/fileadmin/user_upload/syllabuses/pianoSyllabusComplete15.pdf to give you an idea of what is expected each exam. Worth having a little read through, see if you can get hold some of the examination pieces and get some media support for perfecting the play, youtube etc. getting back into the feel of scales, articulation, to reapply the solid foundations to give you a good starting block. (assuming you want to properly get back into it) I've just purchased a set of exam books to see how I go and even considering taken the exam off my own self teaching.

on paper i'm grade 3 (i didn't like exams lol) however from a playing level i'm currently going through a list of Chopin music starts at Nocturne OP 27 no.2. I use the term "playing" loosely as my performances are rather sloppy at best, but in my opinion learning to be great isn't always about having a great teacher, it's about having the right knowledge and applying it in a way that suits you best.

I hope that helps. let me state i am by no way saying you can learn better without a teacher. But if like me it's not an option, there are sensible ways around that can still get you to the level you wish to be.

[nish81]

You can do the same to pieces you learn, put your own stamp on them. 
Have fun with your art.   

Thanks again for the very helpful reply. I see what you mean, art is more individualistic than some might have you believe. Very helpful, thank you!

[nish81]

This may be a tad obvious, but here goes.

I'm in a similar position to yourself. Played the piano heavily between around 9 and 16, left school to pursue other things and never got back into it. I played here and there bits and pieces but from a performance level they were very amateur.

I picked up a cheap upright a few weeks back and thought exactly the same thing, how to really get back into it. The cost of a good teacher has changed quite a lot in 10 years (I sadly found out!) and for me I really want to go full steam into catching up and surpassing my previous ability so the amount of lessons i'd want to get through isn't financially viable to me.

So, in my mind the most practical way to get to that position in my circumstances was this;
BACK TO BASICS!

Go to ABRSM (The Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music) you may already know, run the syllabus for examinations and in particular provide this handy documentation https://us.abrsm.org/fileadmin/user_upload/syllabuses/pianoSyllabusComplete15.pdf to give you an idea of what is expected each exam. Worth having a little read through, see if you can get hold some of the examination pieces and get some media support for perfecting the play, youtube etc. getting back into the feel of scales, articulation, to reapply the solid foundations to give you a good starting block. (assuming you want to properly get back into it) I've just purchased a set of exam books to see how I go and even considering taken the exam off my own self teaching.

on paper i'm grade 3 (i didn't like exams lol) however from a playing level i'm currently going through a list of Chopin music starts at Nocturne OP 27 no.2. I use the term "playing" loosely as my performances are rather sloppy at best, but in my opinion learning to be great isn't always about having a great teacher, it's about having the right knowledge and applying it in a way that suits you best.

I hope that helps. let me state i am by no way saying you can learn better without a teacher. But if like me it's not an option, there are sensible ways around that can still get you to the level you wish to be.

Thanks for the response adodd81802! I did take the 8 grades of ABRSM exams when I used to play while younger so I'm familiar with the syllabus and still have my old books..I guess they wouldn't be a bad place to start

[dcstudio]

step 1 is to get back into a routine of playing every day... 
step 2 is to get over whatever self- frustration made you quit the first time...

you have most likely forgotten... that's why you're back...   

[gustaaavo]

I'd suggest that you study some pieces that you really love (and which don't seem impossible at this point). Maybe you could even find a balance with one or two pieces which will be easy for you and one or two which will be a challenge.

As for interpretation issues without a teacher, you are not doomed. Some suggestions:
1. Take advantage of IMSLP, study various editions at all stages of learning. As your main edition (the one you'll print) use the most authorative (i.e. urtext) one possible (you can ask here for advice on that matter); you may even want to buy one (because it still has copyrights or for the pleasure of having the book). But editions where the editor took more liberties (mostly old) are a great source of ideas (for example, any edition of Godowsky, von Bülow or Busoni is, for me at least, a marvel). Nevertheless, you'll have to decide which suggestions you'll follow and which not.
2. Sporadically record yourself playing what you've learned of the pieces. Listen, take note of what you want to improve, and record it again. Repeat until you're satisfied (or when, by excessive repetition, the process becomes counterproductive). Some hours or days later listen to the final recording of the session (it does not have to be a definitive recording of the piece, it may even only be a recording of one passage) and see if there's anything else you want to change.
3. Listen to a lot of music. Pianists, singers, orchestras, string players, anything (preferably unquestionable geniuses, e.g. Celidibache, Richter, Fischer-Dieskau, Rubinstein, Fürtwangler, Casals, Arrau…). The “normal” process is that you study with a teacher until your musical taste is good enough to make good decisions. Before that, you rely on your teacher’s taste. So it may be that you haven’t reached that stage but, nevertheless, your taste will improve with time simply by paying attention to what the masters do. You may want to try following scores while you listen.

Besides, you shouldn't take for granted the technique you developed as a child. I suggest you read some good books on the subject (there are some classic books on piano playing by old legends, like Lhevinne, Hofmann, Gieseking and Neuhaus, as well as more modern treatises: the more the better) and be really self-aware of your body while practicing. Thomas Mark's "What every pianist needs to know about the body" may be quite useful.

As for technical exercises, scales, arpeggios, etc., they may of course be of great benefit. Nevertheless, don´t let them become drudgery. Sight-reading can be very beneficial also.

Finally, don’t follow any advice (including mine) blindly.

[louispodesta]

What is it with you guys?  Do you not sit at the same piano I do?  Why do you always strive for the easy way out?

Accordingly, a modicum of mastery of the piano is a question of hand/eye coordination mechanics.  Your personal "feelings" have nothing to with the end result.  Either you can play, or you cannot!

Self-taught? - well that makes a huge difference depending on whether you can make up your mind just what genre you want to pursue.  If it is jazz or popular piano (no disrespect), then you of course can pursue a course of self-study.

If it is classical, then it takes years of formal training AND DISCIPLINE before one can go it on their own.  I have been there, and I am there!
 

[dcstudio]

What is it with you guys?  Do you not sit at the same piano I do?  Why do you always strive for the easy way out?

 Either you can play, or you cannot!



 DISCIPLINE
 

ahhhhh  what?     that D word???   

nope these days you just have to show up---there are ribbons and trophies for all...

[maxyim]

Honestly, just pick a few pieces that you really want to play, and then prioritize them in an order that allows you to build on your knowledge and constantly improve your proficiency.  I took a similar route as you did (long break), and I know from experience that the only thing that will keep me behind a piano for an extended time period is a profound interest in what I am playing, and the vision of how I will feel once I have mastered it in front of a crowd.  If you are anything like me, this will keep you focused and less likely to relapse into another break.

I am probably not a good resource for you though in terms of recommending what pieces to look at, as my own repertoire is rather small.  If you are into chordal music and like Rachmaninoff, then C#Minor > BMinor > GMinor is a strong progression, with each succeeding piece several magnitudes more difficult (well BMinor and GMinor are difficult for different reasons, but BMinor probably slightly more approachable).  If you prefer deep melodic pieces, take a look at Chopin Prelude in C#Minor Op. 45, Rach DMajor and G#Minor, and Rach Tableaux 8 and in that order.  Some quick videos for reference:

Also, find a good teacher, even if it's for only one lesson a month.  Trust me.

[louispodesta]

ahhhhh  what?     that D word???   

nope these days you just have to show up---there are ribbons and trophies for all...

Thank you for your response.

Just today, with my massive psoriatic arthritis staring me in the face every day, I started the finishing touches of my memorizing and mastering the Debussy Fanstasy.

Then, in the afternoon, I once again plodded through, with some success of the third movement of the Rach 2nd.  After that, I took a small break, and then I fine-tuned portions of the Debussy Reverie.

As a classically trained pianist/social activist philosopher, I will give it to you straight:  Playing the piano is a particular mindset (epistemology), just like everything else in life.

[dcstudio]

As a classically trained pianist/social activist philosopher, I will give it to you straight:  Playing the piano is a particular mindset (epistemology), just like everything else in life.

preaching to the choir, my friend.   I started piano lessons when LBJ was president.   

[nish81]

step 1 is to get back into a routine of playing every day... 
step 2 is to get over whatever self- frustration made you quit the first time...

you have most likely forgotten... that's why you're back...   

hehe nice point of view, I expect I will find out soon enough

I'd suggest that you study some pieces that you really love (and which don't seem impossible at this point). Maybe you could even find a balance with one or two pieces which will be easy for you and one or two which will be a challenge.

As for interpretation issues without a teacher, you are not doomed. Some suggestions:
1. Take advantage of IMSLP, study various editions at all stages of learning. As your main edition (the one you'll print) use the most authorative (i.e. urtext) one possible (you can ask here for advice on that matter); you may even want to buy one (because it still has copyrights or for the pleasure of having the book). But editions where the editor took more liberties (mostly old) are a great source of ideas (for example, any edition of Godowsky, von Bülow or Busoni is, for me at least, a marvel). Nevertheless, you'll have to decide which suggestions you'll follow and which not.
2. Sporadically record yourself playing what you've learned of the pieces. Listen, take note of what you want to improve, and record it again. Repeat until you're satisfied (or when, by excessive repetition, the process becomes counterproductive). Some hours or days later listen to the final recording of the session (it does not have to be a definitive recording of the piece, it may even only be a recording of one passage) and see if there's anything else you want to change.
3. Listen to a lot of music. Pianists, singers, orchestras, string players, anything (preferably unquestionable geniuses, e.g. Celidibache, Richter, Fischer-Dieskau, Rubinstein, Fürtwangler, Casals, Arrau…). The “normal” process is that you study with a teacher until your musical taste is good enough to make good decisions. Before that, you rely on your teacher’s taste. So it may be that you haven’t reached that stage but, nevertheless, your taste will improve with time simply by paying attention to what the masters do. You may want to try following scores while you listen.

Besides, you shouldn't take for granted the technique you developed as a child. I suggest you read some good books on the subject (there are some classic books on piano playing by old legends, like Lhevinne, Hofmann, Gieseking and Neuhaus, as well as more modern treatises: the more the better) and be really self-aware of your body while practicing. Thomas Mark's "What every pianist needs to know about the body" may be quite useful.

As for technical exercises, scales, arpeggios, etc., they may of course be of great benefit. Nevertheless, don´t let them become drudgery. Sight-reading can be very beneficial also.

Finally, don’t follow any advice (including mine) blindly.

Thank you for the useful tips, I will be taking them!

[nish81]

What is it with you guys?  Do you not sit at the same piano I do?  Why do you always strive for the easy way out?

Accordingly, a modicum of mastery of the piano is a question of hand/eye coordination mechanics.  Your personal "feelings" have nothing to with the end result.  Either you can play, or you cannot!

Self-taught? - well that makes a huge difference depending on whether you can make up your mind just what genre you want to pursue.  If it is jazz or popular piano (no disrespect), then you of course can pursue a course of self-study.

If it is classical, then it takes years of formal training AND DISCIPLINE before one can go it on their own.  I have been there, and I am there!
 

You might be a great pianist but I get the feeling your reading comprehension needs some work. I don't think anyone has mentioned the easy way out. But if it gives you pleasure to be self-righteous in my thread then by all means carry on

[louispodesta]

You are the one who keeps using the term "self-teaching."  This infers that you think you have , as I have referenced, the prior training or knowledge to accomplish this task.  You do not!

In our PC world, anyone who even attempts to reference a centuries old standard of pedagogy is ostracized.

If you think you can get there from here by trying this and trying and that, I know what the results will not be.  And, there are hundreds of thousands of piano teachers out there whose students are trying to do the same thing, and with the same non-results.

Self-righteous?  You are the one assuming that anyone before you has accomplished your goal.  They have not.  Name one.

[chopinlover01]

Hah. Rejecting the common method of piano teaching isn't being PC, it's just a different approach (that usually doesn't work as well).
Nobody has completed their goal? The only thing he said about his goal was improving. You're being very dismissive, and saying "this way is the only way you can do this".
@OP Pick up the Bach two part inventions, Clementi sonatinas, Kuhlau sonatinas, Mozart sonatas, early Beethoven. It's a good basis for your technique, starting out again and all.

[dcstudio]

as much as I may regret saying this...

in my years of teaching...every now and then I would pick up a student who could just "do it."  They picked things up very very quickly... and from day 1 they made music.. 

I had a 16 yr old girl start taking lessons and on the third week she took home the minute waltz and brought it back the next week memorized... (yes...she was Asian..lol)    she had played the violin most of her life so she had a solid foundation already... but she was amazing.

I had a Dr. come in who was taking lessons while waiting for his license to come in from Argentina or somewhere--anyway he had never had formal training but geez could he play that salsa stuff.  He learned to read music in like 3 weeks I swear--he started picking up Beethoven sonatas and Joplin rags -- it took him a little while to polish them up but he did it.

There was a boy with assberger's syndrome I taught for a while... on the first lesson he sat banging his head against the wall.  The next week I was teaching him a d harmonic minor scale ( yes he had already been taking lessons) anyway--  we had been studying the first invention--he started improvising in a baroque style using both hands and demonstrating the parallel, contrary, and oblique motion we had been discussing...and using the d harmonic minor scale...   Freaked me out... I went and got every other teacher from the studio to hear him..



I hate to say it's impossible...  but these people were the exception...really 3 out of 300 literally.

[amytsuda]

I feel familiar with OP's post. I didn't play for 25 years, and around age 40 (4 years ago), I picked it up again. I didn't start a lesson till a year and half ago, because of my heavy traveling also I didn't have a good teacher when I was a kid and had no idea what teachers would add. I started taking lessons again, because I thought it may help my phrasing, different tone colors, etc. My playing was crude and awful.

Since then it has been a rough path. First, the thing about phrasing, artistic expression, and all the wonderful things. I realized there are two levels, 1) do I know what expressions I want to add? 2) can I actually execute what I want? In a year and half with lessons, I learned tons for the question 1), but when it comes to 2), I see a progress of a snail. I read theory books and listened to tons of YouTube videos, and realized what is inhibiting me is the complete lack of technical foundation to actually add phrasing.

Secondly, I learned what it takes to actually fix my technical foundation. Patient slow practice of every phrase paying attention to every tension in fingers, hands, arms, shoulders, body balance, how to split brain into multiple voices, consistency of sounds in scales, arpeggios, trills, legato, knowing every finger balance in a big chord....and then, putting all the tiny phrases together into one structure and understanding the whole coordination to transition from one to the next. It used to take less than a month to play a whole sonata from memory for me before (and play poorly), now it takes 6 months to learn one movement (and still play poorly). And teachers are necessary, they are like a technician adjusting every detail.

Third, I learned that most teachers are not tolerant with a hobbyist. I love music, but they are not there to just talk about music for fun. They are there to train you, or you become a dreaded student.

After going through all these, what I would say saves my joy of playing piano and music is my ability to sightread. It is not possible for me to become a professional pianist, but that wasn't the goal in the first place. I am simply a fanatic music fan and supporter to musicians (going to tons of concerts), and playing piano for me was singing in a Karaoke box. Taking piano lessons really screwed my mind because they treat as if we are not allowed to play piano unless we strive for a perfect playing.

So my advice to OP is just find scores of everything you like and play them. Scores are all online free. Go with your curiosity about various pieces and read about them and composers. Spend time just with scores so you can start seeing what composers are doing.

Also find other instrumentalists to play together. My sight reading is handy, because in gathering with friends and family, I can just search a piece on iPad and accompany a violinist or flutist or whatever. And it's a lot of fun. I am trying to learn jazz patterns slowly so I can one day improvise too.

Since we, adult amateurs, are very unlikely to achieve the level of piano performance quality required to perform, I think it is the best for us to focus on learning how to enjoy music making at our own levels. Sight reading, improvisation and ensembles.

[dcstudio]

Secondly, I learned what it takes to actually fix my technical foundation. Patient slow practice of every phrase paying attention to every tension in fingers, hands, arms, shoulders, body balance, how to split brain into multiple voices, consistency of sounds in scales, arpeggios, trills, legato, knowing every finger balance in a big chord....and then, putting all the tiny phrases together into one structure and understanding the whole coordination to transition from one to the next. It used to take less than a month to play a whole sonata from memory for me before (and play poorly), now it takes 6 months to learn one movement (and still play poorly). And teachers are necessary, they are like a technician adjusting every detail.

as much as I admire your enthusiasm...and I do.   Be careful not to make things more complicated than they need be.  I have seen so many adult returning students decide that they had no technical foundation and become obsessed with it.    

if you become too focused on the minute details there's a real tendency to lose musicality...which is far more important---actually vital to "not playing poorly."   I am not saying don't pursue improving your technical abilities--by all means, do--just remember that as you improve a lot of those technical issues will resolve themselves.  

Keep at it... it's not like a slow incline where you get better at a steady rate....  it's more like crashing through a wall after you've beat yourself against it a few 100 times..  then you sail along for a while and everything's great until BAM--you hit another one.  

whatever wall you were struggling with 25 years ago is still there waiting...lol.  I am guessing that you were trying to play something back then and it was too demanding technically for you which made you frustrated??  what were you working on before you stopped?

usually adults have made another excuse for quitting--I moved, I got into sports, drama, boys...whatever...  there is only one reason people quit playing--because they don't enjoy it anymore...for whatever reason.  Otherwise there is nothing that can stop them from finding a way to stay with it...come hell or high water...they find a piano.

[amytsuda]

whatever wall you were struggling with 25 years ago is still there waiting...lol.  

  I was forced to quit by a feminist single mom who insisted that music will make me really poor and she had no interest in spending money on and taking care of a fallen musician....I didn't have a technical training to know technical walls other than my hands were small for some repertoires (barely touch 10th).....now I learned how difficult it is at this middle age! And I kind of thank my mom...

[dcstudio]

I was forced to quit by a feminist single mom who insisted that music will make me really poor and she had no interest in spending money on and taking care of a fallen musician...

  lol

well, that will give you a complex about your playing for sure...   in your mind that sets up a scenario whereby practicing the piano will cause you to become a "fallen" ... person... (gotta say...really interesting choice of words your mom used...)  I am not saying she did anything malicious or cruel...  just that--there's the wall I told you about...lol  

when I would get a returning adult student we would always go over the reasons why they had left in the first place...  if it was a piece of music they failed at--we could fix that.   If mom or dad fit in the equation anywhere...  we had to go a little deeper...

I am thinking this just might have something to do with your being unsure on the technical side of things---a part of music that your strong feminist single mother could relate to more easily than the abstract creative part.?  The technical side will prevent you from "falling" ?--just guessing and you don't need to answer.

people have no idea how many hang-ups they store in connection with their music lessons as a child.  

So basically you have to think along the lines of--Mom would be proud now of your playing...  you  are a success at life and so now you can be a successful musician as well..

now--I am no psychologist... just an old teacher whose insight--or lack there of-- you are free to ignore..

best of luck to you

[amytsuda]

  @dcstudio, you should be a psychologist!

But I think the hang up on technical ability is not due to my childhood but more of last year and half of piano lessons, because I was happily playing before that (in fact I am still happily playing at home). I think it is due to those previously virtuoso (male) piano teachers who are so focused on sending kids to competitions and top conservatories. I got beaten quite badly.

My post was reacting to some of replies to the OP who wants to get back to piano, saying he can only get back by getting a teacher.

I never stop playing the piano, now I got a grand piano I always dreamed of and it is sitting there, how can I resist! I was simply suggesting that OP to focus on sight reading, improvisations and ensembles, because with those abilities you never have to stop playing piano and you can always find friends to play music together, even if your piano teacher doesn't think you deserve playing.

[dcstudio]

I got beaten quite badly.

I call it "musical neurosis" and it happened to me at music school.  

that feeling of worthlessness that you got when you didn't please your virtuoso teacher...I am very familiar with that...lol... and I haven't taken a piano lesson in more than 20 years...

my last teacher was a Russian schooled virtuoso who defected to the US--there was still a USSR at the time....  she said to me...in her very thick accent..

"...all my students are bad this year...but you...you are ze worst!"

I dropped out soon after...lol..and she was right actually... I sucked.  I took about a 4 year break and worked as a casino dealer.  I finally went out and bought a piano one day...and then about a month later my husband and I both lost our jobs.  Well the very next day I got a phone call stating that we had won 5k in music equipment--(a sweepstakes I entered once--6 months earlier).   The following day my husband's bass student said his buddy opened a restaurant and wanted a jazz band...  so just like that... I was a musician once again with a brand new keyboard and amp and a gig 4 nights a week.

true story. that has nothing to do with the topic at hand really... except that I stopped playing for a while and came back. 

If it's meant to be it will be.

[sabtan]

To the OP:

First of all, kudos for you going back after all these years.

I finished my ATCL ( performance diploma exams fm Trinity) when I was 16, and like you, went to different countries for university, moved jobs, moved states, got settled down, bought a house then finally able to afford a piano. All these took me 13 years before I went back to it again.

I decided that I needed lessons, and initially teacher was skeptical at my level. Been out of it for so long you tend to lose some flexibility etc.
But after all this while, am tackling the LTCL exams this year and thoroughly enjoyed my learning process.

I am sorry to hear not many people have many luck with good teachers. I was fortunate to have found a good teacher, to inspire me to appreciate the music I'm playing, to understand the composers' expressions, and to cultivate a sense of appreciation in all the classical music that I listen.

I do encourage a lot of listening to recordings though. When I am preparing for my repertoire, I listened to numerous recordings of the pieces that I am prepping for, by different pianists'.
It gives you a sense of what's good for you and what's not.

While I understand financially it may be steep to afford regular lessons from a teacher, so just carry on going back to basics on your own. Like others have suggested, back to scales/ Czerny etc Beethoven/ Mozart sonatas and try tackling a few pieces that you like/ aspire to learn.
However I do suggest once when financially able, do try to find a good teacher. Even if you can't afford regular lessons, at least you'll need a someone to mentor you along the way.

Don't give up

[louispodesta]

Per the original thesis of the OP, which I continue to define as the "Millennia" easy way out, I reference parts of my personal experience.  It was not easy, and lately, it has been horrific with my psoriatic arthritis flare-up.  And, add to that the chronic low-level Parkinson's Disease.

When I was in my 20's, because, when I was a little boy, my father used to practice four hour a night after he had his dinner, after his death (at my age of 17), my mother (not a feminist) decided to pay me back!

So, from that point on, given an exquisite 65 year Baldwin Baby Grand, which I play today, I was not allowed to practice in her home, when she was present.  That meant the following:

1)  I had to take the city bus to downtown San Antonio (1 hour trip) and the have the janitor sneak me in after hours to my teacher's studio so I could practice for two hours.  After that, because I did not want another bus ride home, I would literally hitch-hike home.

2)  In my 30's, I practiced during the day, when my mother was a work, and I did not take back the study of the piano until I was in my 50's.

THE POINT!!!!  From a true personal belief in a Fine Art, emanates a true personal discipline for which there is no substitute.

[louispodesta]

Oh, and I almost forgot:  During my 30's, my late piano teacher, Robert Weaver (Ithaca, UT Austin) taught me for 15 years (three hour lessons) for free!  And, that is why I have a singing tone.

Most teachers, who recognize a true level of dedication in a student without sufficient means, will and are doing the same.  For the record, the late Earl Wild never charged a fee for a Master Class.

[dcstudio]

Oh, and I almost forgot:  During my 30's, my late piano teacher, Robert Weaver (Ithaca, UT Austin) taught me for 15 years (three hour lessons) for free!  And, that is why I have a singing tone.

Most teachers, who recognize a true level of dedication in a student without sufficient means, will and are doing the same.  For the record, the late Earl Wild never charged a fee for a Master Class.

yes because really our favorite thing in the world is to see someone else who loves what we love...
and it's really really wonderful to be able to discuss more complex concepts with someone who is mature enough to understand...  it is truly what kept me teaching at times.

all day--one kid after another... Moonlight Sonata.. Minuet in G...Turkey in the straw...  I"I couldn't practice this week--my sister had the flu"  ?   

and then in walks the committed adult student...  everything neatly in order...   having done exactly what you asked of him...  doesn't cry when you try to correct him  ...  asks pertinent questions--and is so excited to show you how much he improved this week...  you feel so great when you hear him play because he is better than he was last week...  way better... 

I have had several students I would have happily taught for free...  

so a hint...  brush up on your music history and your theory so you can make good conversation with a teacher---don't try to fool him by speaking above what you know, because he will catch on right away that you are full o' baloney...   it's really exciting to get a student who knows a little bit... just don't act cocky...lol...   you can talk his fee down considerably if you do it right... and he's a softie like me..  show your dedication... 

[amytsuda]

That's so true. My teacher when I was small was not a pianist so he didn't teach me anything technical, but he was doing a charity for me and taught me so many composers, gave me tons of scores, let me listen tons of LPs and even took me to concerts. He was a Bach baritone and taught me all about counter points and fugues etc. I was too young and he was like a grandpa, but that's probably why I can sightread. Probably wasn't the right teacher to generate professional pianists, but now looking back, it was the right teacher for me afterall.

[dcstudio]

taught me all about counter points and fugues etc

oh please, not the counter points .   sorry but that's just too funny to resist.

[sabtan]

Do think it's unfair to generalise the millennials taking the "easy" way out.

Not all millenials, including myself, believe in taking the easy way out and do try to put in the hard yards to achieve what we want.

Not everyone can afford lessons initially, so better that they try to brush up basics until they can afford them. Some may be so lucky to find teachers who are willing to teach for free, or for peanuts. But that's up to the generosity of the teachers, not a general expectation.

[keypeg]

Be careful not to make things more complicated than they need be.  I have seen so many adult returning students decide that they had no technical foundation and become obsessed with it.    

if you become too focused on the minute details there's a real tendency to lose musicality...which is far more important---actually vital to "not playing poorly."   I am not saying don't pursue improving your technical abilities--by all means, do--just remember that as you improve a lot of those technical issues will resolve themselves.  

I am not going to disagree with you because you are citing a true side to an issue which is not that straightforward.  On the one hand, a student can become obsessed with "perfect technique" and tie themselves into knots.  It can be like trying to "walk perfectly", controlling every micro-motion, which would create an unsteady awkward looking walk.    Or it can be seen as a series of formulas: the "playing crescendo technique", the "staccato with wrist" technique.  As I say, I won't disagree, but I will offer other sides to this.

The pursuit of the technical side has been very important to me, and also a source of frustration to even get proper access to it.  I ran into barricades: that I was "overthinking", my questions being diverted, technical instruction being largely skirted in my first lessons on a different instrument.  There is a saying, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."  So I can say that I was right in what I sought (and fortunately finally found good teaching for these things).

There are two sides of the coin, and your quote below, if I understand it correctly, may be that other side:

....as you improve a lot of those technical issues will resolve themselves.

One side of the coin is this:  I'm playing, imagining a crescendo, doing this and that, and over time that crescendo emerges.  Somehow my body has found its way through trial and error: my ear, my imagination, my feelings, and my hands have all cooperated.  It is like the baby who tries and tries, and eventually gets that biscuit into its mouth every time effortlessly.  The nerves, muscles, and senses all evolve because that is their nature.  I think this is the kind of thing that you are describing - am I right?

Here is the other side of the coin.  Again, I'm imagining this crescendo, which I feel as increasing passion and anger - so I tense my body increasingly, and pound ever more with stiff arm and fingers according to how I feel, and indeed, a crescendo arises.  This, too, becomes habit.  I'm sure you see the problem in that.   What if crescendo involves a relaxed body but increased amount of arm and hand being used in a loose, whip-like motion, and what if loudness involved speed more than brute force - and what if this is counter-intuitive and I'd never get there on my own?

Essentially the second is my scenario. 

I see another side of the coin in this too:

if you become too focused on the minute details there's a real tendency to lose musicality...which is far more important.

I agree to the idea of focus on minute detail not being good.  But I'd like to go past this to the more general idea of learning good movement (technique).  I did not have the experience of oppressive detail-oriented teachers --- I had total spontaneity and freedom since I had no teacher and was self-taught.  So I need to counter-balance the other way.  In so doing, I am learning physical technical things, and also things like counting, refining counting for rubato, analyzing the music and doing things very deliberately and technically.  There are stages of unmusical playing and this is deliberately so.  It might involve very strict counting at a very slow speed.  It can involve going very mechanically through a physical motion.  The result is unmusical.  But after that the underlying skill is there for the timing, and for the physical motion.  The first stage is that our crescendo might be produced mechanically and only carry away the listener to some degree.  But in a later stage, as feeling gets married to this new control, you get more than what only feeling your way through might give you.

I hope this makes sense.

[dcstudio]

@ Amy

I noticed your current rep at the bottom of your post... you are pretty advanced.  I'm sure you have a technical foundation that is stronger than you realize.

@Keypeg--lol---hiya!  we've had this conversation.  I thought of you a bit when I posted that...

[keypeg]

@ Amy

@Keypeg--lol---hiya!  we've had this conversation.  I thought of you a bit when I posted that...

So what do you think? 

[maxyim]

Good Lord people.  I understand that your hearts are in the right place, but you have essentially hijacked this poor guy's request for help thread in order to talk about yourselves.  It's very nice that certain things worked and continue to work for you, but that does not mean that they are the best fit for everyone.  I would suggest that you take a step back and evaluate just what your purpose is here.

[dcstudio]

we were supposed to have a purpose?    ooops

[louispodesta]

Good Lord people.  I understand that your hearts are in the right place, but you have essentially hijacked this poor guy's request for help thread in order to talk about yourselves.  It's very nice that certain things worked and continue to work for you, but that does not mean that they are the best fit for everyone.  I would suggest that you take a step back and evaluate just what your purpose is here.

["So my question is: are there any paths you guys would recommend someone like me to take to start improving again by myself? Are some things more suited to self-teaching than other things and easier to learn without a teacher? (For example jazz vs classical, sight reading, improvisation, certain types of pieces..). Any books you would recommend? If any of you are teachers, what kind of advice would you give a pupil moving abroad who will have to continue learning by themselves?"]

I didn't say that, the OP did!

Therefore, not intentionally meaning to use an often used philosophical big word (which is what I am!) the OP directly asked for advice regarding the epistemology of playing the piano by someone who had more than the usual training.  The words self-taught were the OP's.

To dumb it down, vis a vis "dcstudio," you cannot have it both ways, in regards the piano, and also life in general.  That is what I meant by the usual Millennial promoting the current myth that you can have whatever you choose in terms of a logical argument, and then have it come to fruition.

[louispodesta]

In regards of my use of the term: "dumb it down," absolutely no disrespect to "dcstudio."

[keypeg]

I think that the OP intends to self-teach / do piano on his/her own now, but I think that the OP must have had a teacher in the past, given the ABRSM exams up to the grade 8 level, and a couple of other comments in the opening post.

[dcstudio]

In regards of my use of the term: "dumb it down," absolutely no disrespect to "dcstudio."

none taken      I must admit... I really cannot completely empathize with the beginner because I have almost no memory of life without the piano.  I am sure there are some things I just don't understand.

[keypeg]

none taken      I must admit... I really cannot completely empathize with the beginner because I have almost no memory of life without the piano.  I am sure there are some things I just don't understand.

The OP played piano for ten years and passed grade 8 ABRSM exams, and has been away from the piano for 6 years.  There is no beginner in this thread.  Some kind of misunderstanding seems to be going on in the last few posts unless I'm reading the responses wrong.  The OP does want to work on his own right now (self-teach) but already seems to have an extensive background.  I don't think you can do the ABRSM without also having a teacher.  At least, when I did the RCM exams there was a place for writing down who your teacher was.

[dcstudio]

There is no beginner in this thread. 

yes..duh

I've been posting too much..thought I was on another thread

heartfelt apologies...

[keypeg]

You don't want to know the duds I've been posting lately.  Let's blame the weather. 

[nish81]

Good Lord people.  I understand that your hearts are in the right place, but you have essentially hijacked this poor guy's request for help thread in order to talk about yourselves.  It's very nice that certain things worked and continue to work for you, but that does not mean that they are the best fit for everyone.  I would suggest that you take a step back and evaluate just what your purpose is here.

Haha, thanks however, I have actually found every post in this thread useful in some way or another. Thank you everyone for posting your two cents for me! Although some replies did directly address my original post more than others :p

I think that the OP intends to self-teach / do piano on his/her own now, but I think that the OP must have had a teacher in the past, given the ABRSM exams up to the grade 8 level, and a couple of other comments in the opening post.

Yes, sorry for not making this clear - I had a teacher for 10 years until I turned 18 and moved abroad. I like to think that some basic level of physical technique will still remain, (esp. since I've sat down at a random piano I run into in a train station/etc once in a while to have some fun) but I was/am just uncertain how to come up with a systematic program for improvement without the guidance of a teacher. Several posts in this thread have helped though - both with the type of stuff that's suited to self-teaching and how I should go about learning them

[amytsuda]

To me, OP's question and situation were very clear with his first post - I am sure his parents won't pay for piano lessons now he is an adult - he has to support himself! I wish OP to figure out ways to maintain and continue his piano study or music activities, while he builds his life. It sounds he has 60-80% of foundation. My feedback was the last 20-40% is the real challenge. It takes years of serious "professional" studying. You often see a kid enters a conservatory and comes out completely transformed. You won't achieve that by self-teaching on the side. I am not millennial (twice old), but when I came back to piano, I didn't realize how steep the learning curve is, from that 60-80% level. So I won't criticize OP for seeking advice from others.

[danimc]

Hi there nish81 and others.  I am in the same boat.  I just turned 50 and have recently returned to the piano after decades of being away.  I do not want to be a pro.  Can't afford lessons.  But I want to improve.  And I already have.

I sometimes get obsessed with the beauty of a piece I am listening to online.  It gets stuck in my mind, day and night, until I eventually go to the piano to try to replicate the beauty I am hearing.  Even though I am crappy at playing, I still keep trying, because I love the piece so much.  I have surprised myself by eventually being able to play difficult pieces that I never thought I would be able to in this lifetime.  The love of a particular melody can drive you to work very hard.

When I was a kid, you could not pay me to do scales and other daily drills.  Now I do them because I want to play the piece I am currently obsessing over better!  I want to hear (coming out of my own fingers) the song that is stuck in my head on repeat!